Government: Let's Talk!

[skiddy]

Originally Posted by Dwn4nythng

All you idiots that voted for Bush are plain stupid and narrow minded. We are in a 365 BILLION dollar debt because of this idiot Bush. Clinton and his era, everything was booming and WE ALL had more money to spend then we have now. How can any of you idiots support Bush. What? You want to be poor? Don't get me wrong, I have money and I still say this bastard is a idiot. We lost this stupid war, he should MAN UP and admit he lost the shit. I guess its good that there's stupid ass republicans around or the other people wouldn't look so dayam smart. I'm into guns, but do I support this dumb ass, NO! Either way I can get my guns legally or illegally, I can care less. The thing I can't stand the most is dumb ass Republicans. Open up your narrow minds and think outside the box. Think for the whole world and not just yourself, selfish asses.

Hindsight is always 20/20. And read up on your Clinton history.

Btw, I didn't vote for Bush.

[Janizary]

I just wanted to congratulate (most) of the posters in this thread. It has (amazingly) avoided both the natural discord such a topic invites, (most) replies have been at least somewhat thought out, and so far this thread rates 'low' on the Natural Selection meter

The exceptions are fairly obvious, however.

[striker_1818]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070214/...secret_prisons
it's all over the news in the rest of the world but here...

[sickyute]

secret prisons???? joe shmo ... ...
SECRETS all over!!!! many many many that people of the world know but US citizens don't ... reasons why the world becomes so hateful / dislike the US and US citizens wonder why ...

travel, get educated, talk to the people, listen to their news if u can ... then u'll understand ... otherwise u just won't have a clue.

[aki]

Originally Posted by striker_1818

It won't be good for us since gas prices will go up for it will be good for such gov't's people.
Let's not forget chavez was giving discounts to US homes when prices wentup the hill so during the winter, we wouldn't have to pay such high prices. Yet I see people comparing Chavez with Hitler and Saddam Hussein.
Bolivia as poor as they're doing, their economy is growing but the US is sanctioning them for shutting the door in their face and take over the oil facilities. Ecuador is having a mini social revolution due to US pressure on that country. Not even going to argue about the new misnister of defense(i dont know the exact position i gotta look it up) in the US which caused the salvadorian genocide in Central America.
Things like that upset me the most. Specially when people don't know the real truth behind poor countries which economy has been through hell thanks to the big ol US.

I'm sorry but all of your posts about politics (and especially the one about taxes) have been marred with lapses in logic and a failure to understand world politics, not to mention correct terminology. You have not provided even one compelling argument, and seem to be seeded in ideological whims rather than facts. Please provide sufficient explanations, as you randomly jump from one irrelevant topic to another. You jumped from Venezuela to Bolivia to Ecuador to El Salvador and then back to Venezuela.

1) Salvadorian "genocide": What are you talking about? The civil war in the 80s was between same ethnic Salvatorians and thus cannot be labeled genocide. The factional battle was between two political ideologues: democracy and socialism... if that (more class divide if anything) Either way it was NOT race. Hence you can't even call it genocide. The battle was between Duarte's (corrupt) PDC and the FMNL backed in part by Fidel Castro. While the US initially supported Duarte's government, they later on even went as far as to impose sanctions. Class struggles drove much of the momentum for revolution--whether it was the farmers or those who were losing land under Duarte's land reforms.

2) Discount to US homes... huh? How can a Venezuelan president dictate housing in the United States? And it doesn't matter how many reforms he implements, the reality is he IS creating an authoritarian government. You're fallaciously arguing that his policies are beneficial, and therefore not authoritarian. Whether something is beneficial has no bearing on whether the policies are authoritarian. You keep missing this.

3) All of Chavez's boasted improvements to the economy are suspicious. His programs have caused spiraling debt, impacting inflation. According to Boston Globe, his spending has caused poverty to increase by 10% in 2004. And even with the burgeoning oil industry, the private sector still is hurting from the red tape, not to mention the insecurity that investors feel with Chavez's increasingly socialist policies. China has showed a free market economy is the way to go, even with socialist countries. Chavez seems poised to revert back to antiquated, mid-20th century Marxism.

4) As for increasing oil prices being good for Venezuela, that is only a temporary solution. Increasing prices reduce demand, and countries will look more towards alternative fuel solutions. That is why the fuel price dropped dramatically after last summer: the OPEC didn't want biofuels and hybrid technology to reduce worldwide demand for petroleum fuel.

[sickyute]

the one thing u can't dispute is that poor coutries that try to stad up for themselves are sanctioned (to say the least)and guess what ?? more poverty and strife is created = frustration and a pressure point ... then everything spirals from there.

[aki]

Originally Posted by Dwn4nythng

All you idiots that voted for Bush are plain stupid and narrow minded. We are in a 365 BILLION dollar debt because of this idiot Bush. Clinton and his era, everything was booming and WE ALL had more money to spend then we have now.

