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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
It seems like the 8th Gen community is starting to dip into the Meth/Water injection market and I thought it would be appropriate to get a Q&A thread started. I've had a decent amount of experience with them when I had my Evo and would like to think I can answer a decent amount of questions.

I've only dealt with Snow Performance and it seems that some others have started using them as well. They're a great company and offer a great product.

Lets get this thread started...

[some links]
http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/forc...rformance-stage-2-kit-installed-pics-too.html
http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/forc...re-use-meth-water-system-threads-merged.html?
http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/forced-induction-nitrous/124994-hmm-where-mount-water-meth-kit.html
http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/forc...15476-knock-knock-who-s-there-detonation.html

One More From CRSX
Water/Methanol Injection Supercharged Q/A - Club RSX Message Board
 

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cool.. obviously this allows you to run more boost safely at our high compression but.
A. does it lower boost or simply drop temps?
B. since this is us CT guys only option for cooling as our manifolds have no aftercooler available.. how safe is it?
if i use it running 9psi would i see a substantial hp increase from the reduced intake temps or would it only benefit higher boost apps such as above 9psi.. cuz i dont wanna boost higher then that on stock internals.. even if temps are cold..

thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
cool.. obviously this allows you to run more boost safely at our high compression but.
A. does it lower boost or simply drop temps?
B. since this is us CT guys only option for cooling as our manifolds have no aftercooler available.. how safe is it?
if i use it running 9psi would i see a substantial hp increase from the reduced intake temps or would it only benefit higher boost apps such as above 9psi.. cuz i dont wanna boost higher then that on stock internals.. even if temps are cold..

thanks.
A.) The main objective of the water/meth kits is simply to cool the motor down. In gasoline engines, as with any intercooler, this suppresses detonation so more power producing boost and timing can be utilized. Water cools the intake charge and combustion. Methanol cools the charge and combustion but also acts like an extremely high octane fuel (some researchers claim as high as 120 octane) as well as adding more oxygen to combustion. This technique has been used in rally cross for many years and started off by spraying very small amounts of water into the motor. The small amounts were able to keep the motor running cooler. So in response to your question its going to keep the motor temps down which in turn allows you to run more boost safely. I think you're going to need to worry about pulleys and what the S/C can actually produce rather than what the meth kit can cool. I was running about 28psi on my Evo with meth.

B.) As for horsepower increase I'm not sure if you're going to see a huge HP gain. Remember this is cooling your motor which in turn can provide longevity to your motor. As far as how safe the kit is, well i think they're very safe. Providing that they are installed correctly and that you are using the right components for your setup. Again when running a boosted application I think having the meth there just as a cooling additive makes the motor operate more efficiently.

Hope this helps...lets keep the questions coming.

And BTW by no means am I an expert or what I say the end all say all. I'm just trying to add some insight to my experiences and what I've seen.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
whats the price range on this?
Depends on what Stage Kit you decide to go, what brand, and obviously from who you buy it from. Stage 1 kit (Snow Performance) is going to cost you between 250-300. You're also going to need methanol itself which you can also buy from snow, called "boost juice" and I think it's $50.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
New tidbit of info I've read up on. It seems that the guys who can only obtain 91 octane find that they have to pull crazy amounts of timing to prevent knock. After adding the water/meth kit they were able to restore the timing and up the boost.

Something to think about...
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Month old thread bump. Lets keep the communication channels on this open -- some really "cool" stuff here.
 

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While that may sound funny detonation and pre-ignition are certainly no joke when it comes to supercharged, turbocharged and naturally aspirated engines. As you probably already know, detonation (aka “knock”) is a serious concern in the world of forced induction engines and can often lead to blown head gaskets, pitting of pistons, scored cylinders or even worse, catastrophic engine failure such as broken connecting rods and pistons if left untreated. With the addition of a supercharger or turbocharger, you must take additional measures to avoid it. Normally, the common solution is higher-octane fuels or some form of intercooler (i.e. air-to-air or air-to-water). But, before we get ahead of ourselves, let’s start from the beginning.

What is normal combustion?
Before we can understand detonation and pre-ignition we must first discuss and understand the normal combustion process. Under ideal conditions, the common internal combustion piston gasoline engine burns it's air/fuel mixture in the cylinder in an orderly and controlled fashion.

