Iraq Resolution?

[Special Ringpop]

I was watching C-Span (don't judge me), and I was watching a representative whose name escapes me at the moment (but he was republican), who said that that Al-Quada and the Taliban know that they can get us to pull out of Afghanastan if we can get Congress to lose their way.

Now, personally, look on the side of the Taliban. What do they see in our country? They see massive division. The majority of people do not support the war, the majority of people haven't supported the president for a very long time (which leads me to wonder if the only reason he was reelected was for his moral crusades and because it was wartime, and we historically do not change presidnets during war time), but they also see a Congress divided. We've got democrats who want to protect the troops, but want to limit outragoeus spending for Iraq (think of how much this money could have been used to better America had we not been in war, even though it wouldn't), and fighting against more troop deployment.

My point is, the "enemies" probably think they're winning. They see a divided American people whose collective voices aren't being heard, they see a divided Congress fighting day after day trying to reach a point where both except, and they probably see, as this Representative was saying, another Vietnam.

What are peoples thoughts on this? Please spare the blatant bashings of either political parties (unless it is constructive) and the blatant bashing of the President (you can say it the same way without saying "he sucks", even if that is true)

[Seemund]

Well..
It's time to come back home :)
IMO its worthless to stay there.. you're just WASTING money :)

[aki]

Originally Posted by Special Ringpop

Now, personally, look on the side of the Taliban. What do they see in our country? They see massive division.

I don't think they see the bipartisan division as much as we see ourselves. Their view, mind you, is heavily distorted by the extremely biased media in Arab states.

What they do see, and have been seeing is this:

"We just need to kill a couple thousand Americans for them to pull out. We just need to incur enough casualties to win. America loves their high-tech weapons but once their own soldiers start dying they will run away."

They know American war psychology. They know we're scarred by Vietnam, Rwanda, Ethopia. If you've seen the movie Blackhawk Down (yeah it's a Hollywood movie but based on a true story), you'd see how that tactic worked in Ethopia. Aidid's plan was to kill *one*, just *one* US soldier. That's why he set up road blocks throughout the city. He knew that once US soldiers started dying that the US would quickly pull out, scoring a victory for himself.

The enemies think they're winning because they are. As they predicted, the US is freaking out about the casualties in Iraq. As they predicted, the US hates casualties and is planning to pull out as soon as possible. They know the US isn't willing to fight a protracted war with tens of thousands of casualties.

And therein lies the big difference: Taliban, Shiites, Hezbollah, Hamas, or whatever other opponent is willing to take hundreds of thousands of casualties if need be. Why? Because they're so used to dying, getting bombed that tens of thousands of casualties is nothing to them. But life in the US is so secure, so stable, that death is all the more traumatizing. Death in Ethopia is business as usual. It's not really that US is cowardly, it's just that people in the US aren't willing to die for strangers thousands of miles overseas. In other words, we entered a war we weren't willing to fight in.

As for a resolution, it will not be a quick one if US stays. Iraq prime minister Al-Maliki is starting to side with Shiite extremist Sadr, because he's expecting US to pull out. And if US does, then the Iraq government will have nobody to turn to. Hence he's buddying up with Shiite extremists right now, so post-US-withdrawal the new government would still have popular support.

US in Iraq faces many enemies. Sadr's Mahdi army, Sunnis, Sunni-backed Al Qaeda, Iranian intelligence operatives working with Shiite extremists. It's a giant mess caused by the Bush administration disbanding the old Iraqi army, leaving a vacuum of law enforcement. US will need to somehow garner popular support from the majority Shiite population, which is now difficult since Shiites are enraged over all the Sunni bombings and want revenge.

To "win", US will need to stick it out in Iraq... but also come up with some plan to bring stability in the region, and quell the endless factionalism ravishing the country. They need to somehow make Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds work with each other. In the mean time they also need to fight off roadside bombs made by Iranians and Al Qaeda. Whether or not a "win" is worth it depends on how much we're willing to let our soldiers die. And even winning is dubious given the administration's incompetence and the lack of direction in Iraqi domestic policy.

