Hybrid racing chain tensioner help
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i have heard good things about both. (k20z3 si) has the hybrid racing with skunk2 cams i think. im planing on getting the hybrid racing one when install my skunk2's. the skunk2 tct has been on backorder for about 10months i think.
bump for more info
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668 Posts
Chain Tensioners
Despite being a fairly robust motor, K-Series engines have been found to have weak timing chain tensioners that fall victim to excessive wear when aftermarket cams are installed in the motor (and in some instances with stock cams). The fast ramp rate of aftermarket cams is the main cause of this. Unfortunately, without tearing the motor down after every use, it's almost impossible to detect a worn tensioner before it's too late. While installing a stiffer spring in an OEM tensioner, like other companies do, will slow down the wear of an OEM style tensioner, it will not eliminate it. The use of a stiffer spring will also cause the timing chain to stretch faster. For this reason, we designed our chain tensioner from scratch, ensuring it could take the abuse aftermarket cams cause without causing faster than normal stretching of the chain.
The Hybrid Racing Chain Tensioner is designed to be both stronger and more durable than the OEM Honda chain tensioner found on K Series motors. It is perfect for anyone who wants some added protection for their valuable motor.
The tensioner functions exactly like the OEM unit it replaces while improving upon the flaws of Honda's design. The dual-ratchet design features hardened tool steel teeth that mesh with a heat treated chromoly piston. The teeth are crafted from the same material used for most the ratchets in high-end impact wrenches. The piston is designed to fit into the K series engine's timing chain guide tighter than the OEM unit does; this helps to avoid misalignment of the ratcheting mechanism and the premature wear that often occurs when aftermarket cams are used in conjunction with the OEM K-Series chain tensioner. In addition, the internal oil passageways have been optimized to respond to oil pressure increase faster than the OEM unit; this becomes critical in motors that rev quickly and to high rpms.
Each Hybrid Racing K-Series Chain Tensioner is manufactured from scratch. It is not a rebuilt and rebranded OEM tensioner like those sold by other companies. The Hybrid Racing chain tensioner comes with reliability that has been proven through more than a year of the most abusive testing.
The stock tensioner can allow the teeth to skip.
Timing chain tensioners are simple but important. Take Honda's K-series, for example. As the engine rotates clockwise, the crankshaft keeps the intake side of the chain tight
simply because of the direction the chain's being pulled, but it's the tensioner's job to do so for the exhaust side. Without it, the cams would start spinning but ultimately just sit there doing nothing as the chain slips and bounces around. Spin far enough out of sync and watch expensive pieces like valves and pistons start to touch one another. Ouch.
How They Work : K-series tensioners aren't terribly complex and, simply put, do little more than push a small piston back and forth against the engine's timing chain guide, keeping the chain tight. They do so hydraulically-not unlike older H22A tensioners-which means K-series tensioners operate by way of oil pressure, but they also incorporate a small, internal spring for mechanical purposes. At low engine speeds, when oil pressure is low, the tensioner's internal spring mechanically moves its piston toward the timing chain guide, reducing chain slack on the chain's exhaust side. As engine speed and oil pressure rise, the spring relaxes and oil pressurizes the tensioner's chamber, hydraulically pushing its piston toward the chain's guide. A check valve ensures the oil doesn't escape prematurely and a release valve lets it out when the tensioner's done, well, tensioning things. Additionally, a ratcheting mechanism and teeth built into the piston ensure that it doesn't retract too far back into its housing and loosen up the chain. Sounds like Honda has it all figured out.
The Problem Unfortunately, Honda's internal tensioner spring doesn't always work as you'd expect, and excess tensioner piston travel (more than 0.25-inch) and timing chain slack when oil pressure is low is common-especially while cranking and at low engine speeds when the spring is doing all the work. The results can cause the piston teeth to slam against the tensioner's ratchet, ultimately grinding their tips off, rendering them ineffective. You see, by design, K-series exhaust valves close rapidly. Each time they slam shut, the chain builds slack. And each time they slam shut, the tensioner's piston bashes against its ratcheting mechanism. Aftermarket cams with aggressive profiles and stiffer valve springs only pronounce this. It should be noted that although dealership technicians have reported worn tensioner pistons on otherwise stock engines, it's more likely once camshafts and springs have been swapped. Steeper exhaust closing ramps and stiffer valve springs that close the valves even quicker are to blame. Of course, none of this is good since the ratchet and piston teeth are the only things that prevent the piston from being pushed in too far. All of this can lead to a loose chain, a failed safety mechanism, and engine damage, even on unmodified engines. Worst of all, you'll never know any of this is happening until it's too late since you can't readily monitor the tensioner and, even if you could, all of this happens way to quickly.
