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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I had a "heated debate" with a "friend" of mine on another forum today. It got a little bit ugly as we compared our two cars.

He has a slightl modified 2004 Mazda 3. Some generic intake and generic cat-back I believe. I wanted to post it all here, and see what y'all think. I guess I was itching for a fight and I got it... Call me an idiot, but I'd like to get come insights as to where I may be wrong.

Him:

[email protected] dude for 12k less you can have a car thats much faster.

mazda3s - 14k + hiboost turbo kit - 4k vs. 18k vs. sti - 30k
300whp vs. 300bhp


Me:

Si is $19,000 .... 197 bhp / 180+- whp stock, WITHOUT turbo. with small mods you can get to 250 bhp easily probably, cold air and race header for example each add 10 hp give or take. $300 for the Intake, about $650 for the header and exhaust. AEM and DC Sports respectively. That's not even looking at the V2 Intake that's coming out shortly.

The I-VTECH seems a bit more effecient considering it's producing 200 hp and 140 lb torque at 2.0 liters, while most other engines are producing only 160 hp and less torque at 2.3 liters or more. Also you could argue the compression ratios have something to do with it, but they're both kinda high. 2.3 liters at 9.7:1 verses 2.0 liters at 11.0:1

note: on honda website, they're measuring HP differently this year. look for the *

Lowest figures i've seen dyno's for on a stock '06 Si is 186 whp. That's a 7% loss, if you want to use the figures on Honda's website which are 197 bhp. Of course like I've said, look for the *, the measured em differently this year.

I even heard of a guy getting quite a boost from just dropping a K&N filter in.

Here's some guy's post about when he dyno'd his stock '06 Si, for shits and giggles...
http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2261

Also, amazingly the Si can run a 14.7! at 95 mph. I don't have that link handy so we'll go with the ones I do have handy, which are 14.8 times. They're only rated as 15.1 cars. Here are some tickets for one guy who consistently put down 14.8's at least 3 times in one afternoon.

http://www.fgcoupe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=571)

I've yet to see any tickets from anyone who has an I/H/E setup. But I'm sure they're probably running mid 14's. To get any lower than that, a turbo and more is probably required. There is an artificial rev holder that's slowing down the Si's also, but if you're double clutching correctly it doesn't make a difference.

I believe the '04 Mazda 3 is rated to run a 16.3 stock.

Here's a 15.6 slip for a '04 Mazda 3 GT, that's got an AEM intake. All the times I've seen, Mazda 3 GT is faster than S.
http://www.dragtimes.com/Mazda-3-Timeslip-7118.html

Here's a good list of stock 1/4 mile ratings.
http://www.albeedigital.com/supercoupe/articles/0-60times.html

Of course, the more sources the better right?
(bottom of page, Mazda 3 1/4 mile times rated, 16.13 is fastest)
http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/Spec_Glance.aspx?year=2004&make=Mazda&model=Mazda3&trimid=-1
(Mazda 3, several models GT / GT Sport / S, and even a stock Mazda 3)
http://www.dragtimes.com/results.ph...ays=10000000&carmake=29&name=Search+DragTimes
(2006 Civic Si, and wtf a Hybrid!? lol both stock)
http://www.dragtimes.com/results.ph...ays=10000000&carmake=18&name=Search+DragTimes

On top of all of this, other features including the limited slip differential and short throw 6-speed make the car more versatile. Horsepower isn't everything, weight makes a difference of course. But both cars are the same weight, weighing in at about 2800 lbs each give or take. So why is the Civic faster? Does the 40 hp really make a 2 second time difference? I don't think so, it takes more than 40 hp to make even a 1 second time difference. Of course driving skill does influence 1/4 mile times, but not more than a few tenths of a second.

Given all of these numbers, a stock Si with I/H/E will probably run a 1/4 mile that's very close to a turbo'd Mazda3. I'll not make any assumptions on which one would be faster because I honestly dont know. I wish I could find a 1/4 mile time for a 300 whp Mazda3.

The only thing that sucks is waiting for the aftermarket to catch up with such a new model.