Plain stupid and narrow-minded... perhaps you're the one that's ignorant and narrow-minded?

National debt on Clinton's 1st day as president:
$4,188,092,107,183.60

National debt on Clinton's last day as president:
$5,727,776,738,304.64

That's a $1.54 trillion dollar increase in national debt. So who's stupid and narrow minded?

[ErMasta]

Sickyute i asked you a question. I quated you on the question asked.....And please what small countries are you speaking off? Examples please?

[striker_1818]

Originally Posted by aki

I'm sorry but all of your posts about politics (and especially the one about taxes) have been marred with lapses in logic and a failure to understand world politics, not to mention correct terminology. You have not provided even one compelling argument, and seem to be seeded in ideological whims rather than facts. Please provide sufficient explanations, as you randomly jump from one irrelevant topic to another. You jumped from Venezuela to Bolivia to Ecuador to El Salvador and then back to Venezuela.

1) Salvadorian "genocide": What are you talking about? The civil war in the 80s was between same ethnic Salvatorians and thus cannot be labeled genocide. The factional battle was between two political ideologues: democracy and socialism... if that (more class divide if anything) Either way it was NOT race. Hence you can't even call it genocide. The battle was between Duarte's (corrupt) PDC and the FMNL backed in part by Fidel Castro. While the US initially supported Duarte's government, they later on even went as far as to impose sanctions. Class struggles drove much of the momentum for revolution--whether it was the farmers or those who were losing land under Duarte's land reforms.

2) Discount to US homes... huh? How can a Venezuelan president dictate housing in the United States? And it doesn't matter how many reforms he implements, the reality is he IS creating an authoritarian government. You're fallaciously arguing that his policies are beneficial, and therefore not authoritarian. Whether something is beneficial has no bearing on whether the policies are authoritarian. You keep missing this.

3) All of Chavez's boasted improvements to the economy are suspicious. His programs have caused spiraling debt, impacting inflation. According to Boston Globe, his spending has caused poverty to increase by 10% in 2004. And even with the burgeoning oil industry, the private sector still is hurting from the red tape, not to mention the insecurity that investors feel with Chavez's increasingly socialist policies.

4) As for increasing oil prices being good for Venezuela, that is only a temporary solution. Increasing prices reduce demand, and countries will look more towards alternative fuel solutions. That is why the fuel price dropped dramatically after last summer: the OPEC didn't want biofuels and hybrid technology to reduce worldwide demand for petroleum fuel.

Demand and supply is the law of economics but when such supply is needed, such laws don't exist anymore and we're forced to pay the price. You can look at the example when each barrel was as high as $ 70 each and gas prices went up to almost $4 a gallon for regular. Supply and Demand didn't affect that now did it?

Discounts on oil prices to US homes. Yes, Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez did that. 30-50% off what you would originally pay for others is HUGE. Especially with crude winters happening throughout the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_PBSUCCESS
Peace

[aki]

Originally Posted by striker_1818

Demand and supply is the law of economics but when such supply is needed, such laws don't exist anymore and we're forced to pay the price. You can look at the example when each barrel was as high as $ 70 each and gas prices went up to almost $4 a gallon for regular. Supply and Demand didn't affect that now did it?

Discounts on oil prices to US homes. Yes, Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez did that. 30-50% off what you would originally pay for others is HUGE. Especially with crude winters happening throughout the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_PBSUCCESS
Peace

Ugh you don't read a single sentence do you? I MENTIONED SUPPLY AND DEMAND. Pearls to swine, I'm done here.

Do yourself a favor, actually read on these topics and form your own opinions rather than blathering off on someone's knee-jerk viewpoints.

[striker_1818]

Originally Posted by aki

Ugh you don't read a single sentence do you? I MENTIONED SUPPLY AND DEMAND. Pearls to swine, I'm done here.

Do yourself a favor, actually read on these topics and form your own opinions rather than blathering off on someone's knee-jerk viewpoints.

lol okay.

[sickyute]

Originally Posted by ErMasta

Sickyute i asked you a question. I quated you on the question asked.....And please what small countries are you speaking off? Examples please?

i didn't see ur question ... i'll go back to look.

[sickyute]

Originally Posted by ErMasta

Please Enlighten me with the foolish reason the US has sanctions on Cuba?

just one.... and i'll say it like a question ...
do u think it's right for them to stop u from sending money/gifts to ur relatives and friends because basically they say the money isn't staying here?

i mean ... the people are here legally and work their asses off ... pay taxes ... whatever little they can do to help loved ones they'll do .. it's not up to the government to decide that for them ...

i'm not here to argue but that's a foolish reason and a foolish sanction ... and that's just one ...

when i say smaller countries i speak for the whole caribbean/ west indies and any country smaller than the USA ...

[20strong]

Originally Posted by BLU BY U

how many terrorist attacks have there been on US soil since 9/11?

lets see here......uhhh.....yea....and then......oh yea.....0.

