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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello Guys,

I'm wondering if someone can explain something to me.

Why is the timing retarded so much from 1000-2000 rpm, 26.4-23.9mBar, compared to the rest of the table?

I am getting many knock counts when driving around at 2000 rpm, I think because it's blending the low ignition timing value (15 degrees) with the high timing (+_30 degrees). I bumped the high timing area down 1/2 a degree and it reduced the knock count a lot, but im still getting some knock there.
 

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What tuning software are you using? Didn't look like flashpro. So you have any logs with said knock? Can you provide more background? Is the car tune? If so by who? What model (assuming an Si).
 

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Hello Guys,

I'm wondering if someone can explain something to me.

Why is the timing retarded so much from 1000-2000 rpm, 26.4-23.9mBar, compared to the rest of the table?

I am getting many knock counts when driving around at 2000 rpm, I think because it's blending the low ignition timing value (15 degrees) with the high timing (+_30 degrees). I bumped the high timing area down 1/2 a degree and it reduced the knock count a lot, but im still getting some knock there.
244601


This is the base civic map or the hondata one, one or the other. As you can see, that ignition is also retarded. My guess is for less jerkiness in 1st gear and better scavenging at idle, but I am not sure. You are using K-Pro?

There's also about a dozen reasons you could be getting knock. It's probably not because your VTC gear cannot rotate 10 degrees in the time it takes you to get from 2000 to 3000 rpm; it goes about 10 degrees in .1 seconds.

Anecdotal example of why that is not the cause, last night I was tuning my low cam, and I had my first 4 horizontal rows set to 0, and the rest set to 40. No knock at the crossover, which is a more extreme example of your test cause. Add 2% fuel to cylinder 2+3 and reduce timing by 2 degrees in the same, datalog again and post back.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Hello Guys,

I'm wondering if someone can explain something to me.

Why is the timing retarded so much from 1000-2000 rpm, 26.4-23.9mBar, compared to the rest of the table?

I am getting many knock counts when driving around at 2000 rpm, I think because it's blending the low ignition timing value (15 degrees) with the high timing (+_30 degrees). I bumped the high timing area down 1/2 a degree and it reduced the knock count a lot, but im still getting some knock there.
What tuning software are you using? Didn't look like flashpro. So you have any logs with said knock? Can you provide more background? Is the car tune? If so by who? What model (assuming an Si).
its tuned on a ktuner, Ive just played with the stock tune mostly, like lowered vtec to 4500, and adjusted the VTC, and leaned out the fuel 2 points off of WOT fuel. Im not having any knocking in the area that Ive changed. So basically i have only touched the high tables.

I also adjusted the low VTC to transition into vtec smoother.

Basically what im saying is I am getting many knocks in an area of the map that honda set.

It is an SI with 370000km or 230miles lol, valve lash is good, run it on 91 in Canada (may still be anti freeze properties in our gas) and it is bone stock.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
View attachment 244601

This is the base civic map or the hondata one, one or the other. As you can see, that ignition is also retarded. My guess is for less jerkiness in 1st gear and better scavenging at idle, but I am not sure. You are using K-Pro?

There's also about a dozen reasons you could be getting knock. It's probably not because your VTC gear cannot rotate 10 degrees in the time it takes you to get from 2000 to 3000 rpm; it goes about 10 degrees in .1 seconds.

Anecdotal example of why that is not the cause, last night I was tuning my low cam, and I had my first 4 horizontal rows set to 0, and the rest set to 40. No knock at the crossover, which is a more extreme example of your test cause. Add 2% fuel to cylinder 2+3 and reduce timing by 2 degrees in the same, datalog again and post back.
I have been just retarded the timing by half a degree every time i have rhe laptop out, and it does reduce the knock count, but I will add some fuel to #3, because thats where 95% of my knock count comes from.

The table i posted is the stock map for an 06 SI low cam @ 0 degree VTC. Ive started from the stock map and tuned off of that, never used any of the limited Ktuner base maps.
 

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I have been just retarded the timing by half a degree every time i have rhe laptop out, and it does reduce the knock count, but I will add some fuel to #3, because thats where 95% of my knock count comes from.

The table i posted is the stock map for an 06 SI low cam @ 0 degree VTC. Ive started from the stock map and tuned off of that, never used any of the limited Ktuner base maps.
The knock tables are more sensitive in the middle cylinders if you believe the community, and it would make sense considering the knock sensor is directly to the starboard side of cylinder 2. TSX cams are tuned this way to make them quieter, just thought it may help. I personally always get the last 1/2 degrees out of my tunes with cylinder and gear trim, some people think it's bad form to use them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
The knock tables are more sensitive in the middle cylinders if you believe the community, and it would make sense considering the knock sensor is directly to the starboard side of cylinder 2. TSX cams are tuned this way to make them quieter, just thought it may help. I personally always get the last 1/2 degrees out of my tunes with cylinder and gear trim, some people think it's bad form to use them.
I had originally tried taking 1/2 a degree out of cylinder 3 however i could the feel engine shaking after that change so i havent touched cylinder trims. Ill try it again, maybe it was just in my head.
 

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I had originally tried taking 1/2 a degree out of cylinder 3 however i could the feel engine shaking after that change so i havent touched cylinder trims. Ill try it again, maybe it was just in my head.
Post up your config and lets take a look-see. Mod list is helpful but not needed EDIT:"It is an SI with 370000km or 230miles lol, valve lash is good, run it on 91 in Canada (may still be anti freeze properties in our gas) and it is bone stock. "

At that mileage there is some rubber that is probably degraded. Probably notice it more at cold start due to increased idle and low oil pressure.
 