I guess what it comes down to is, yes the Si is more money. Costing about the same as a Mazda3 with a turbo and the works. But the Si is much faster at a stock configuration, meaning when it has a turbo and the works it'll be a much faster car. That is what the extra 5 grand is for. You get what you pay for I guess.

Turbo Kits for K20Z3 slated to be released by June or sooner. Since custom kits are being assembled now for about $3500. Bolt-on kits are estimated to be about $3000 give or take, even less perhaps. Note this is note reliable information here, just musings from across forums.


Him:

i believe you need to get your facts right

msrp for 06civic si is $19,990
destination $550 you will pay about [email protected]
bhp is 197 @7800rpm and [email protected]
curbweight 2877 lbs.


04mazda3s 4door

msrp $17,440
destination $0 you will pay about 18.5k
[email protected] and [email protected]
curbweight 2768 lbs.

additinally the standard warrenty on the si is 36months 36k miles. the 3s is 48 months 50k miles.

a few hours and a laptop w/ a program and 250bhp is easily attainable. The civic si's engine has been so tuned that further tuning will not produce more than 15bhp.
The problem with the civic is the engine internals have to be changed very early in the moding process, while the 3s' internals are more than capable of handle 400whp

basically the 3s is a more capable and cheaper tunning car than the civic si is.

the civic si's computer has many problems and will probably be redisigned next year. - car and driver magazine

while the exterior is looks like an 80's minivan...it is still a lot better looking than previous si's - road and track

dynoed by car and driver magazine - 176whp

urbantuner.com dynoed car with ice packs on intake manifold and hit 181whp

all specs come directly from manufactures websites. Everything that i have said in this post can be confirmed by at least 50 people. Please do not make up bullshit. such as telling me that your cars wieght is 2000 lbs. or that a stock civic si can run a 14.7

bottom line:
if you want a stock car the civic si pretty good, if you want a tunning car the 3s is a much better deal.


me again...maybe I'll post more later...
 

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what are you trying to say bud? peanut butter and jelly aren't meant to be together, is that it? psh....people.

i thought mazda 3's had like 130 hp or something, more like a regular civic, maybe im wrong.
 

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Acorns!
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His kit is available and makes about 240whp @ 8psi....cost is about $4000+shipping.
off a mazda forum.

They go on to say how the engine can take 400whp to the wheels stock! I don't think so. I HIGHLY doubt anyone could produce 400WHP out of a mazda 3 turbo setup with a stock engine. If it did - it would probably blow at any moment.

As for the SI - have whoever look at the rsx boards. There are plenty of people producing 400-500+ WHP out of the RSX-S engine. Yes, they are doing it with hondata, turbos, lower compression pistons, etc - but possible.

off the clubrsx site - just looked for 2 seconds
1/4 Mile: 13.11 @111
11.7 a 120 MPH


379whp 293 ft lbs @10psi
320whp 221wtq. 9psi
505 WHP 430wtq - 22psi

645 WHP @ 28 psi- First pass was 11.6 sec - couldn't hook up (gee - I wonder why)

If you think for one second the motor in the SI is not capable of producing huge HP #'s then you are highly mistaking. Let your mazda 3 buddy chew on that. The aftermarket world concentrates MUCH higher on honda than mazda. Not that there is anything wrong with mazda, but Honda has been known as a tuning car. The aftermarket world goes after honda - it's a fact. You'll see way more parts out for the civic than you will the mazda 3 any day.
 

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Acorns!
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dotcom173 said:
what are you trying to say bud? peanut butter and jelly aren't meant to be together, is that it? psh....people.

i thought mazda 3's had like 130 hp or something, more like a regular civic, maybe im wrong.
160hp/150tq rated from the factory
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
I'm going by what my research has given me, and people have been reporting between 8 and 14 hp gains from the AEM intake. And with the DC Sports Race Header and exhaust, which eliminates the cat., they've been reporting another 6 - 12 hp gains. So I averaged them and said 10 hp each. But of course it's not personal experience, and I made it clear in my post that it wasn't fact but just deduction from evidence I've gathered.