Normal combustion is started at the spark plug some 15-40 crankshaft degrees prior to TDC (top dead center) depending on rpm and engine load. The spark plug produces an electrical spark that jumps a small gap from it's center electrode to it's ground electrode. This spark, if the air/fuel mix is within the ideal flammable range for the fuel, initiates combustion. The initial phase forms a small flame kernel approximately the size of the spark plug gap. For the first few milliseconds of the combustion process, this flame kernel is struggling to survive, producing only slightly more heat than is necessary to continue the combustion process. As it grows in size its heat output increases, allowing it to grow even faster. After this early slow burn phase passes, the flame kernel grows much faster, expanding rapidly across the combustion chamber. During this process, the flame kernel transforms from it's original small round flame kernel into complex fingers of burning fuel. These fingers have a much greater surface area than a simple spherical ball of flame would have, thus greatly accelerating the combustion process.

This is why ignition advance is necessary as it allows time for the flame front to travel and move throughout the air/fuel mixture and combustion chamber at a rate ideal for the engine at that rpm and load..

During this process, the piston is continuing on it's way to top dead center in which it is further compressing this burning air/fuel mixture and expanding gases. Cylinder pressures rapidly increase as the piston makes it‘s way up and over TDC (top dead center). It's at this point in which it begins to use this power to drive the piston down on what's called the "power stroke". Actual maximum cylinder pressure is achieved a few crankshaft degree's after the piston passes TDC. There by giving the piston a harder push when its speed and mechanical advantage on the crank shaft gives the best recovery of force from the expanding gases.

This is normal combustion.

What is detonation?
Detonation occurs when the air/fuel mixture that is ahead of the flame front ignites before the flame front arrives. It is believed the air/fuel mixture ahead of the flame front self ignites due to the pressure and heat of the advancing original flame front. Under these conditions, the combustion becomes uncontrolled and sporadic, producing a violent explosion that creates a “pinging” or “knock “ sound. During this process, cylinder pressures can raise rapidly, beyond the limits of the pistons or rods, leading to engine failure. If your luck only the head gasket will blow out.

What is pre-ignition?
Pre-ignition is a different phenomenon from detonation as explained above. It occurs when the air/fuel mixture in the cylinder (or even just entering the cylinder) ignites before the spark plug fires. This pre-ignition is caused by an ignition source other than the spark plug. Such alternate ignition sources include, excessive heat and pressure. Spark plugs with a heat range too hot for the conditions. Spark plugs with to high of a heat range will run hot enough to burn off deposits that lead to plug fouling in a worn engine, but the electrode of the plug itself can occasionally heat soak, and begin glowing hot enough to become an uncontrolled ignition source on its own. Another common source is carbon build up in a combustion chamber. Carbon build up can also become heat soaked to the point where it is glowing red hot and ignite the air-fuel mixture before the proper time. Under these circumstances, known as "pre-ignition", the piston will be traveling up towards an on coming wave of exploding gases. This places a tremendous amount of pressure on top of the pistons and on down to the connecting rods and crankshaft. These are the most unfavorable kinds of conditions, which can bend and break connecting rods, score cylinder walls, break piston rings/lands, destroy pistons and worse complete catastrophic engine failure.

So What Does Water Alcohol Injection Have To Do With All Of This?
In simple terms, it protects your engine and the investment you have in it, by reducing and eliminating engine damaging detonation and pre-ignition, while safely increasing horsepower. How does it do it? Here’s a quick summary below.

Benefits Of Water Alcohol/Methanol Injection:

Lower air charge temperatures by 40-150+ degrees
Increase your fuel’s octane by 8-20+ points
Increase horsepower safely by 10-15%
Allows you to safely run more boost and timing
Removes carbon build-up from combustion chambers, pistons and valves
Longer more stable combustion expansion and progression
Reduces and helps eliminate engine damaging detonation and pre-ignition
No need for expensive racing fuel or additives
Lower Air Charge Temperatures By 50-150+ Degrees
By injecting a fine mist of water and alcohol/methanol directly into the engines incoming air charge, it has a substantial cooling effect. As the water alcohol/methanol injection mixes with the hot incoming air charge, it quickly converts from a liquid state to a gas state (steam). In doing so, it absorbs significant amounts of heat from the air charge. Depending on the build of the motor, whether naturally aspirated, supercharged or turbocharged; intercooled or non-intercooled, decreases in air charge temperatures will vary between 40-150+ degrees with cylinder temperatures dropping as much as 300 degree’s.

When combined with engines already out-fitted with air-to-air or air-to-water intercoolers, users will experience lower decreases (approx. 40-80+ degrees) in air charge temperatures due to the intercooler already removing a large portion of the heat from the air charge. While initial air temperature drops are not as significant as non-intercooled engines, lower overall air charge temperatures are achieved. Testing has shown that when combined with either air-to-air or air-to-water intercoolers on supercharged or turbocharged engines, nearly all the negative added heat from the supercharger or turbocharger can be removed. Imagine running 8-14 PSI without any of the added heat from the supercharger or turbocharger. That’s safe reliable horsepower on pump gas!

