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Old 07-02-2010, 03:03 AM   #161 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 20strong View Post
What is the biggest differance between the daily driveability of a synchro style transmission and a Dog engagement style transmission? Considering either would be run with a twin disk clutch?
The biggest difference is that if you daily drive a crash box (i.e dog engagement), you will very quickly destroy the engagement teeth. It is called a crash box for a reason, and is impossible to avoid tooth-on-tooth collision, as that is how it functions. You would shift more in 1 day of driving, than you ever will on a lifetime of a 100% drag car. Anyone who says differently is either a fool, or sells dog gears. Ever wondered why circuit/rally drivers need to repair their dog teeth more than drag racers?

With synchro engagement, you have "brakes pads" called Synchro Rings slowing the gear down to matching speed before engagement occurs. Provided your brake pads are in good condition, wear and tear to the engagement teeth are very minimal.

Last edited by MFactory; 07-02-2010 at 03:04 AM.
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Old 07-02-2010, 04:06 AM   #162 (permalink)
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mucter: The biggest hurdle that any gear manufacturer has, when developing a gear set for a Honda, is that we are restricted to the oem Honda FWD design; from the axle/motor layout to the size of the transmission. Put simply, we have to make gearsets based around a transmission sized for 200hp max. If we had more room like the domestics (whether US Muscle or EU Saloon), we wouldn't be having so many issues.

You can do all you want in regards to tougher materials (toughness > strength) and advanced treatments, but at the end of the day, we are still limited to the general oem gear size. Make the oem gear twice the size, and you wouldn't be having these issues.

For gear sets, the reason (well, our reason anyway) for developing gears is about efficiency, not strength. Anyone who promotes a gear set, limited by oem restrictions, purely for strength purposes is a fool. The manufacturer can boast about space age technologies and competition achievements all they want, at the end of the day, the more people that use the gears, the more issues will appear (i.e 100 gear sets sold has a much higher chance of issues appearing than 20 gear sets sold. This has been proven time and time again, but unscrupulous salesman neglect to include this fact when promoting their products). Street car drivers usually don't have the budget to be changing spare parts like a race team does.

So what is this efficiency I talk about? Put simply, if you are never going to drive 200mph+, then why have a transmission geared for this? Not only does this generate more load on your transmission, it also makes you slower.

The speed limit is 70mph (here in the UK anyway), and most that I know would never go past 110mph on the freeway. So why not use your motor to it's fullest potential and have your transmission geared accordingly; say, for example, 130mph max.

By doing this, not only will you actually get better fuel economy, but you can actually turn your power down without sacrificing performance i.e you will be just as fast. Again, not wanting to post a link to our website, but if you go to our website, read our article on Torque Multiplication under Resources.

Like what we have achieved with amazing success internationally with our B and D Series Close Ratio Gears we have for the street cars (there is no argument that MFactory are the #1 manufacturer of performance gears for the everyday B & D Series Street Car), our goal with the K-Series is to provide you with drivetrain efficiency with less power, without sacrificing performance. As our company motto implies, there IS a replacement for displacement.

Just some food for thought
You just lost the game.

There are so many things wrong with everything you just said to me.... I'm no gear expert, but it's pretty obvious that you are the one who's trying to be a salesman here.

Like I said, we don't care who is a salesman, we're concerned with people developing products that fit our needs. Why are you speaking out against Albins? Just talk about your product and how it would fit our needs. No need to compare it to your competitors.

You're obviously missing the entire point of this thread.

No one here is ever going to agree with limiting their car to 130 mph top speed. That would destroy our cruising MPG on the freeway. Our cars are geared to go to 190 mph because it puts our RPM at a reasonable point for optimal kPa at cruise.

Then there's the matter of efficiency. We're all boosted.... like hell we want shorter gears?!? We want longer gears, more time, in a gear, fully spooled = more speed, more efficient use of our torque.

When I go to the track to run the 1/4, I have to shift into 5th gear. I lose precious time with that shift. I want to be able to stay in 4th for the duration of my run. Your efficient gears would put me in 6th gear, I'd actually end up going much slower due to the extra shift.

You need to go back and read this thread carefully post by post, then tell us if your company really has anything to offer us. I am truly interested, but you need to actually listen to our desires on this topic.