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Also...
its tuned on a ktuner, Ive just played with the stock tune mostly, like lowered vtec to 4500, and adjusted the VTC, and leaned out the fuel 2 points off of WOT fuel. Im not having any knocking in the area that Ive changed. So basically i have only touched the high tables.
Are you saying you have not changed your low cam angles to match the ramp up to ~40-45 degrees @ 4500 for the new VTEC crossover?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Also...


Are you saying you have not changed your low cam angles to match the ramp up to ~40-45 degrees @ 4500 for the new VTEC crossover?
I meant to say I've only touched the high ignition tables, I have no played with the low cam ignition tables other than retarding it in knock spots. My low and high VTC angle is 35 degrees @ VTEC, and increases to 45 degrees gradually until 6K, where I start to taper it off.
 

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I meant to say I've only touched the high ignition tables, I have no played with the low cam ignition tables other than retarding it in knock spots. My low and high VTC angle is 35 degrees @ VTEC, and increases to 45 degrees gradually until 6K, where I start to taper it off.
At this point, seeing is believing. Post up your config and datalogs.
 

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No offence, unless you have internal engine mods, you don't need to mess with the timing. To answer your question, the first two columns of any table are the decel columns. The ONLY time you'll use that part of the map is on decel.

Also, you should check the WOT enrichment tab and turn on the lambda, this will throw your final A/F off unless you set them to 14.7. Further, if you have no cat the cat enrichment is doing fk all except throwing your a/f on the final map off (whether its a MAF or MAP tune).

It took me a while to sort it out, but your knock is probably from taking out too much fuel and fking around with the timing. My bad if you have engine mods or know more than me.
 

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No offence, unless you have internal engine mods, you don't need to mess with the timing. To answer your question, the first two columns of any table are the decel columns. The ONLY time you'll use that part of the map is on decel.

Also, you should check the WOT enrichment tab and turn on the lambda, this will throw your final A/F off unless you set them to 14.7. Further, if you have no cat the cat enrichment is doing fk all except throwing your a/f on the final map off (whether its a MAF or MAP tune).

It took me a while to sort it out, but your knock is probably from taking out too much fuel and fking around with the timing. My bad if you have engine mods or know more than me.
And it's very unlikely that you're driving around with 0* cam angle... Most of the stock tunes have some VVT advancement to help with fuel economy and emissions.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
No offence, unless you have internal engine mods, you don't need to mess with the timing. To answer your question, the first two columns of any table are the decel columns. The ONLY time you'll use that part of the map is on decel.

Also, you should check the WOT enrichment tab and turn on the lambda, this will throw your final A/F off unless you set them to 14.7. Further, if you have no cat the cat enrichment is doing fk all except throwing your a/f on the final map off (whether its a MAF or MAP tune).

It took me a while to sort it out, but your knock is probably from taking out too much fuel and fking around with the timing. My bad if you have engine mods or know more than me.
I have not touched fuel other than WOT which has nothing to due with the area where I am getting knock. I have also not increased timing where I am getting knock, I was getting knock with the factory timing. I have only changed VTEC to 4500 rpm and made some VTC/timing changes to accommodate that.

However, you are correct with saying the first two cells are for decel, but the computer does not take the value from 1 particular cell, it takes an average of the surrounding cells ( I believe 4). When I am cruising around town at 2k rpm, the computer is taking an average of those 4 cells, which happen to be so widely spread, I think its causing way too much timing advance for that load/rpm, however this is how Honda made it so clearly it's fine. I am just worried because I get 80+ knocks until the engine is warmed up.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
And it's very unlikely that you're driving around with 0* cam angle... Most of the stock tunes have some VVT advancement to help with fuel economy and emissions.
You're correct. On my tune and on Honda's stock tune, the only time youre ever at 0 degrees VTC is off throttle.
 

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I have not touched fuel other than WOT which has nothing to due with the area where I am getting knock. I have also not increased timing where I am getting knock, I was getting knock with the factory timing. I have only changed VTEC to 4500 rpm and made some VTC/timing changes to accommodate that.

However, you are correct with saying the first two cells are for decel, but the computer does not take the value from 1 particular cell, it takes an average of the surrounding cells ( I believe 4). When I am cruising around town at 2k rpm, the computer is taking an average of those 4 cells, which happen to be so widely spread, I think its causing way too much timing advance for that load/rpm, however this is how Honda made it so clearly it's fine. I am just worried because I get 80+ knocks until the engine is warmed up.
Take a log and post it so we can help you out. Might be false knock, from the sensor picking up ambient noise, might be worth wild checking to make sure everything is tight, including the knock sensor.
 

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Take a log and post it so we can help you out. Might be false knock, from the sensor picking up ambient noise, might be worth wild checking to make sure everything is tight, including the knock sensor.
If the knock is on decel it's not a problem. At idle, I would suspect your knock sensor might be tripping if you dont hear a audible ping. I never had that happen to me though. Possibly some gas that wasn't 91 octane?
 

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I meant to say I've only touched the high ignition tables, I have no played with the low cam ignition tables other than retarding it in knock spots. My low and high VTC angle is 35 degrees @ VTEC, and increases to 45 degrees gradually until 6K, where I start to taper it off.
Everywhere I read you want 45 degree cam angle as soon as (or just before) it crosses over to high cam. Whenever I lowered vtec and didnt open the cams up at 45 it lost power. You taper towards 35 degrees towards redline.
 
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