P.S. Thanks for the backing webby! the K series engines are even more capable than previous years, B series. The F series in the S2k's are almost as good as the K's? so I've heard either way actually, but there is a virtually unlimited number of B series mod's out there, and the K20's are not going to be any less popular i think. Both the RSX, Civic, and Accord are using the K series now I believe. There's no shortage of demand. I'd take a Honda engine over a Mazda engine any day, for reliability alone.

lol I've been researching and asking questions about everything lately, and I've learned a tremendous amount since I got my car a week ago. I soak this **** up like a sponge with holes. :D
 

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webby said:
160hp/150tq rated from the factory

ya, i checked the mazda site after i posted, i was just too lazy to correct myself. hmm, i totally ruled out mazda 3's when looking for cars, but maybe i should look at them again......naaaaa. american cars.....psh, who needs em.
 

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yah mazdas suck after they quit the production of the RX-7's. after that mazda just blew balls.thats how i see it.the Rx-8 isnt even a worthy predecessor to the Rx-7. its sad........i guess wut im trying to say is mazdas arent even toight anymore.but the Rx-7 will always have a place in my heart. :driving:
 

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ChinoiSI said:
yah mazdas suck after they quit the production of the RX-7's. after that mazda just blew balls.thats how i see it.the Rx-8 isnt even a worthy predecessor to the Rx-7. its sad........i guess wut im trying to say is mazdas arent even toight anymore.but the Rx-7 will always have a place in my heart. :driving:
i think we all can agree with you! :) have you seen the new rx-7 that is coming out, i havent yet adjusted to it but we'll see... :rolleyes:
 

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my head was spinning after reading all of this..whoa..the Si is a better car nuff said!
 

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As for the cost difference:

Cost of Vehicle = Purchase price - value of car when you sell it.

Now I have no numbers to back up my next assertion, but I will assert anyway. I betcha that the Mazda depreciates a whole lot faster than the Honda. If that is in fact the case then you should be able to get more for your Honda than the other dude will for his Mazda and thus the cost of your Honda will be LESS than the Mazda.

Also:

Chances of Honda going out of business any time soon = Snowball's chance in Hell.

Chances of Mazda going out of business any time soon = Keep an eye on your newspaper.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Mazda is owned by Ford well 33.45 % which is the most an american company can own a japanese company. But Mazda is in complete control by Ford. Ford is the only thing keeping Mazda afloat. Wouldn't be surprised if they cut em loose soon to elimate the money drain.

Point #1....Ford blows....
Point #2....Ford bailed Mazda out 22 years ago, by buying their American operations for $1 Billion. That was 22 years ago..... They completely control Mazda, in fact it's under American management.
Point #3....Mazda loses more and more sales every year by the 10's of millions....
Point #4....I'm preaching the choir....Amen


Look it up folks...like he said right above me...keep an eye on your newspaper.



Another quick note. Since I've been "attacking" on specific Mazda Model, the 2004 Mazda 3 S, 4 Door Sedan. I am now going to give you trade in values, straight from Kelly Blue Book.

Typical Miles: 33,000
Excellent Condition!
5 Speed
Trade in Value: $11,000
MSRP New: $17,000 (NOT fully equiped)


Now I just totalled a 2002 Civic EX Coup. I was very pleasently surprised when my insurance company decided it was worth $13,000 !!! That was after it lost value because I had more than was typical miles, which they said was 48,000. ALSO that was the average value between TWO state certified sources that insurance companies are allowed to use in the state of PA (KBB isn't one of them, I asked).

I paid $15,000 for it almost 4 years ago brand new. It was one of the last on the lot, best time to buy. Fully loaded also.

But anyway, Kelly Blue Book

Typical Miles: 59,000 (I had 58,900 or some such)
Excellent Condition!
5 Speed
Trade in Value: $10,000
MSRP: $17,000 (Fully equiped!)



