Worst civil liberties measures ever enacted in American history.

[paso2x]

The American Civil Liberties Union said the new law is "one of the worst civil liberties measures ever enacted in American history.''

"The president can now, with the approval of Congress, indefinitely hold people without charge, take away protections against horrific abuse, put people on trial based on hearsay evidence, authorize trials that can sentence people to death based on testimony literally beaten out of witnesses, and slam shut the courthouse door for habeas petitions,'' said Executive Director of American Civil Liberties Union - Anthony D. Romero.

"Nothing could be further from the American values we all hold in our hearts than the Military Commissions Act,'' he said.

[firmhonda]

I don't even know what to say about this. I'll leave it at I hate George Bush with a passion.

[striker_1818]

Originally Posted by paso2x

The American Civil Liberties Union said the new law is "one of the worst civil liberties measures ever enacted in American history.''

"The president can now, with the approval of Congress, indefinitely hold people without charge, take away protections against horrific abuse, put people on trial based on hearsay evidence, authorize trials that can sentence people to death based on testimony literally beaten out of witnesses, and slam shut the courthouse door for habeas petitions,'' said Executive Director of American Civil Liberties Union - Anthony D. Romero.

"Nothing could be further from the American values we all hold in our hearts than the Military Commissions Act,'' he said.

Bush has been doing that ever since he took office by detaining middle east descendent people for interrogations. 9/11 happened, and his doings were found. But because it was "terrorism" and people were afraid, WE gave him the authority to do whatever he wants(patriot act and phone tapping) and we went to war against Afghanistan then Iraq killing innocent people. After all that, he got re-elected and our debt can increased from billions(Clinton left a surplus to the Bush administration when they took office which they threw away) to trillions that didnt fit on wall street's screen monitor.
So yeah, this is what's been going on...
1st was Bush senior, then it's W. Bush. The number of dead soldiers surpass the # of deaths in the WTC. Yet Bush said the troops will stay in Iraq and Afghanistan until 2010.

[tygerSI33]

DICKtator G. W. Bush is an IDIOT!!!!!!!!!

The above law just proves again that the United States is becoming a Communist government.

[LunchBoxed]

Only in the good 'ol U S of A..."Land of Hypocrisy"

I don't think it will be too long before the entire world turns on us. Every great superpower has met its downfall and we aren't far from it, IMO.

P.S. - I love my country, but I can't stand its leaders.

[striker_1818]

Originally Posted by LunchBoxed

Only in the good 'ol U S of A..."Land of Hypocrisy"

I don't think it will be too long before the entire world turns on us. Every great superpower has met its downfall and we aren't far from it, IMO.

P.S. - I love my country, but I can't stand its leaders.

It's funny how republicans have been turning themselves in or their friends in to keep their political status.
Senator Foley an idol for protecting children a gainst pedophiles with its recent scandal went complete the opposite way by getting freaky through emails and IMs with a 10 or 11 yr old kid...
Republican Florida mayor Jeb Bush giving assylum to cuban terrorists, fraud, money laundry, etc.
and the list goes on...

[firmhonda]

You know, I think that it is ridiculous that the comparison has not been made between the "ethnical cleansing" of Hitler and the "protection of freedom" of Bush. I have nothing but respect for Bush when it comes down to him being the most brilliant thief in our time. The bastard of an oil company becomes president and oil prices skyrocket, and this is supposed to be a coincidence? He also figured out a way to leave two countries in such a position that the American people really had no other choice but to re-elect him. If John Kerry had been elected, he could not have made much more of a difference. I am positive that he could have had a fraction of our soldiers in Iraq as we do now, but at the time of election war was the only way. President Bush made sure of this..

I also agree with Lunchboxed, America is on a downhill slope and unless something drastic happens with the next leader that we have it will cease to be. I mean, everything that America was founded for has already been voided *taxation without representation*. Not to mention the freedom that we have all been given has been taken advantage of so much that we have traded security for freedom. The right to bare arms was a very useful idea when it was listed in the constitution, but does nothing but causes battles now. Have you ever thought about what America would be like if there was not even one gun store?

The American way of life (imo) is a cancer on the world and I understand why people hate this country as much as they do. Values and traditions have no place in our society, just smile and sweep the problems under the rug and everything will be alright. This is why I would love to live in Canada. You never hear "Canada was attacked today by terrorists killing 2000 people." I also think it is absolutely ******* ridiculous that stem-cell research has been put down as much as it has been. This is something that could potentially save millions of lives and better others but because of the source of stem cells, it is immoral? Really? It is immoral to make use of things that will otherwise go to waste in the pursuit of saving lives and possibly curing diseases? Give me a break.