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Last edited by mucter; 07-02-2010 at 04:09 AM.
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Old 07-02-2010, 04:20 AM   #163 (permalink)
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I'm not trying to be a salesman, I'm trying to offer advice on gear efficiency. It doesn't matter whether you are NA or Boosted, the same principles apply. Longer gears for boosting is a myth, disproven many aeons ago when people starting use the LS tranny for Boosted B-Series. The better use of your power, the faster you will be.

I'm not speaking out against Albins, they are a good product, as are the PPG's. Why would I speak out against them, when I've recommend them to customers? Infact, if you really must purchase a gear set right now, I would suggest getting the Albins, not ours. Our current gear set was not made for your application. The point of me posting is to research into developing a gearset for the street market.

The 130mph was an example. If you are concerned with cruising mph, then keep the oem 6th gear for that purpose. You don't need to change all 6 gears. Nothing is set in stone, as we are only at the research stage just now.

As a lot have mentioned, the reason for this thread is to get manufacturers to listen to your desires, ALL of your desires, not just a few specific people. Not everyone goes to the drag strip, most are happy just driving around on the street, some go to trackdays.

I post in this thread to gather important research data as to what would be the best compromise, nothing is set in stone yet. Posting with the attitude like you just have, is what pushes manufacturers like us away

EDIT: I see how the last sentence in my post above may seem as promoting our company. I probably shouldn't have posted that, and I apologise. I have edited the original post.

Last edited by MFactory; 07-02-2010 at 04:41 AM.
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Old 07-02-2010, 04:29 AM   #164 (permalink)
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i think there should be a poll for what we want and wtv most ppl want an then albines or mfactory can know what to make us
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Old 07-02-2010, 04:56 AM   #165 (permalink)
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I'm with mucter, slightly longer 4th. one less shift in the quarter...faster time because I DIDN'T HAVE TO SHIFT, AND TURBO DIDN'T HAVE TO SPOOL UP AGAIN. Sorry MFactory, I'm not buying your sales pitch one bit.


I'll sum up the last few pages. There are several of us who want quite, stock ratio gears that can handle 300+ torque. Thats all we want, seems pretty simple to me.
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Old 07-02-2010, 05:03 AM   #166 (permalink)
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For drag racing, yes, you want to cross the line at the end of 4th. If this is what the majority of what you guys want (i.e drag racing ratios), then this is how we would base our ratios.

This does not mean you can't have more efficient gearing to achieve this, which is what I have been trying to say all along. I did not say you have to shift into 5th or 6th. You can have 1st-4th ratios set for maximum efficiency for the drag strip.

I explained the reasoning, but so far both of you have decided to just fob me off as unproven theory and sales pitch (yet I'm not even selling anything). I don't need to go out and do research on metallurgy and treatments and what works or what doesn't on a Honda transmission, nor need to ask the Manufacturers of the products I'm selling for advice. I design and manufacture drivetrain components for a living; I already know all this stuff and deal with it on a daily basis with our K-Series Touring Cars, I don't just sell another manufacturers products. I guess I'll just have to stop posting my sales pitches in this thread.

Good luck with your search for a gear set. I'm sure Erikos can provide you with the all information/advice you require from this point forward

Last edited by MFactory; 07-02-2010 at 05:25 AM.
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Old 07-02-2010, 05:25 AM   #167 (permalink)
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The biggest difference is that if you daily drive a crash box (i.e dog engagement), you will very quickly destroy the engagement teeth. It is called a crash box for a reason, and is impossible to avoid tooth-on-tooth collision, as that is how it functions. You would shift more in 1 day of driving, than you ever will on a lifetime of a 100% drag car. Anyone who says differently is either a fool, or sells dog gears. Ever wondered why circuit/rally drivers need to repair their dog teeth more than drag racers?

With synchro engagement, you have "brakes pads" called Synchro Rings slowing the gear down to matching speed before engagement occurs. Provided your brake pads are in good condition, wear and tear to the engagement teeth are very minimal.
Ok, so straight cut (I dont care about the noise) 1-4 gears with synchro engagement is a good compramise between a performance Transmission and reasonable drivability.