The Solution The simplest and least expensive fix is to add a click to the tensioner by manually moving its piston one tooth closer toward the chain. This method reduces how far the piston can retract back into the tensioner housing, but it doesn't solve the overall problem or make the ratchet and piston teeth any stronger. Adding a click is easy but it isn't a permanent solution.
Stiffer tensioner springs have also been experimented with by various companies, but this doesn't address the weak ratchet and piston teeth issue. What it does do is resist
excessive piston movement and bashing at start-up and during low oil pressure situations, though, which is, after all, the reason the ratchet and piston teeth get damaged to begin with.
TODA, Hybrid Racing, and Skunk2 offer more comprehensive solutions. These companies' tensioners are based off of Honda's design but are machined from scratch. All use stiffer internal springs that prevent the exhaust camshaft from slamming shut at low engine speeds by eliminating chain slack, even under low oil pressure conditions where the factory spring is typically compromised. They also address the tensioner's piston and safety mechanism. Hybrid Racing's Timing Chain Tensioner's piston
features teeth on both sides for even load distribution, while TODA and Skunk2's Pro Series Timing Chain Tensioner features taller teeth that, even when filed down or damaged, are deep enough to engage its ratchet. Skunk2's tensioner's piston is also 1.5mm larger than the OEM one and features a larger ratcheting mechanism. Both tensioners also feature provisions to fit tightly against the timing chain guide to ensure against rotational movement, which can exert uneven load against the ratcheting teeth. Even the factory-designed oil passages and check valves are retained, which means both tensioners remain lubricated and pressurized just as Honda intended.
Aftermarket tensioners and heavy duty timing chains are just as important with cams as having the engine properly tuned. Without them engine failure isn't just a possibility...it's just a matter of time. The oil system is also to be looked at especially if you have good springs and retainers meaning your going to be able to run your car at 9000 rpm all year long.
After an install there should be absolutely no noise from the tensioner or the timing chain.
Despite being a fairly robust motor, K-Series engines have been found to have weak timing chain tensioners that fall victim to excessive wear when aftermarket cams are installed in the motor (and in some instances with stock cams). The fast ramp rate of aftermarket cams is the main cause of this. Unfortunately, without tearing the motor down after every use, it's almost impossible to detect a worn tensioner before it's too late. While installing a stiffer spring in an OEM tensioner, like other companies do, will slow down the wear of an OEM style tensioner, it will not eliminate it. The use of a stiffer spring will also cause the timing chain to stretch faster. For this reason, we designed our chain tensioner from scratch, ensuring it could take the abuse aftermarket cams cause without causing faster than normal stretching of the chain.
The Hybrid Racing Chain Tensioner is designed to be both stronger and more durable than the OEM Honda chain tensioner found on K Series motors. It is perfect for anyone who wants some added protection for their valuable motor.
The tensioner functions exactly like the OEM unit it replaces while improving upon the flaws of Honda's design. The dual-ratchet design features hardened tool steel teeth that mesh with a heat treated chromoly piston. The teeth are crafted from the same material used for most the ratchets in high-end impact wrenches. The piston is designed to fit into the K series engine's timing chain guide tighter than the OEM unit does; this helps to avoid misalignment of the ratcheting mechanism and the premature wear that often occurs when aftermarket cams are used in conjunction with the OEM K-Series chain tensioner. In addition, the internal oil passageways have been optimized to respond to oil pressure increase faster than the OEM unit; this becomes critical in motors that rev quickly and to high rpms.