America has done a lot of good in its day, but I think it is very possible that this country has run its course and has nothing but problems in its future. I do not see any reason to not say that America will indefinitely be the cause of the third world war. All because of the "freedom" that we all have and take for granted and the leaders that we elect. Not to sound too crazy but we are electing our own demise.


To the fullest extent of the definition, this was a rant. Sorry...

[Mattz280]

What's wrong with this law? It's not like its going to be used against anyone who is honest in any way, or even for minor to intermediate crimes. It will be used for terrorists, serial killers, etc. If you are one of those people, you deserve to be taken out back and shot without even a chance to explain yourself.

Try living in Canada with a bunch of bleeding heart, left wing liberals who try to avoid punishing the leeches of society at all costs instead of just disposing of them. Also, instead of bringing in immigrants who are financially secure, lets bring in a whole bunch of poor people, tax the honest hard working Canadians to death, and not teach them to be Canadian so they can disrespect our society while emptying our pockets.

At least it still means something to be American, being Canadian is nothing now, there is no such thing. My family has been in Canada since the 1700's, and I tell people I'm Canadian...then they say "no, where are you from originally?" CANADA you ignorant A**HOLE!

Anyway...now I am done my rant!

[Mattz280]

. Have you ever thought about what America would be like if there was not even one gun store? Some people like to shoot for, you know, fun? Like playing darts or pool?

This is why I would love to live in Canada. You never hear "Canada was attacked today by terrorists killing 2000 people."

They have tried. A plan to blow up downtown Toronto with a giant fertilizer bomb was discovered and stopped. And guess what? They were children of immigrants who came here and probably leech on welfare. Also, a student at Waterloo university was buying supplies for a terrorist organization. We shouldn't let anyone from "those" countries into Canada anymore, we don't need them here.

Also, if you lived in Canada, you would be paying 30% income tax if you made 50k/yr and closer to 50% if you were over 100k. You would also pay 14% tax on everything you buy in Ontario. Moreover, if you were an educated professional, you would make the same or less in Canadian $$ as you would in the US, and everything would cost more. Also, try ordering anything off the internet...you have about 0.001% the choice as in the US and for many things you have to pay rediculous customs fees.

So basically, you would have less wealth (unless you're a welfare bum, in which case you would have more), worse weather, and a 0.3% chance of getting shot versus a 0.5% chance in the US unless you live in a ghetto.

Summary: If you are an uneducated bum who makes $10/hr, you will be better off in Canada. Otherwise, you are better off in the states (barring crummy ghetto areas). If I had the choice to be reborn again, I would choose the US.

[striker_1818]

Originally Posted by Mattz280

What's wrong with this law? It's not like its going to be used against anyone who is honest in any way, or even for minor to intermediate crimes. It will be used for terrorists, serial killers, etc. If you are one of those people, you deserve to be taken out back and shot without even a chance to explain yourself.

Try living in Canada with a bunch of bleeding heart, left wing liberals who try to avoid punishing the leeches of society at all costs instead of just disposing of them. Also, instead of bringing in immigrants who are financially secure, lets bring in a whole bunch of poor people, tax the honest hard working Canadians to death, and not teach them to be Canadian so they can disrespect our society while emptying our pockets.

At least it still means something to be American, being Canadian is nothing now, there is no such thing. My family has been in Canada since the 1700's, and I tell people I'm Canadian...then they say "no, where are you from originally?" CANADA you ignorant A**HOLE!

Anyway...now I am done my rant!

It violates everything we stand for
and this nonsense "hearsay evidence":
You know in an accident people tend to avoid the truth and come with an alternative truth that was thought out with their brain. It basically means you disguise the truth by creating an image of what you wanted it to happen instead of what really happens. This is psychology and proven scientifically.
This is why people investigate instead of asking eye witnesses. When a car crash occurs, forensics start working and the police starts writing eyewitnesses reports as a side report. 60% will contradict the 40%.
So hmm u want to be an american lol
be glad ur canadian and travel around the world without people hating on you.
90% of the world population hates us. The 9% do too but dont want to admit it since we "protect" them. 1% love us(Israel and the UK)

So you even know why this war against "Terrorists" began?
If we so desperate try getting rid of terrorists we might want to start looking at our own backyard -Florida-and put in jail cuban terrorists which killed more than 2000 cuban civilians and the US knowing this has given them assylum.
i wanna live until i get old, buy a supercar and hook up with 18 yr old girls...