I'll leave the rest of the obvious for someone else to have fun with....

enjoy
 

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ScorchedHands said:
Mazda is owned by Ford well 33.45 % which is the most an american company can own a japanese company. But Mazda is in complete control by Ford. Ford is the only thing keeping Mazda afloat. Wouldn't be surprised if they cut em loose soon to elimate the money drain.

Point #1....Ford blows....
Point #2....Ford bailed Mazda out 22 years ago, by buying their American operations for $1 Billion. That was 22 years ago..... They completely control Mazda, in fact it's under American management.
Point #3....Mazda loses more and more sales every year by the 10's of millions....
Point #4....I'm preaching the choir....Amen


Look it up folks...like he said right above me...keep an eye on your newspaper.



Another quick note. Since I've been "attacking" on specific Mazda Model, the 2004 Mazda 3 S, 4 Door Sedan. I am now going to give you trade in values, straight from Kelly Blue Book.

Typical Miles: 33,000
Excellent Condition!
5 Speed
Trade in Value: $11,000
MSRP New: $17,000 (NOT fully equiped)


Now I just totalled a 2002 Civic EX Coup. I was very pleasently surprised when my insurance company decided it was worth $13,000 !!! That was after it lost value because I had more than was typical miles, which they said was 48,000. ALSO that was the average value between TWO state certified sources that insurance companies are allowed to use in the state of PA (KBB isn't one of them, I asked).

I paid $15,000 for it almost 4 years ago brand new. It was one of the last on the lot, best time to buy. Fully loaded also.

But anyway, Kelly Blue Book

Typical Miles: 59,000 (I had 58,900 or some such)
Excellent Condition!
5 Speed
Trade in Value: $10,000
MSRP: $17,000 (Fully equiped!)



I'll leave the rest of the obvious for someone else to have fun with....

enjoy

stop being a fan boy. You're so called "facts" are really your own opinions and are far from the truth.

Ford owns 33.4% of Mazda. How is that "complete control" over Mazda? True that because of Ford management Mazda has been able to prosper, however in no way does Ford have "complete control". It's viewed more as a partnership than ownership.

http://media.ford.com/mazda/article_display.cfm?article_id=18642

Read the last line from the press release.

Supported by strong vehicle sales in nearly all global markets, Mazda posted its best financial results in a decade during fiscal year 2003, which closed March 31, 2004. Mazda sold over 1,068,000 vehicles during calendar year 2003 and, according to industry sources, was the fastest growing car company in the world during that period.
Riiiiight...I can see that they're losing 10's of millions each year. I'll definitely keep my eye out in the paper...:eek:hnoes:

The Mazda 3 was completely designed by Mazda Japan. They share some parts with other Ford vehicles such as the platform and perhaps the block but the rest is complete Mazda design. The car is almost 95% built in Japan. That's more than you can say for the American built "Japanese" Civic.

I'm not taking sides on the Civic or the Mazda 3 but stop being so biased. If you're going to compare the two though, at lease compare apples to apples. The Mazdaspeed 3 is more of a comparison to the SI (both being performance versions) so watch out for that.:thumb:
 

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Both are probably good tuner car choises, but when it all comes down to it when you want to sell, Hondas fetch more money than the Mazda will!!!
 

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we will see in this bout, until the aftermarket catches up with the civic itll be imposible to know for sure. BTW someone show me a Mazda 3 doing 300 hp at the wheels.
 

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j3hff said:
im telling you now.. each mod.. intake and headers wont give you 10 each.. i bet 10 all together.. MAYBE
Actually they're getting around 10whp with an intake and 15+whp with RH.

Also, this car is a four cylinder. Can you please tell me where the headers are?

 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
(I assume you're talking about the Si) RH replaces stock exhaust, if you've got an Si look on the rear of the engine (closests to the firewall i mean) it's quite obvious. That peice would be replaced by the Race header. The race headers for the Si, require you to replace the entire exhaust system. The header goes down to almost the cat, and does not line up with the stock exhaust. The replacement exhaust replaces the cat with a straight pipe.


goto dc sports and take a look at the race header and exhaust.
 

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i believe he was being sarcastic. headers as in plural. there is only one so its a header, singular.
 
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