Oh on the max speed thing, I currently live in Germany. I would love to be geared in 6th for over 200mph
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Old 07-02-2010, 07:05 AM   #168 (permalink)
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Mfactory, even thou there's some disagreements on here I still think I'd be great for u guys to make us gears
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Old 07-02-2010, 07:50 AM   #169 (permalink)
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Smh! You guys are the worst! You shoot down more people that try to help than any I've ever seen! Mfactory has been around for a while and obviously wanted to HELP and you all just pull out the shot guns! Give them a frickin chance!
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Old 07-02-2010, 09:46 AM   #170 (permalink)
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As far as the trans goes, I'm in general agreement with everyone (minus the bashing).
I personally like the following idea:
Keep same/similar final drive
1-4 semi helical (1st can be straight cut, but i'd prefer being able to use a syncro even in first)
It MUST be daily drivable, especially in chicago, therefore I cant sacrafice drivability, and I cant have a dog box.
5th can be from TSX and 6th OEM
A longer 4th gear wouldnt be bad...

A rating for torque rather than HP would be nice, since TQ is what breaks transmissions, not HP (we can increase our HP by increasing our redline.....)
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Old 07-02-2010, 11:23 AM   #171 (permalink)
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Smh! You guys are the worst! You shoot down more people that try to help than any I've ever seen! Mfactory has been around for a while and obviously wanted to HELP and you all just pull out the shot guns! Give them a frickin chance!
Not trying to be a jerk but this is when we tell them what we want. We are breaking trannies left and right so yes we need them, but that doesn't mean they can tell us what they think we need. Gears a large investment and they affect every aspect of the cars driveablity. but thanks for your input guy.
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Old 07-02-2010, 11:45 AM   #172 (permalink)
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i asked this in another thread but really didnt get an answer to ill ask in here. is there a difference between "wheel hop" and "wheel spin"?
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Old 07-02-2010, 11:59 AM   #173 (permalink)
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i asked this in another thread but really didnt get an answer to ill ask in here. is there a difference between "wheel hop" and "wheel spin"?
yeah, wheel hop is distructive. Wheel spin isnt.

Wheel hop, you'll feel the whole front end bounce up and down, wheel spin is just lack of traction.
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Old 07-02-2010, 12:03 PM   #174 (permalink)
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reason why i ask is because i see in other threads that "wheel hop" in a big cause of our transmission failure. with reading that i think a big thing that seems to help wheel hop is a set of motor/torque mounts. i also noticed that every person so far who has broken something in their transmission has doody injected mounts. can we say that injected mounts = fail? maybe dont be cheap and invest in some good mounts and it might hold your transmission a little bit longer?

i dont know much about transmissions, just going based on reading threads and observation. i didnt know where else to post this info so i figured this would be a good place. if a mod thinks it can go somewhere else then please move this post...
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Old 07-02-2010, 12:06 PM   #175 (permalink)
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Don't yell at me guys, cause i already know; but i'm still on stock mounts and a tq damper. I am getting some innovates soon :/
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Old 07-02-2010, 12:09 PM   #176 (permalink)
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Don't yell at me guys, cause i already know; but i'm still on stock mounts and a tq damper. I am getting some innovates soon :/
again im based on observation and reading. but you, supa, and wrecked are the 3 people who broke trannys already. you are on stock mounts, supa and wrecked are injected. 300wtq is a lot of tq to be putting to the motor. if the mounts are not solid, it will destory your transmission...
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Old 07-02-2010, 12:18 PM   #177 (permalink)
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When i first inj my mounts everything was awesome. something happened and my diff when south on my. just about every hard launch had wheel hop. believe me boombas are on the list. I'm sure once the tranny is all back together i'll be wheel hop free since I got a working diff again. there are a couple of the big power guys that were injected, but some boombas, didn't care for the vibration, and went back to injected mounts without any problems.

injected mounts is definitely not cheaping out, they work and it just happens to be inexpensive.
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Old 07-02-2010, 12:25 PM   #178 (permalink)
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I think inj mounts are awesome, but I'd rather have the real deal. Especially making a ish load of power.

I've got the boombas and since they're broken in, I barely notice them.
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Old 07-02-2010, 12:33 PM   #179 (permalink)
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I think inj mounts are awesome, but I'd rather have the real deal. Especially making a ish load of power.

I've got the boombas and since they're broken in, I barely notice them.
Same here. Ever since they got broken in...I barely notice them. It sounds like my motor is going to drop when in reverse though...lol.
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Old 07-02-2010, 12:39 PM   #180 (permalink)
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i have the engine driver and passenger and torque mounts and they are not bad once they broke in took about a month since i don't drive it much, but now i have to break in another set because i wanted red ones instead of natural ones that are on my car.
my engine does not move one bit it's like it was bolted to the frame
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