Thanks BLU I was thinking the same thing. Everyone talks about big bad america but that is exactly what we need to be if you kill our people we will wreak vengance on you. As far as the other topics I think that it is great that everybody can discuss these heated topics with a level of respect. I am PRO gun, if you take firearms out of law abiding citizens the only people that will have them is criminals. Abortion I am pro choice, we have to many children that have to live in poverty so if a woman and a man can not take care of a child and feel that it is not a good thing to have one then they should have the right to terminate. I do believe that you should only have the choice up till 18 weeks though. Bush, I am for Bush mostly based on the fact that regardless of how Iraq is going or wether it was legal or if we should pull out he stands behind the men and women that fight for our country and protect our way of life even if they dont agree with what they are fighting for. I think that they need to build a super highway lane so that drivers with the proper permit could drive faster.lol. just a silly thought that I thought of today.

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by 20strong

Thanks BLU I was thinking the same thing. Everyone talks about big bad america but that is exactly what we need to be if you kill our people we will wreak vengance on you.

Aside from a good portion of our efforts in Afghanistan, that isn't exactly what we are accomplishing.

[ErMasta]

Dude yes if it is going to the wrong hands. Per dollar Fidel taxes you 10% percent.....Gifts? What? You knew very damn well that the choice you were making was a hard one. They sure as hell don't need to come here. Tehy can go to other countries that do not these laws in place.

Once you leave Cuba or any other country because of oppression. You should realize that you are making a sacrifice. You must leave everything behind. I know is hard sometimes to say it but ...Is a choice you made. This country did not make this choice for you , Fidel made it for you. I know because i am in those shoes. I am not a hard liner either. I think you should help only the people close to you. Meaning mother, father, wife and kids. That is enough......other people on your family can make their choices.


Is funny how all you hear people say well they don’t let us go to Cuba went we want to or i cant send stuff over to them....Well Let me ask this...How many Cuban tourist do you see here? Since im Cuban i tell them this....Go back to Cuba if you do not agree with this. Funny shit how they get here and like to complaint but in Cuba they don’t and cant say shit. This country did not take anything away from them ...Once again Fidel did. Why would you risk your life on a damn raft if Cuba is so great? And then you want to complaint that you cant go back to WHORE Cuba. Oh yes i love this old farts that go back with their hard earned money to wife a 16 year old Cubanita.

All you hear is how they want to see their family.....Is bullshit!!! BTW if you really want to go you can always go thru a third country like Mexico.

I'm for lowering the embargo, I swear I am!
...but only when Cuba makes certain concessions. I would certainly support removing the embargo if:
1. That all Cuban political prisoners and prisoners of conscience be released immediately and granted an unconditional amnesty.
2. That all Cubans be allowed to move freely within the country.
3. That the existing system of apartheid-like segregation be eradicated immediately, specifically that all Cubans be treated as equals to their foreign counterparts.
4. That all Cubans be granted access to all sources of uncensored information, whether in broadcast, print, or Internet immediately.
5. That all Cubans be granted the freedom to express their opinions freely without fear of repercussions.
6. That all Cubans be allowed to travel abroad freely.
7. That all Cubans be allowed to live, work, and seek a better life for themselves as they see fit.
8. That all Cubans be allowed to elect their leaders through verifiable, transparent democratic elections as allowed for in Cuba’s last legitimate constitution, the Constitution of 1940
^^^^ I bet you will not see that happen...Or anyone talk about this on CNN, BCC and most of the news networks.

You are absolutely right about the Caribbean. I do not agree to what they did to Haiti but Haiti was a French colony. France should help them. Dominican republic is ok so far. The Bahamas are scared dearly of a free Cuba. I do not know you are not giving me any specifics of their issues.

Here are a few links with examples of what im talking about. And no they are not from Fox news:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...13/wcuba13.xml
http://www.publiuspundit.com/?p=3163



I can go on but is getting to long and im afraid you won’t read it lol. You want more let me know.

[striker_1818]

I'll read =] please continue so i can argue with you.

[sickyute]

i'll read but i won't respond ...
it will turn into what this thread is not about ...
i know the specifics of many of the islands but not all ...
recently the bahamian people were fighting the efforts of the american government to make them american ... people prefer to have their own culture and history regardless of anything else ... the USA fails to realize that.

as for the cuba argument ... i won't argue ... it will get heated. ...
so on my part it's over ...
let the thread continue.

[ErMasta]

Ok sickyute,

Np....I did not want to argue with anyone here...It was meant to be a discussion and you are right . We are getting off topic.

[striker_1818]

Originally Posted by ErMasta

Ok sickyute,

Np....I did not want to argue with anyone here...It was meant to be a discussion and you are right . We are getting off topic.

Please argue with me and I'll prove you wrong or at least try and if i can't i'll just say you're right. And of course I respect everyone's opinion i don't call people names =] that's just silly