[Dwn4nythng]

I say the same thing. Stop wasting money over there and rebuild our own.
All that money he spent over there, we could of had free medical and dental just like Canada has. The war is a lost cause. America got their asses beat by one man (so called, we know Bush planned this).

Originally Posted by Seemund

Well..
It's time to come back home :)
IMO its worthless to stay there.. you're just WASTING money :)

[[IVI]]

Originally Posted by Dwn4nythng

All that money he spent over there, we could of had free medical and dental just like Canada has.

Wait a minute. Canada has free medical and dental? That's it. I'm moving!

[Sleepy]

Originally Posted by [IVI]

Wait a minute. Canada has free medical and dental? That's it. I'm moving!

Medical is only free in certain provinces of Canada and as far as I know dental isnt free at all.

I get to pay 54.00 dollars a month for my medical here in British Columbia,(I am unsure what health care costs in the states) I have to pay up front for my dental then I get my cash back with my medical plan at work. If I didn't have the plan at work then I would be paying in full for dental work.

[new06Civic]

We are invaded Iraq for the wrong reasons. We have to fix it. We have to tough it out and rebuild Iraq.

W's policies have fails again and again. Democrat sweeps the elections last year. Since they are our current elected party, their Iraq plans should be honored. I think that it is a great idea to re-deploy our military according to democratic plans. The current W’s plans using our military as a policeman is not working. It is not our military’s role to police Iraq cities. It is becoming a practice target for the insurgents!

[Special Ringpop]

Aki, I have to say I agree with a lot of what you say in this regard.

But I have one question, and I wonder what you think about it it.

I think the American public, despite casualities in war (which go hand in hand), would be much more supportive of the war if they felt progress was being made. Or rather, that things were under control, which they clearly aren't. Would the America people support the war if they felt it had a purpose?

[Civic4u]

Send troop home
Save money for US problems
Send Iraq and Iran early Christmas gift....etc.

[striker_1818]

Do you guys really think there's an alqaeda in Iraq and Iran is helping them?
Take this as an example:
Shiites are in power while sunni's are getting "arm supplies" by iran, right?
But do you guys know iranians HATE sunnis? Do you know why? Iraq-Iran war.
Iranians have always hated sunni's and always will and don't deny it. I still fail to understand why this gov't keeps feeding people that iran is helping arming sunnis. So, in other words, there was an incident in Iran when an Alqaeda group attacked Iran's troops... But wait isn't Iran with Alqaeda? Isn't iran arming Sunni's?
Article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070214/...iran_explosion

Here's a little info you people don't know about...an article you should all read:

Ex-CIA Agent: I was fired for showing Iraq was not developing WMD
By Chitra Ragavan

A federal judge has ruled that a CIA agent identified only as "Doe," allegedly fired after he gathered prewar intelligence showing that Iraq was not developing weapons of mass destruction, can proceed with his lawsuit against the CIA. The judge has ordered both parties to submit discovery requests–evidence they want for their case–to be completed by March 15, according to the CIA agent's lawyer and a spokesman for the Justice Department, which is defending the CIA in court.

U.S. District Judge Gladys Kessler issued her ruling after what Doe's attorney, Roy Krieger, described as an extraordinary, secret status conference by telephone this afternoon that lasted nearly a half an hour. So concerned was the CIA about the agent's identity becoming public that the Justice Department prevailed upon the judge to issue a highly restrictive order regarding press contacts by the agent and Krieger. The order barred them from "requesting, allowing, encouraging, or directing" any members of the media from appearing at Krieger's office or even within a two-block vicinity of the building where he works or of any other location of the status conference, until two hours after the conference was completed.

Krieger and his client were also barred from notifying the media ahead of time about the status conference or its location. The judge sealed her order until 2 p.m. today.

"They are worried about his photograph being taken or his likeness being sketched," Krieger told U.S. News, "because if his appearance became public, we are told we will lose one of our most valued assets because [the asset has] been publicly associated with him."