Increase Your Fuels Octane By 10-20+ Points
Many of you will be surprised by this. When injected properly, water alone will not only significantly cool down the air charge temperatures, but will also act as a very high-octane booster. Read that again if you need too. Researchers estimate up to a 20-point raise in octane can be achieved by using water injection with 87-93 octane gas. No need for expensive racing fuels or octane boosters. A simple water injection system will significantly cool down your air charge temperatures, while dramatically increasing your fuels octane. The best part is, water is free and racing gas is notoriously expensive.

So, how does it work? Well, it’s not as simple as hooking up a water hose and pouring it in to the intake of your engine. Wouldn’t that be interesting? No, it must be sprayed in a controlled manner at the right time, into the intake air charge in a fine mist so that it can properly mix with the air/fuel charge. Since water does not burn, it effectively increases the fuels octane by increasing the fuels ability to resist self-igniting under higher pressures and hotter cylinder temperatures. Octane rating is nothing more than how much the fuel can be compressed before it spontaneously ignites. That’s why pumping 116 octane racing fuel into your grandmas 1980 Toyota Corona won’t turn it into a race car.

What Sort Of Mix Should I Run?
Depending on your application, you can use anything from 100% water to 100% alcohol/methanol and anything in between (i.e. 30% water and 70% alcohol/methanol). When using pure alcohol or methanol, greater decreases in air charge temperatures with higher increases in octane can be achieved. However, when used by them selves and not mixed with at least 40% water, alcohol and methanol are extremely flammable. For this reason, we recommend a 50/50 of water and alcohol/methanol mix, as it is no longer a flammable liquid, yet still achieves optimal results.

Increase Horsepower Safely By Up To 10-15%
Most significantly, initial horsepower increases are due primarily to the significant reductions in air charge temperatures offered by water alcohol/methanol injection. Along with the initial cooler aircharge temperature, comes a denser air charge. This creates a greater expansion of power within the cylinder, since pressure is directly proportional to temperature. The combustion process also turns the water droplets into a vapor which also helps to create a pressure raise (much in the same way as does a steam engine) and prevents the temperatures in the combustion from rushing to a sharp peak (as it does in a standard engine) and then dropping off. Instead, the combustion heat increases more slowly, reaching a lower peak temperature and descending more gradually. In addition, the longer overall combustion duration creates more pressure than does a standard engine’s cycle.

Allows You To Safely Run More Boost And Timing
Due to the significantly cooler air charge temperatures, cooler cylinder temperatures and dramatic increase in octane offered by a water alcohol/methanol injection system; users can now safely run higher amounts of boost with more timing then ever before without it.

Removes Carbon Build Up On Pistons And ValvesOne of the side effects of water alcohol/methanol injection is the “steam cleaning” effect it has on combustion chambers, pistons and valves. With a water alcohol methanol injection system you can help reduce and remove carbon deposit/build-up in your combustion chambers. This reduces the chances of developing carbon deposits in the combustion chamber, which can become heat soaked and lead to pre-ignition as described earlier on.

Conclusion
The benefits from a simple water alcohol/methanol injection are so remarkable it’s hard now to imagine running a supercharged or turbocharged system without one. Regardless, if it’s equipped with an intercooler already. Below is a summery of these benefits.

Reduces air charge temperatures by 50-150+ degrees
Reduces cylinder temperatures by up to 300+ degrees
Increases your 87-93 octane pump gas by 8-20+ points
Allows you to safely run more boost and timing
Longer more stable combustion expansion and progression
Removes carbon build-up from combustion chambers, pistons and valves
Reduces and helps eliminate engine damaging detonation and pre-ignition
No need for expensive racing fuel or additives
Protect your motor and the investment you have
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
^^^ Really good info here. A must read if you're just getting started. Lots to learn here people. :dance:
 

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whats the price range on this?
Stage 1 (which basically is an on/off setup and good for low boost setups like S/C kits) is about $260 plus shipping.

Snow Performance Stage 1 Boost Cooler - Excelerate Performance - Japanese and European Performance Specialists!!

Stage 2 (which has 2 settings; first setting injects 10% and the injection amount ramps up progressively until the second setting when it finally hits 100%) is about $420 or so plus shipping.

Snow Performance Stage 2 Boost Cooler MAF - Excelerate Performance - Japanese and European Performance Specialists!!

In reference to gains, you can see anywhere from 10-20% hp gains depending on the tune and vehicle.
 
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