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Old 09-24-2012, 12:32 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Lightbulb Ideas for Manual Transmission Cooler

During track use, has anyone monitored transmission temperatures? I'm looking to see if there's a need for a cooler for our Z3 transmissions.

Assuming temperatures actually can (and do) get well into the 200*F range during track use, its probably a good idea to come up with something to keep temps in more of a normal-operating range (160-190ish *F - or so I read)

Has anyone thought of tapping the transmission casing, and using something like a Bosch Auxiliary DC voltage water pump, like the ones used with supercharger aftercoolers, and just a typical plate/fin or pipe/fin radiator?

Does anyone think the Bosch pumps would hold up to the post-radiator fluid temperatures? (assuming a fluid routing of: Transaxle > radiator > pump > transaxle)

Recently found quite a few other pumps than the typical Bosch 0 392 022 002 pump that Jose uses in his A/C kits. Anyone think any of the following would work with relatively hot MTF? :

Commonly known '002' pump: http://www.siliconeintakes.com/image...0392022002.pdf

'010' pump: Charge cooler bosch pump possible replacement - Benzworld.org - Mercedes-Benz Discussion Forum

Johnson Pump CM30, CM60, C090: SPX Johnson Pump for Boatbuilders, Pleasure, Commercial & Fishing boats

Johnson Pump CM90: SPX Johnson Pump for Boatbuilders, Pleasure, Commercial & Fishing boats

WAAYY overpriced, but nonetheless - APR pump: Audi & Volkswagen Parts & Repair Specialist - PURE Motorsport

Mezerie WP116: Meziere Enterprises

Mezerie WP136 & 137: Meziere Enterprises

Davies Pumps: Electric Water Pumps


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Old 09-24-2012, 11:23 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I don't think there would be an issue with transmission temps unless you add more power than bolt-ons can can.

supercharged, turbocharged... i could see the need for one.

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Old 09-24-2012, 11:33 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I'm not sure that the temp of the fluid will be the major issue, the pumps used for "water" on aftercoolers and similar setups see temps at the 200*+ area. But getting a pump that will handle the viscosity of MTF and reliably moving it for long times would be important. Maybe an external Oil pump, though all that I've ever seen as an engineer are beastly monsters that are way bigger than you would need for this.

You may be able to get away with not adding holes to the transmission, if you were to put a tee on both the fill and the drain you could make it feed through the existing ports (out the drain and back in the fill) and still have the ability to change the MTF without removing the cooler lines. I'm sure McMaster-Carr would have some fitting rated for such an endeavor.
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Old 09-24-2012, 11:44 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WyoSi View Post
You may be able to get away with not adding holes to the transmission, if you were to put a tee on both the fill and the drain you could make it feed through the existing ports (out the drain and back in the fill) and still have the ability to change the MTF without removing the cooler lines. I'm sure McMaster-Carr would have some fitting rated for such an endeavor.
Yea, I thought about that afterwards. The existing fill/drain holes would make it that much easier to do.

I think the only way were gonna find out whether it needs extra cooling is to put a temp. sensor to it and datalog. Maybe thats something I can get around to when I get back to the states.
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Old 09-24-2012, 12:05 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I think you will run into some issues actually pumping oil through a water pump, but who knows There are some people on here that actually track their car (not 1/4mile) and they wrecked their trans due to high heat.
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Old 09-24-2012, 12:10 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I know about Riaz's issue - Though he didn't mention enough detail (or probably just doesn't have enough details yet, until he inspects the trans) to confirm/deny the issue was due to heat alone.

And yea, this idea would probably only benefit people who race circuits.
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Old 09-24-2012, 12:13 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Definitely use the fill/drain holes. No point in anything else since the fluid is never supposed to be higher than the fill hole anyways. And our tranny casing's are already known for not being the strongest thing in the world. Adding microfractures to the casing while tapping it would do more harm than good.

This would have to work just like a standard engine oil cooler. It'd need a thermostat to control the temp and keep it optimal. Just as the engine's parts operate optimally at a specific oil temp, the tranny needs to be up to temp before beating on it too.