Each Hybrid Racing K-Series Chain Tensioner is manufactured from scratch. It is not a rebuilt and rebranded OEM tensioner like those sold by other companies. The Hybrid Racing chain tensioner comes with reliability that has been proven through more than a year of the most abusive testing.
The stock tensioner can allow the teeth to skip.
Timing chain tensioners are simple but important. Take Honda's K-series, for example. As the engine rotates clockwise, the crankshaft keeps the intake side of the chain tight
simply because of the direction the chain's being pulled, but it's the tensioner's job to do so for the exhaust side. Without it, the cams would start spinning but ultimately just sit there doing nothing as the chain slips and bounces around. Spin far enough out of sync and watch expensive pieces like valves and pistons start to touch one another. Ouch.
How They Work : K-series tensioners aren't terribly complex and, simply put, do little more than push a small piston back and forth against the engine's timing chain guide, keeping the chain tight. They do so hydraulically-not unlike older H22A tensioners-which means K-series tensioners operate by way of oil pressure, but they also incorporate a small, internal spring for mechanical purposes. At low engine speeds, when oil pressure is low, the tensioner's internal spring mechanically moves its piston toward the timing chain guide, reducing chain slack on the chain's exhaust side. As engine speed and oil pressure rise, the spring relaxes and oil pressurizes the tensioner's chamber, hydraulically pushing its piston toward the chain's guide. A check valve ensures the oil doesn't escape prematurely and a release valve lets it out when the tensioner's done, well, tensioning things. Additionally, a ratcheting mechanism and teeth built into the piston ensure that it doesn't retract too far back into its housing and loosen up the chain. Sounds like Honda has it all figured out.
The Problem Unfortunately, Honda's internal tensioner spring doesn't always work as you'd expect, and excess tensioner piston travel (more than 0.25-inch) and timing chain slack when oil pressure is low is common-especially while cranking and at low engine speeds when the spring is doing all the work. The results can cause the piston teeth to slam against the tensioner's ratchet, ultimately grinding their tips off, rendering them ineffective. You see, by design, K-series exhaust valves close rapidly. Each time they slam shut, the chain builds slack. And each time they slam shut, the tensioner's piston bashes against its ratcheting mechanism. Aftermarket cams with aggressive profiles and stiffer valve springs only pronounce this. It should be noted that although dealership technicians have reported worn tensioner pistons on otherwise stock engines, it's more likely once camshafts and springs have been swapped. Steeper exhaust closing ramps and stiffer valve springs that close the valves even quicker are to blame. Of course, none of this is good since the ratchet and piston teeth are the only things that prevent the piston from being pushed in too far. All of this can lead to a loose chain, a failed safety mechanism, and engine damage, even on unmodified engines. Worst of all, you'll never know any of this is happening until it's too late since you can't readily monitor the tensioner and, even if you could, all of this happens way to quickly.
The Solution The simplest and least expensive fix is to add a click to the tensioner by manually moving its piston one tooth closer toward the chain. This method reduces how far the piston can retract back into the tensioner housing, but it doesn't solve the overall problem or make the ratchet and piston teeth any stronger. Adding a click is easy but it isn't a permanent solution.
Stiffer tensioner springs have also been experimented with by various companies, but this doesn't address the weak ratchet and piston teeth issue. What it does do is resist
excessive piston movement and bashing at start-up and during low oil pressure situations, though, which is, after all, the reason the ratchet and piston teeth get damaged to begin with.
TODA, Hybrid Racing, and Skunk2 offer more comprehensive solutions. These companies' tensioners are based off of Honda's design but are machined from scratch. All use stiffer internal springs that prevent the exhaust camshaft from slamming shut at low engine speeds by eliminating chain slack, even under low oil pressure conditions where the factory spring is typically compromised. They also address the tensioner's piston and safety mechanism. Hybrid Racing's Timing Chain Tensioner's piston
features teeth on both sides for even load distribution, while TODA and Skunk2's Pro Series Timing Chain Tensioner features taller teeth that, even when filed down or damaged, are deep enough to engage its ratchet. Skunk2's tensioner's piston is also 1.5mm larger than the OEM one and features a larger ratcheting mechanism. Both tensioners also feature provisions to fit tightly against the timing chain guide to ensure against rotational movement, which can exert uneven load against the ratcheting teeth. Even the factory-designed oil passages and check valves are retained, which means both tensioners remain lubricated and pressurized just as Honda intended.
