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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Recently dropped my FG2 off at a shop in Denver to have some work done. S2S2 cams, Skunk2 valvetrain, Port IM, Port Match TBS and TB, 410cc injectors, spark plugs, Hondata IMG, and a tune. Currently running CAI, CT-shorty header, Random tech HFC, Skunk2 70mm exhaust, TBS/TBGs. To my dismay I received a call saying that the car is loosing power and they were tuning it for 6hours!!! The final numbers were is was making 180whp on a Dynojet. The mechanic/tuner said that same car with just an intake and exhaust should be making 190ish. He didn't know that I had provided him with the Skunk2 Stage2s, and he told me that the only way to run those Stage 2's up here is with increased compression. He said 12:1 would work. In order to do that is another whole can of worms that I didn't have the money to do at the time. So I was left with four options....have the original cams put back in, get stage 1's installed, have the car as is, or raise my compression to 12:1. I went with the stage 1's because I saw on a thread here that the Stage 2's really didn't do too much over the stage 1's. Hopefully the car will be done this Friday so I can post my dyno, and finally be in the 200+whp club:dancing:
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I know, but I want to stay street legal. Also this is in Denver elevation 5XXX ft or so. I live up at 8,150ft. It is because of the lack of air up here. This setup would work perfectly fine down lets say in Texas, Arizona cause they are closer to sea level. Unfortunately up in higher altitudes the air is thinner, so to compensate I would have had to raise my compression to 12.5:1 to see the gains that I want to see
 

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Did they tune with a MAP only calibration or the MAF/MAP setup?
MAPs don't work well up high. Tune with MAF.

There is no way that a Stock car should pull more power (on the same dyno/same shop) than yours unless something is wrong with the tune or the motor itself.

More air is more air which when tuned properly should equal more power. I think their higher compression piston talk is a bunch of mumbo jumbo. With higher compression pistons you actually ask the motor to work harder to compress the same amount of air so the gain you are getting out of the higher compression pistons with stock cams is going to pretty pretty damn close to that of aftermarket cams.

Mild Aftermarket cams want a greater flowing head, not necessarily higher compression pistons. Now if we were talkin stage 3s or race cams, then we are talkin long duration cams which you basically have to port the head and intake manifold b/c you are choking the cams.

In all my years with cars, even with turbo cars, have I ever heard from a credible source:
"you need to run more boost to use those cams" or
"you need more compression to run those stage 2s to make power".. .

For NA it's typically "you need to decrease your motors restrictions to run those cams effectively"

I think you are gettin TOOK!
 

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That doesn't make a lot of sense to me either. I agree that the header is going to severely limit the power you are going to make but its not going to rob you of 30whp.

If you want to email me your .kal I can have the mad scientists look it over. [email protected].:corona:
 

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the altitude will take a toll on peak power but regardless you should be making more power than before with the right supporting mods.

i had these cams combined with a dc race header and a small 60mm exhaust on my ep3. i had vtec coming in around 6000 due to the heavy restriction on the exhaust side. the midrange and top end woke up when i switched to a better flowing header and a 70mm exhaust. vtec dropped back to 5300. these cams liked a lot of overlap even on the low cam.

these cams are big and make great power but you need a really good flowing header/exhaust combo.
 

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your header is robbing you of power like mad. CT-E shorty header with a cat on it is basically doing nothing at all.

You should still easily make more power than stock.
 

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It took them 6 hours of tuning to figure out you needed to tear apart your short block to bump the compression to run s2s2's..awesome..