For people that are turbo'd, you can DEFINITELY tell when the tranny overheats. I haven't experienced it yet with my SC, but I'm sure it happens to the people @ >300hp. This would definitely be a worthwhile mod for anyone driving their car hard in competition with any significant increase in horsepower.

As I've attested in the past, different fluids have made a difference when dealing with different tranny temps at the track. So keeping temps down would help massively with consistency of hard shifting while allowing you to use a lower viscosity oil (OEM FTW) for smoothness.

I like it, now someone come up with a functional way to do it.
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Old 09-24-2012, 12:21 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I like the idea of using the fill and drain holes but that will make it difficult to fill to the correct level unless you have a remote fill that is at the same level as the fill hole. Good challenge though, sub'ed.
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Old 09-24-2012, 12:42 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by missaghi View Post
I like the idea of using the fill and drain holes but that will make it difficult to fill to the correct level unless you have a remote fill that is at the same level as the fill hole. Good challenge though, sub'ed.
With what I'm envisioning in my noggin, there wouldn't be a need for a remote fill.

To fill, you'd do it the same way as you would without it, the only exception being removing the hose routed to the fill port.

And it'd make draining mess free too (remove the hose to the fill port / then turn the pump on)

I'll have to do some research on how to turn the pump on at a given temperature, and off at a given temperature.

Jay / Vit, would you guys happen to know if we could map an additional sensor (temp sensor, in this case) to the ECU, and use flashpro to configure a sending of an on/off signal, like what is done with the radiator fans currently?

Edit - Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way, by attempting to control it electronically? Anyone think controling it mechanically (eg. via mechanical thermostat) is a better way of doing it?

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Old 09-24-2012, 12:58 PM   #10 (permalink)
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No you can't do it with FP. It'd be mechanical. Like I said, look at how people are doing external oil coolers on the K. They're using a mechanical external tstat to make it work.
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Old 09-24-2012, 01:17 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mucter View Post
No you can't do it with FP. It'd be mechanical. Like I said, look at how people are doing external oil coolers on the K. They're using a mechanical external tstat to make it work.
That would really make *fully* draining , and properly refilling the transaxle a real pita. Edit - And would probably burn out the DC motor of the pump quicker, don't you think? (Being that it'd be pushing against nothing but restriction until the t-stat opens)

But since we don't have that ability within flashpro, why not use a temperature *switch* wired into a relay to control the pump instead?

For example: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Premium-In-l...c9e5c5&vxp=mtr

(Would a turn on temp of 180*F, and turn off temp of 165*F be too low though? I would assume a turn on temp of 200-210ish, and turn off temp of 180*F would be more ideal, no? Would keep the trans fluid from being too cool)

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Old 09-24-2012, 02:46 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Great discussion, a few thoughts. I considered doing this at one point but sold the blower and ergo, abandoned the project. Here is the pump I would use...

Pumps - Mocal Differential Cooler Pump



...inline filter would be a "must" for obvious reasons. I doubt any pump designed for water would hold up to MTF. If not the heat, then the petroleum might destroy the seals.

Also, I would tap the case and install a barb for a remote breather. This is SOP for almost any oil circulation system in racing applications. Honda puts a miniature breather already in the case roof but it's probably not enough.

Good luck and I hope someone does this.
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Old 09-24-2012, 03:29 PM   #13 (permalink)
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what about using a liquid-liquid system and having the MTF be cooled across the engine coolant? I realize it would increase the duty on the cooling system but it would bring the MTF temp down to the set point of the cooling system and thus negate the necessity of a t-stat and running the pump against restriction.

I have little idea how much duty is left in the stock cooling system, but an upgraded radiator and fans would be easier than adding a new air-liquid cooler for the MTF.

Just a thought.