Aftermarket tensioners and heavy duty timing chains are just as important with cams as having the engine properly tuned. Without them engine failure isn't just a possibility...it's just a matter of time. The oil system is also to be looked at especially if you have good springs and retainers meaning your going to be able to run your car at 9000 rpm all year long.
After an install there should be absolutely no noise from the tensioner or the timing chain.
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Does anyone have any previous experience to what could be wrong, why my motor has gone through 4 tensioners in last 3 months, oem 2, aftermarket 2... i had my k20z3 head built. Ported and polished, valve job, oversized valve stem .5 mm, Skunk2 stage 1 cams+pro valve springs and retainers.... flash pro tuned?????
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I'm still trying to grasp how some people say the chain tensioners are notorious for failure but MANY people are running 300+hp NA and supercharged engine's, 400+ turbo engine's with no issues.
EDIT: btw to the OP. are you applying the correct torque specs to the nuts/bolts and using lock-tite? I dont know the specifics instructions on the install for the tensioner but I would assume lock-tite is needed and there is a break-in period before hitting higher rpms.
EDIT: btw to the OP. are you applying the correct torque specs to the nuts/bolts and using lock-tite? I dont know the specifics instructions on the install for the tensioner but I would assume lock-tite is needed and there is a break-in period before hitting higher rpms.
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312 Posts
what's crazy is this did not start happening until the skunk2 cams where put in
but their only stage1.. before i had tsx cams and had no issues. Maybe millennium motorsports did something wrong when building my head.
1. could be the cams combined with the cam gears (known issue with skunk2)
2. the guides could be damaged
hhhhhhhhhelp
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Import Tuner Web Site has a Hybrid or S2 Racing Chain Tensioner Install on a K20Z3 engine I think. Check out how they install it.
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312 Posts
i think so too its the skunk2, im going to switch back to tsx just for a little bit too see if its the cams. i hate how i have spent so much money on specific companies and all their R&D are all shitttttttttttttttttt. i feel like if i invest on expensive products that the product should be tested by the companies not the consumer. all these excuses they have is a bunch of BS, mechanics as well i feel like its better if i do it myself then i have no issues the one time i let someone else work on my car everything goes to ****. WTF:deadhorse:
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312 Posts
just read the email from hybrid, Apparently the chain tensioner they replaced which i sent back has no issues. hybrid is sudgesting to have my motor further diagnosed. The problem my mechanic said was the HB chain tensioner failed due to side to side motion, HYbrid tech said "they put it on a testing rig and the teeth and the motion is ok", WTF...
i am going to have my chain cover removed and checked to see if the guides are ok, hopefully this will tell me what the problem is. The noise is coming from the side where the cam gears are not where the chain is after the the head job was completed.
i am going to have my chain cover removed and checked to see if the guides are ok, hopefully this will tell me what the problem is. The noise is coming from the side where the cam gears are not where the chain is after the the head job was completed.
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2,315 Posts
45k on my oem tct, 25k w/s2 s2 cams :shrug:
The only concern is it could fail on start up with the absence of oil pressure. Even if there is chain slap at idle, it'll go away once you begin to increase the rpms as their will be an increase in oil pressure.
Don't spend $400 on a hybrid tct? Everyone is afraid of the oem tct, but I can't recall of the top of my head any number of members who've had it fail with the result of a ruined motor?
The only concern is it could fail on start up with the absence of oil pressure. Even if there is chain slap at idle, it'll go away once you begin to increase the rpms as their will be an increase in oil pressure.
Don't spend $400 on a hybrid tct? Everyone is afraid of the oem tct, but I can't recall of the top of my head any number of members who've had it fail with the result of a ruined motor?
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^you got me thinking now. to get the hybrid racing tensioner or not?
getting ready to install my st2 soon hopfully, and if you think i can do with out-i can get them installed faster.
getting ready to install my st2 soon hopfully, and if you think i can do with out-i can get them installed faster.