I would have immediately got my car out of that place..
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I forgot to mention that I got the set of Stage 2 cams from this site. I brought them with me and had them wrapped up when I dropped off the car. The Mechanic/tuner didn't know that they were Stage 2 cams, he just knew they were Skunk2 cams. He didn't know that they were Stage 2's until he started to tune the car and something wasn't right. The shop is very familar with Hondata Flashpro and they are an offical Skunk2 dealer. He said had he known that the were Stage 2's he wouldn't have even put them in because of the aformentioned. I asked if I ported my head would it make a difference and he said no. They have done alot of civics up here and the only way to run that setup in the ROCKY MOUNTAINS would be to have a 12.5:1 compression. You have to understand even before i dropped my car off....that the car is so much faster and stronger pulling vechicle when i come down to Denver, CO. When I go back up to the mountains it feels like its loosing power, and I know that it is the lack of air. Trust me all these people that are not taking in effect of elevation. I have driven the car from Illinois to the Rocky Mountains and there is a difference in the way it behaves. Big difference coming from 500-1000ft. of elevation to 5200ft. Denver and 8150ft. Vail, CO. Look the point that Im trying to get at is the shop I took it too has done work with and completely understands the amount of elevation change that can go on in this state. He told me once he was done with the car originally that if I were to drive to Nebraska and have it tuned again there. I would pick up 40 or so whp. Its just not fair to be living up here in the mountains. I really truely love NA civics sound perform etc. etc.... I truely believe thats the way they were intended on being, but I find myself heavily considering FI and slapping a SC on. Also the shop is Pretty Much Awesome cause they put 6 hours of tuning into the car and they are not charging me for it. So please do not talk trash about this shop. I have asked my dad as well as my uncle who are both credible people to ask when it comes to cars. My uncle is a master mechanic for Honda. I trust completely what he says, the man builds cars/trucks/imports at work, and has a lift in his garage where he does custom work on the side.

Skunk2Brian I wish I would have put this up earlier cause probably could have used your help, but if you look up the authorized dealers of Skunk2 site, there is Import Sports of Denver, CO is where I took my car to. I spoke with Phil and Sam. Sam is the one that did the work to the car. He said that he has done lots of testing with Skunk2 so he is very familar with Skunk2 products as well as Hondata Flashpro. He has the car and the parts arrive today so if you could give him a call, Im sure that he could share the cal. with you
 

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Why do you want cams if you don't have a race header?

put cams after a race header. With a short header they will not work :readtherules:

They need to breath well = good intake, good header and exhaust.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Do you even have emissions in your country? I have already received multple tickets from this car before I had work done. Try explaining to a cop why you took off your cat. I have been told by three different cops on three different occasions that I need to have it put back to stock
 

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Ported IM?? I'm wondering if something is up with that. A bad port job could create added turbulance which will decrease intake flow.


Elevation or not, to make stage II cams work, you shouldn't have to bump the compression to get the SAME power as a stock car ON THE SAME DYNO!. That's some kind of Black Magic to me if that can actually be proven with actaul "Science" not theory, I want the details. Longer duration cams = more air. Add more fuel = more power. The OEM head flows well enough to take advantage of Stage II cams all the way to 230whp on any dyno. Pretty sure someone hit 280whp on a dynapack with an unported head and intake manifold before(large TB though).

The back pressure on the motor with your current exhaust setup is not causing a loss in power. That's not how it works. Air/Gas will follow the path of least restriction and that isn't back up into your motor.. .

I don't claim to be an expert at tuning, but something isn't adding up here.

If the shop is adding stage 1s and you get 10whp over what a Stock car dyno'd at. I still think you are getting took.. . Sounds like you wont even see a 10whp gain over stock(on same dyno/shop) with Stage 1s.

Make sure to post up results when you get done.
 

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It took them 6 hours of tuning to figure out you needed to tear apart your short block to bump the compression to run s2s2's..awesome..

I would have immediately got my car out of that place..
For experience sometimes takes time to figure out what happen the tuner only want to resolve the problem and try to keep the costumer happy!!!

In the all motor world sometimes you think ok i put those cam and that header and bump 20hp+ nop you wrong you need to make step by step

Good luck sir!!!
 

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For experience sometimes takes time to figure out what happen the tuner only want to resolve the problem and try to keep the costumer happy!!!

In the all motor world sometimes you think ok i put those cam and that header and bump 20hp+ nop you wrong you need to make step by step

Good luck sir!!!
i agree. more often than not, people tend to think that one mod on top of another, on top of another should yield more peak hp and that's not necessarily the case.

one case say 'oh the switch to e85 should net me 10 hp and stage 2 cams should net me 20 hp and a ported intake manifold another 10 hp'

but unfortunately that's just not the case. you will eventually hit a ceiling where something is limiting you from making more power and it will have to be addressed.

remember that bigger isn't always better. sometimes you're better off keeping it simple :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Thanks Jo Tech and B.r.i.a.n.. I have seen a lot of your guys work on the ocho and it means a lot to hear something intelligent come from people who work in the industry.
 
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