And adding a tee in the drain hole would let you use a pet**** (edit:really that's a real word!) to drain the MTF. I know Lotus guys add them to their engine oil plugs because it negates the necessity of dropping their under trays to pull the drain plug. So it would handle the pressure and temp of the MTF system.
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Old 09-24-2012, 03:33 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erik loza View Post
Great discussion, a few thoughts. I considered doing this at one point but sold the blower and ergo, abandoned the project. Here is the pump I would use...

Pumps - Mocal Differential Cooler Pump

image


...inline filter would be a "must" for obvious reasons. I doubt any pump designed for water would hold up to MTF. If not the heat, then the petroleum might destroy the seals.

Also, I would tap the case and install a barb for a remote breather. This is SOP for almost any oil circulation system in racing applications. Honda puts a miniature breather already in the case roof but it's probably not enough.

Good luck and I hope someone does this.
Exactly the kind of pump I was looking for. Thanks Erik
Most other pumps with viton seals (oil safe) are roughly twice that amount.

Could you shed a little light on why you believe the stock breather would not be sufficient?
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Old 09-24-2012, 03:34 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WyoSi View Post
what about using a liquid-liquid system and having the MTF be cooled across the engine coolant? I realize it would increase the duty on the cooling system but it would bring the MTF temp down to the set point of the cooling system and thus negate the necessity of a t-stat and running the pump against restriction.

I have little idea how much duty is left in the stock cooling system, but an upgraded radiator and fans would be easier than adding a new air-liquid cooler for the MTF.

Just a thought.


And adding a tee in the drain hole would let you use a pet**** (edit:really that's a real word!) to drain the MTF. I know Lotus guys add them to their engine oil plugs because it negates the necessity of dropping their under trays to pull the drain plug. So it would handle the pressure and temp of the MTF system.
Would definitely be less work - But without trying it, I have doubts. Though it could work just fine for all I know. I'll look into that as well.
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Old 09-24-2012, 03:58 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I personally wouldn't try a engine coolant-to-oil heat exchanger for the simple reason that then, you would have two systems tied together and it doesn't really need to be, in this case. I just think it would put constraints on the plumbing options and jack the price way up. I would not do a thermostat or anything, just plumb in the pump, filter, and oil cooler and leave it at that. I guess if you were truly concerned, you could use one of K-Pro's nitrous outputs to "not" turn the pump on until a certain point but then, you have to worry about a temp input signal and that seems complicated.

Regarding the breather, the fact that there would now be a pump in the equation means you could end up with a positive pressure situation in the tranny case and (to my mind) the possibility of oil getting forced past the axle seals. A better breather would totally eliminate that possibility. I am not saying it would for sure happen, just that the thought crosses my mind, because pretty much every gearbox for racing (tranny, differential, etc) all use breather tanks for exactly this reason.

Just my thoughts and I hope someone does this.
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Old 09-24-2012, 07:24 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Switched to Motul 300 MT fluid when I started doing track days, but had not considered a MTF cooler, just the engine oil cooler.

Fsrider is spinning his SC at 20,000 rpm and came up with a cooler for the SC oil, so maybe he's got an idea on moving the MTF.
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Old 09-24-2012, 08:44 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Jay, were you referring to something like this? -> http://static.summitracing.com/globa...3011_15719.pdf

This should eliminate any pump restriction. (Or at least one would hope.)
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Old 09-24-2012, 10:04 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Jay, were you referring to something like this? -> http://static.summitracing.com/globa...3011_15719.pdf

This should eliminate any pump restriction. (Or at least one would hope.)
I honestly haven't looked into it too much, but yeah that seems right. I know for a fact that the temp of the tranny fluid is important so you wouldn't want to overcool it.
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Old 09-24-2012, 10:18 PM   #20 (permalink)
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In which case it probably won't matter at what temp the pump is turned on, or what temp a thermostat is opened (within reason. Obviously you wouldn't want the pump on and circulating oil through a radiator when its freezing out, but I hope you guys catch my drift.)

Sounds to me the key would be finding a radiator that cools just enough to keep temps in the 180-210, or even 220*F range (at the upper limit).


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