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I found my problem the reason why chain tensioners are failing.... so, I'm going to swap back to my 06 tsx cams just to prove a point what's causing the tensioners to fail junk2's stage 1 cams. heres the link : Got timing chain slap? Skunk2 does. - K20A.org .:. The K Series Source . Honda / Acura K20a k24a Engine Forum
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Do you have a skunk exhaust cam gear that you've retarded the timing? Their's a lot of read there, but basically the retarded exhaust gear is what he's attributing the chain slap to thus leading to tensioner failure. Although everything is relative to one another, that seems to be his general conclusion. It isn't just one part that's contributing to chain slap.
The video from the link.
Post #27...
Analyzing #1, we can determine that at this point, the valve springs are pushing up on the lobes of both cams. That is, resisting the clockwise rotation of the intake cam and pushing the exhaust cam clockwise. Because there is a fixed chain guide on the intake cam side of the chain, there is no net movement of the intake cam. However, on the exhaust side, there is the moving chain guide that is supported by the tensioner. The valve springs exert enough force on the cam to overpower the spring in the tensioner. The tensioner compresses, the exhaust cam rotates forward, but because the intake cam is also meeting valve spring resistance, it does not take up the slack. Thus you have the loose chain between the cam gears. It's a combination of the valve spring rates, cam ramp rates, and the relative timing of the cams that causes all this to happen.
Keep in mind, this is on the primary lobes at zero deg advance. I immediately realized that this lends further creedence to my theory that the tensioners were dying because of the loading/unloading of the timing chain. You could hear the tensioner unloading each time the chain popped. My previous theory on how to deal with this was to add more damping to the system (heavier exhaust cam gear). After making the video, I thought maybe I could change the phase of the cams such that the intake cam opens later, and thus change the point at which it begins to engage the valvespring. Only one problem, the video was taken at zero advance. I looked on my calibration and noticed that in the part throttle area I had 20deg of intake advance. The part throttle cells are where I was experiencing the tensioner noise. I changed it all to zero. I went for a drive, and no noise. None at all. I left the last 3 columns with the normal advance. At full throttle, I never experienced any noise from the tensioner to begin with.
Coincidentally, before I retarded the exhaust cam gear, I never had any problems at part throttle. The exhaust cam retard that Skunk2 recommends is -20 crank degrees. Funny that after I retarded my exhaust 20degrees, I had to retard my intake 20 degrees to get rid of tensioner noises. I'm confident that now, I will be able to regain the reliability I had with the skunk2 cams + stock exhaust cam gear while having the skunk2 exhaust gear retarded -20 crank degrees. Even with the stock cam gear, I had a tensioner fail at about 5000miles, but it was during startup under low oil pressure. My dual spring modded tensioner should keep that from ever happening again.
So the solution I have found is two fold.
1) less cam advance in the part throttle maps for the primary lobes
2) a dual spring modded failsafe tensioner
And more...
I think that more or less we are looking at it the same way. There is a particular phase between the intake & exhaust cam that will minimize tensioner wear at lower RPM when the vibrations are more pronounced. I'm sure if I re-tested and advanced the exhaust gear, the chain slap would be less. I could also retard the intake further (via bored keyway). There's all sorts of band-aid solutions I can think of, but the fact that the problem exists at 20deg advance but is imperceptible at 0deg advance lets me know that there is a harmonic interaction between the intake & exhaust cam that governs how bad your tensioner problems will be with these cams. It's a very simple way to look at it. I've always thought that this was the case, but now I have some empirical evidence to support my original hypothesis. And that evidence led me to a temporary fix to help myself and others that are running the same cams and having the same problems. Yeah, it's not ideal to have a low cam map that looks like this:
http://www.razid.com/images/camanglemap.jpg
But it helped the situation with the noise from the tensioner. This may or may not work for everyone else's setup. Every setup is different, but at least now there is more info out on what needs to be done to deal with this problem.
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<------- 47K miles with OEM TCT paired IPS-K2 cams.
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what valvesprings are you using? S2 ????
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I have had the pro valve dual springs for 1 year sitting in in my garage have skunk2 made several version or only the cams were redesign??
I'm just thinking, I'm still waiting for the car to get the chain swapped and guides done so we will see...
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