So i think im going to take up buddhism... - Page 5

MBK · 05-17-2007, 03:34 PM

octopus. snake.

civsnake · 05-17-2007, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aki

And self-sufficiency is overrated. Any honest person should be able to say that they need something else to get through life, whether it be relationships, God, material wealth, or whatever else people seek to fulfill themselves.

A person who admits they need relationships or money to get by is different from needing religion. Other people and material wealth exist and are observed every day. Religion preaches faith in that which cannot be observed. When your parents told you Santa Claus wasn't real, did it suddenly make your life that much harder to handle? As compared to, say, being dumped or getting fired from your job? It's just perspective, man.

MBK · 05-17-2007, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by civsnake

A person who admits they need relationships or money to get by is different from needing religion. Other people and material wealth exist and are observed every day. Religion preaches faith in that which cannot be observed. When your parents told you Santa Claus wasn't real, did it suddenly make your life that much harder to handle? As compared to, say, being dumped or getting fired from your job? It's just perspective, man.

what is real.

***Jaranath*** · 05-17-2007, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aki

It doesn't seek to "help" you--it tells you that you can't help yourself. That's not a terribly comfortable thing to hear, which is why I don't think it's much of a crutch.

I see.

Nobody finds comfort in Christianity, then. Nobody follows "it tells you that you can't help yourself..." with "...but hey, Good News (tm)! God can, and all you have to do is believe"? And certainly, nobody finds comfort in times of extreme suffering such as the death of loved ones in assertions that they're "going to a better place," or stops to wonder how those who reject an afterlife would console mourners.

Yes, I know you don't assert that no one finds comfort in Christianity, but your comment leaves that impression, and I get annoyed when people argue that religion doesn't serve as a security blanket.

civsnake · 05-18-2007, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MBK

what is real.

Whatever isn't imaginary.

**firmhonda** · 05-18-2007, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by civsnake

Frankly, yes, billions of people have a big issue. They've refused to move on to new ways of thinking. In a lot of cases it's not really their fault, they've simply never been told that there's another way to look at things.

THEORY:
The main thing seperating humans from other higher-level primates is cognitive ability. When the split occured, our genetic line evolved into higher level problem solvers. As we became physically less capable we developed a brain that allowed for the reasoning and problem solving so we could overcome these disadvantages. We don't have claws, but we can sharpen volcanic glass and lash it to a stick, etc. Humans are genetically hardwired to solve problems.

Early in human history we could only figure out so much. But what about natural occurances? Why does it rain? A man sticks his hand in a river, cups it, and brings the water back out. He tips his hand and water trickles out in drops. Observation: water fell from thin air because I made it happen. It couldn't have done so otherwise. In order for water to fall from the sky, something must be willing it to happen. It must be like a man, because it decides to make water fall from the the sky, otherwise water would always fall from the sky. But it's bigger than a man, more powerful. It decides when water falls from the sky. Eureka, we've figured it out! Powerful beings with human-like personalities cause weather. We've just invented deities! If they're like us, they're subject to moods and desires. We should do our best to make sure they're happy. We would like to be worshipped, why wouldn't they? Hooray, we just invented religion!

Skip through the next several ages of man and you can easily figure out how people realized they could gain power and wealth by exploiting the system, but it all started with the first people who were willing to settle for the "God's Will" answer for probelms that were, at the time, inexplicable.
END THEORY

I think religion is a relic of times passed. It persists because some people need it to find hope and because we still haven't figured out all the answers to the universe. So blue_rocket is correct; for some people it really is a crutch. Others just never knew there was another way to see things.

repped

civsnake · 05-18-2007, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaranath

I get annoyed when people argue that religion doesn't serve as a security blanket.

It's true. As much as religions can be a hassle, everyone gets something back from it, and in most cases it's a sense of security.

aki · 05-18-2007, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by civsnake

Frankly, yes, billions of people have a big issue. They've refused to move on to new ways of thinking. In a lot of cases it's not really their fault, they've simply never been told that there's another way to look at things.