[Mattz280]

I'd still rather have the career choices and wealth of being American versus having people "like me more" for the one week out of the year that I'm travelling.

[firmhonda]

Originally Posted by Mattz280

.We shouldn't let anyone from "those" countries into Canada anymore, we don't need them here.
and a 0.3% chance of getting shot versus a 0.5% chance in the US unless you live in a ghetto.
(barring crummy ghetto areas). If I had the choice to be reborn again, I would choose the US.

I have no idea what the immigration situation is in Canada, but I live in Texas.. We have mexican immagrants that burn the american flag in protest. We have mexican immagrants that fly the mexican flag over the american flag. Mexicans (not meant to be disrespectful in any way) are the majority over all other races combined in texas, and most of them are illegal immagrants. I find it hard to believe that canada could be much worse, especially since I'm talking about just 1 state out of 50.

As far as the getting shot thing, I think it was 2002 or 3 that in Canada there were somewhere close to 400 gun-related deaths, as opposed to Americas 12000. From where I've been in America, at least 33% is a ghetto.

This is all my opinion.

Remember, the grass is always greener...

Originally Posted by striker_1818

i wanna live until i get old, buy a supercar and hook up with 18 yr old girls...

God Bless You sir.. We have the same dream.

[Jaranath]

Originally Posted by Mattz280

What's wrong with this law? It's not like its going to be used against anyone who is honest in any way, or even for minor to intermediate crimes. It will be used for terrorists, serial killers, etc. If you are one of those people, you deserve to be taken out back and shot without even a chance to explain yourself.

Try living in Canada with a bunch of bleeding heart, left wing liberals who try to avoid punishing the leeches of society at all costs instead of just disposing of them. Also, instead of bringing in immigrants who are financially secure, lets bring in a whole bunch of poor people, tax the honest hard working Canadians to death, and not teach them to be Canadian so they can disrespect our society while emptying our pockets.

At least it still means something to be American, being Canadian is nothing now, there is no such thing. My family has been in Canada since the 1700's, and I tell people I'm Canadian...then they say "no, where are you from originally?" CANADA you ignorant A**HOLE!

Anyway...now I am done my rant!

Speaking as a bleeding-heart, left-wing American liberal who tries to avoid punishing the leeches of Canadian society rather than just "disposing of" (uh...) them:

Although I disagree with some of the more emotionally charged and superficially inaccurate comments made by my fellow liberals here, I do agree with the fundamental opinion of the ACLU regarding this recent law. This is indeed very far from Americal values, violating core concepts of civil liberties that informed American society from the beginning and existed at least 500 years before our revolution.

Your opening statement is a painfully familiar and naive refrain: What's the big deal? This doesn't hurt me or anyone I care about, and we can trust the government to only use it on Really Bad Guys who had it coming anyway. Like, oh, say, Maher Arar.

I'm tempted to a lengthy rant of my own about this, but I'll resist. Suffice it to say that I find it sickening that we are willing to engage in torture, farm the worst of it out to other nations, and generally suspend practices of due process and fair legal consideration under any circumstances. That the targets are foreign makes barely any difference to me; that they may be "terrorists, serial killers, etc." none at all. It is also my understanding that the early drafts of this legislation made no distinction for foreigners, and still carries too much risk of being applied to citizens, possibly with future amendment. This is appalling.

This is cliche by now, but it was written precisely for these situations:

They came first for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me,
and by that time no one was left to speak up.

And, finally, a recent comment by Garrison Keillor:

"I got some insight last week into who supports torture when I went down to Dallas to speak at Highland Park Methodist Church. It was spooky. I walked in, was met by two burly security men with walkie-talkies, and within 10 minutes was told by three people that this was the Bush's church and that it would be better if I didn't talk about politics. I was there on a book tour for ''Homegrown Democrat,'' but they thought it better if I didn't mention it. So I tried to make light of it: I told the audience, ''I don't need to talk politics. I have no need even to be interested in politics – I'm a citizen, I have plenty of money and my grandsons are at least 12 years away from being eligible for military service.'' And the audience applauded! Those were their sentiments exactly. We've got ours, and who cares? The Methodists of Dallas can be fairly sure that none of them will be snatched."