At the hearing, Krieger said, Justice Department attorney Marcia Tiersky told Kessler the department wanted to file a motion for summary judgment, leading to dismissal of the case, before discovery commenced. In response to Kessler's request for a basis for summary judgment, according to Krieger and the Justice Department, Tiersky said that the department would produce affidavits in support of the move. But the judge, indicating that she viewed this as a delaying tactic, said she would allow the discovery process to begin.

This is the second setback for the government in this case. In January, Kessler decided on technical grounds that the CIA employee's lawsuit could not be dismissed. However, the judge did not rule on the agent's central claim that he was fired because he refused to alter intelligence that contradicted the Bush administration's central rationale for the war in Iraq. In that earlier ruling, Kessler said that the covert agent could plausibly argue that his firing was based on allegedly false information placed in his personnel file. Krieger said that his client had gathered intelligence from several countries in the Middle East, including Iraq.

The intelligence was picked up as the United States began its push for invading Iraq in 2003. As has been widely reported, the Bush administration has since failed to find any weapons of mass destruction. The CIA agent has alleged in his suit that supervisors told him they would notify President Bush that he had found contradictory information but that they failed to follow through on their promise.


And a little video of Bush saying iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 from a white house press conference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdlEcFfYZ2k

Have fun and please flame me or reply to me.

[striker_1818]

bump! no1 wants a healthy debate?

[Special Ringpop]

It doesn't seem so...I figured this would be a popular thread...

[striker_1818]

Originally Posted by Special Ringpop

It doesn't seem so...I figured this would be a popular thread...

and i presented some research that's actually not pro or anti-bush but truth and facts,,,
I wonder where the pro and anti-bush guys in here went

[striker_1818]

Bump! have a decent debate with me people! even if u agree or disagree, throw out more info or tell me my info is wrong and left-sided.

[Skylinegtr06]

No one can say one side is the best solution, if you take alot of troops out Iraq and Afghanistan may turn into radical nations again, maybe worse(with possible help from iran) now if we keep them there it maybe a money pit and a possible vietnam. No one can exactly predict what will hapen in the next decade we can only hope its not going to be WWIII

[CaliGuy]

We can't pull out at this point. We went in for whatever BS reason (thanks George W). We cannot just pull out now and let the Iraquis kill eachther. We started the problem and now we must finish it.

Thanks to all of you who voted this explicative explicative into office!

[sonitex]

We cannot win in Afghanistan or Iraq. This is a religious fanatiscm that has been goin on since BC. The terrorist are there supporting those fanatics that will not accept democracy as we know it. The only winners now are the Kurds. They are thankfull to us for removing Saddam from power. We have not lost one GI in Kurdistan. Eventually, they alone will come out the successful people of this war. They police themselves, they have no terrorist in their midst. They have dug a deep trench around their borders, and control everyone going in. They have built Malls with escalators, housing compounds that rivals the best housing areas in the US. They have built theaters, and universties since Saddam's downfall. In all the regions, they are the least scared of terrorism because they have created a strong government with a prime minister, and their police are not tainted by fanatics. IMHO.

[solo]

bush is a f*cktard.. dont care if u flame me for sayin that either. were fighting an immorally wrong and pointless war for financial gain. bring the soldiers back home and refocus on mending our own wounds, that sh*thead bush has caused..

[striker_1818]

Originally Posted by solo

bush is a f*cktard.. dont care if u flame me for sayin that either. were fighting an immorally wrong and pointless war for financial gain. bring the soldiers back home and refocus on mending our own wounds, that sh*thead bush has caused..

Most people with moral values agree with you. Others will tell you al-qaeda must be stop so we should nuke the middle east. Yet we do nothing but arm the terrorist group based in miami that commits terrorist attacks against Cuba. Go democracy?

[psyshack]

We have to stay and finish the job.

I for one like Bush.

The only person that is running for pres. I like is the x mayor of NYC.