Except I started out as an agnostic and rejected Christianity.

Quote:

I think religion is a relic of times passed. It persists because some people need it to find hope and because we still haven't figured out all the answers to the universe. So blue_rocket is correct; for some people it really is a crutch. Others just never knew there was another way to see things.

As for "people need it to find hope", yes, that's a huge reason. I think it's a valid concern, given that by conventional theories of science all that will remain of you 10^150 years later is just some photons and leptons aimlessly in space at a temperature barely over absolute zero (I expect Jaranath will chime in here about heat death not being an established theory, but you get my point).

Some look to religion as a crutch. Some "know" there's another way. I'll offer you a third option: and some spend their entire lives trying to run away from the gaping hole of emptiness--pretending it doesn't exist and trying to wash it away by indulging themselves in the post-modern roar of cars, sex, booze, drugs, or whatever other frivolities to numb the dull pain of a vapid, senseless existence (brought together by the random mash of nucleotides and amino acids in a primordial lipid soup).

***Jaranath*** · 05-19-2007, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aki

I'll offer you a third option: and some spend their entire lives trying to run away from the gaping hole of emptiness--pretending it doesn't exist and trying to wash it away by indulging themselves in the post-modern roar of cars, sex, booze, drugs, or whatever other frivolities to numb the dull pain of a vapid, senseless existence (brought together by the random mash of nucleotides and amino acids in a primordial lipid soup).

I think we discussed this before, too, so probably no new ground here, but... Let's assume for the moment that as you suggest, the lot of any atheist is to wallow in shallow, self-destructive, depressing frivolities because the human spirit is inevitably crushed by the concept of an utterly indifferent universe.

So what?

Wanting the universe to love me doesn't make it so. Arguing that I should accept a hypothesis because it makes me feel better or more "whole" doesn't have any traction with me.

Even more so because I reject your starting assumption. I don't know many atheists stuck in the sort of consumeristic, hedonistic rut you imply, and even if I did, I see no reason for them to remain in it. To suggest that atheism is spirit-crushing is to suggest that the human animal and the universe have no value beyond the concept of God. I reject that.

What's more, I reject that the concept of God should make a difference. Oh, I know that in practice, for individuals it does; the classic refrain so many give is that it gives their life meaning. But why does meaning matter? Am I any less ME if I know, or assume, that no god or force has a plan that involves me? Would I feel any less love or sadness, find any less wonder in a deep-sea cephalopod or a symphony? And if I do need some sort of meaning (sure, it's possible), then why must it come from someone or something outside myself? And what sort of meaning does that source grant...that I'm here to follow a deity's instructions? To serve something bigger than myself? I can do that here and now, and I prefer "somethings bigger" that I can investigate, test, challenge and understand.

But again, the above is pretty much irrelevant. For many (I would suggest most, with a nod to the "no true Scotsman" overtones), atheism is not a matter of what we want, despite the claims of some theists.

civsnake · 05-20-2007, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaranath

Would I feel any less love or sadness, find any less wonder in a deep-sea cephalopod or a symphony?

Hell yeah, phylum mollusca and J.S. Bach FTMFW.

Aki, you're consistantly making the same mistake in assuming that without a belief in an afterlife, there's no purpose or meaning in this life. Everyone would like to feel like what they did in life mattered. But why does there need to be a cosmic judge that decides what was important and what wasn't, and why is it that a person would want their rewards after finishing the life they tried so hard to make meaningful?

I'm going to die, and I only plan on living once, so you better believe I'm going to do the best I can in this life. I'm not trying to meet a minimum standard so I can get into an ethereal VIP room; I'm trying to make sure that I live this life as well as I can, free of regret, and only for personal pride and satisfaction. If you want to feel like you did something with your life, do something that will help people around you and they will remember it and appreciate it. What more could a person want on their way to becoming nothing?

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05-17-2007, 03:34 PM	#81 (permalink)
MBK Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 6,757 iTrader: 3 / 100%	octopus. snake.