[Garrison]

Ok I guess I agree with most of what you guys say. However, the alternative of having a democrat in power is far worse. Lets look at New Orleans, Ray Nagin had a company contact him asking if they could remove the cars from the storm of the street after insurance claims for free. Instead he gave a company 1 million dollars to remove cars. Every senator or representative is there to get theirs. "Use my company to do that." Each side has their issues. I guess it boils down to lesser of two evils. We need another party who encompasses the good aspects of both existing parties. I think Social Secuirty does needs to be reformed, I think the federal income taxes should go to the fairtax system. I think immigration needs to be fixed. I think pork barrel spending needs to cease. I think If convicted of a felony you should not be able to serve in congress. I think we need to quit babying the U.N. and pull funding if they don't prosecute Koffee Anon for all the stuff he is mixed up in. Thats my two cents. This is what happens when you seperate church and state!!! A moral void is created.

[striker_1818]

Originally Posted by Garrison

This is what happens when you seperate church and state!!! A moral void is created.

And when you join them, you see fanatics.
It's funny how the Pope condems islam for supporting fanatics...
But when Bush said the war against terror will be a "crusade", he used God's name, he said this was God's nation, the Pope said nothing about it.
This is a lose-lose situation

[LunchBoxed]

Originally Posted by Garrison

Ok I guess I agree with most of what you guys say. However, the alternative of having a democrat in power is far worse. Lets look at New Orleans, Ray Nagin had a company contact him asking if they could remove the cars from the storm of the street after insurance claims for free. Instead he gave a company 1 million dollars to remove cars. Every senator or representative is there to get theirs. "Use my company to do that." Each side has their issues. I guess it boils down to lesser of two evils. We need another party who encompasses the good aspects of both existing parties. I think Social Secuirty does needs to be reformed, I think the federal income taxes should go to the fairtax system. I think immigration needs to be fixed. I think pork barrel spending needs to cease. I think If convicted of a felony you should not be able to serve in congress. I think we need to quit babying the U.N. and pull funding if they don't prosecute Koffee Anon for all the stuff he is mixed up in. Thats my two cents. This is what happens when you seperate church and state!!! A moral void is created.

But, religion causes problems for governments and vise versa. The Middle East is an example of this.

And, Republicans have profited far more off this country than any other political party.

[Jaranath]

Originally Posted by LunchBoxed

But, religion causes problems for governments and vise versa. The Middle East is an example of this.

No, no, no! LunchBoxed, the troubled Middle Eastern theocracies would be ideal utopias, except for one detail: They're Islamic, rather than Christian. That detail corrupts everything they do. If they had the right faith, everything would be puppies, kittens and rainbows.

You see? The problem isn't what they're doing, it's that we aren't the ones doing it.

[striker_1818]

what the... u just contradicted yourself in every single point you made

[Si-aficionado]

I used to blindly believe and trust this government.. after doing some research and watching this video, I changed my mind


The best 9/11 video ever..don't believe me, see for yourself

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...ysteries&hl=en

[aki]

I think the Bush haters have a blissfully naive view of US politics. You think the world hates us because of Bush? No, they've always hated the US. Now they have an even better reason to.

http://www.commondreams.org/views/102300-103.htm

Do you think Iraqi's have died only under Bush's regime? No, if you don't get indoctrinated to left-wing garbage, you'd know that people died under the Clinton administration as well. 500,000 Iraqi children have died between 1991 and 2000, according to UNICEF, due to the stiff sanctions from United States. Guess who was president for eight of those years? Clinton. So dump that wishful thinking that the United States was warm and fuzzy to the world bringing daisies to every one. Bush is just as evil as every preceding president. The difference is the American people have been so oblivious to the country's imperialistic and burdensome policies that they somehow think the core of the foreign policy issue resides with only one person residing in the executive branch of our democratic system.

No, the problem is far deeper. Let's face it, our country profits off other's misery. I sit at work comfortably, drive a nice car, have all the different foods to choose from at the expense of the poor. If you think greed with oil started with Bush, you have a rather idealistic view of this nation. It has always been greedy. The difference is Bush is playing his cards out in the open--and extremely poorly. Let's face it, too: the backlash against the Iraq war is not due to moral concerns, but because the war isn't going well. Had Rumsfield and the Pentagon had the brains to get a functional police/military force in place quickly, our troops wouldn't be dying every month.

Back to the original topic, Bush has this power because *we* the people have let him. We said nothing to the Patriot Act, which paved the way for unjustified detentions. Our post-9/11 phobia made us paranoid enough to relinquish our rights without even hesitation. Had there been dramatic backlash, it wouldn've survived a Congressional vote.

Yes I think Patriot Act, and all of his other views on terrorism is extremely flawed--and when abused will give the government unlimited power to jail and torture people at will. But these ridiculous laws have only been passed because our local federal legislators let them. And they let them because we as a people just let them slide.