Why the debt ceiling serves no useful purpose - 8th Generation Honda Civic Forum
8thCivic.com

Go Back   8th Generation Honda Civic Forum > Off Topic > On Topic


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-16-2013, 10:55 AM   #1 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Arlington, VA
Age: 32
Posts: 6,381
fecurtis just put it into 1st gear on 8thcivic
Why the debt ceiling serves no useful purpose

The next fiscal fight: From cliff to ceiling | The Economist

Good read, particularly since I'd imagine most people on here mirror most people I know personally in that they have no idea what the debt ceiling actually is or what raising it actually does.

fecurtis is offline  
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 01-16-2013, 05:40 PM   #2 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 706
SergEK just put it into 1st gear on 8thcivic
Point blank - even if the debt ceiling isnt raised we take in 200 billion a month in taxes and out interest payments are 30-40 billion a month - we will pay our debt - the military (which is by law) and all other MUST haves

There will be cuts to checks to those who are receving assistance which is beyond out financial means and the reason Republicans wanted cuts in the first place.

The dems havent passed a budget in 4 years and continue to run up crazy debt with no end in sight. This is the only way to have them address the REALITIES of not having any more money to fund their handouts.

If people have less money - there is less demand - less demand - lower prices - less money needed to buy the same goods and services.

The government receives more than enough money to operate on an emergency basis - but perhaps people who dont care about congress or how government works will finally wake up and see our debt, our defecits and understand the party is over.

We cant keep kicking the financial can down the road -- the piper has to get paid and since Obama seems to think he is above the law - a reality check is just the ticket.

Let the American people come together to take care of eachother and realize that government is nothing without the people sending in money -- in the end its up to citizens to help their fellow citizens and I think charity organizations will be ready and willing to handout food/shelter to these folks who checks will be cut.

You cant borrow your way into a roaring economy - you have to let the people use their freedoms to work for it --- step one - EPA regulations that are impeding business growth GONE! lol

SergEK is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-16-2013, 08:21 PM   #3 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,957
ryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivic
Debt ceiling is accountability. Stop the wasteful spending.

-you can't borrow your way out of debt.
ryker is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-16-2013, 09:51 PM   #4 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
iamchris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 3,933
iamchris just put it into 1st gear on 8thcivic
The solution is simple. If I max out my credit cards for example. Is the solution to increase my credit card limit? No, it's to stop my wanton spending.
iamchris is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-17-2013, 07:57 AM   #5 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Arlington, VA
Age: 32
Posts: 6,381
fecurtis just put it into 1st gear on 8thcivic
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamchris View Post
The solution is simple. If I max out my credit cards for example. Is the solution to increase my credit card limit? No, it's to stop my wanton spending.
That analogy doesn't even really apply, you raise the debt ceiling to pay your bills, not to buy more stuff.

It'd be like saying "screw it, I want to save money, ignore the bills".
fecurtis is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-17-2013, 11:04 AM   #6 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
iamchris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 3,933
iamchris just put it into 1st gear on 8thcivic
Quote:
Originally Posted by fecurtis View Post
That analogy doesn't even really apply, you raise the debt ceiling to pay your bills, not to buy more stuff.

It'd be like saying "screw it, I want to save money, ignore the bills".
We need to raise the debt ceiling because we're grossly over spending, and so we need to pay the bills for that spending. If you want to save money you save money.
iamchris is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-17-2013, 12:03 PM   #7 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Arlington, VA
Age: 32
Posts: 6,381
fecurtis just put it into 1st gear on 8thcivic
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamchris View Post
We need to raise the debt ceiling because we're grossly over spending, and so we need to pay the bills for that spending. If you want to save money you save money.
This is true, but you can do that without the debt ceiling. It's not used as a tool to promote ways to save money, it's used as leverage to get what you want. Considering that the debt ceiling needs to be raised to pay for obligations already in place, it's a dangerous thing to mess around with.
fecurtis is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-17-2013, 02:53 PM   #8 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,957
ryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivic
Obligations can be meet with cuts. The same tough choices that you or I have to make every single purchase.
ryker is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-17-2013, 07:20 PM   #9 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 706
SergEK just put it into 1st gear on 8thcivic
Quote:
Originally Posted by fecurtis View Post
That analogy doesn't even really apply, you raise the debt ceiling to pay your bills, not to buy more stuff.

It'd be like saying "screw it, I want to save money, ignore the bills".
We make more than enough to PAY our bills now - the dems want to CONTINUE TO SPEND MORE

Did you not see the fiscal cliff deal?

The cut 1 dollar for every 42 dollars they spent -- uhhh not exactly how you create a balanced budget or spending

Obama care has TRIPLED in cost from original projections - its now going to COST Americans about 2500-3000 a year when Obama said it would SAVE Americans money...which was a lie of course but the sheep never do the math to see how bad it really is

Point being we have a limit of debt for a reason - if we were borrowing for a war, thats one thing - we racked up crazy debt in WW2 -- but right now this is just social spending - stuff that really has no return

When we put America to work in the 40s we made factories, built a huge labor force, modernized assembly lines, made america a manufacturing powerhouse - the taxes on those industries has more than paid the debt it took to get us there

Right now we are spending on welfare - that does not create a labor force, or modernize our factories or create a boom in the economy

So while we MIGHT approve a higher debt ceiling the spending would have to justify the means

Its like borrowing for a student loan for college vs a trip to Europe for 3-4 months

One is an investment with a payoff while the other is a WANT --- not the same

So Obamas "vacation" spending has to come to an end and this is how the republicans who were voted in to stop his spending will get it done. His credit card is maxxed -- his free stuff giveaway is over

He has been spending money while also choking buisness growth -- burning the candle at both ends killing our growth in the economy and causing crazy unemployment for minoroties everywhere -- we can get america working again by reducing taxes and lifting regulations which only hurt our economy - they are self imposed and hurting us -- lift them put people to work and get us going in the right direction - not broke and and sitting at home
SergEK is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-17-2013, 10:09 PM   #10 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Arlington, VA
Age: 32
Posts: 6,381
fecurtis just put it into 1st gear on 8thcivic
Quote:
Originally Posted by SergEK View Post
We make more than enough to PAY our bills now - the dems want to CONTINUE TO SPEND MORE

Did you not see the fiscal cliff deal?

The cut 1 dollar for every 42 dollars they spent -- uhhh not exactly how you create a balanced budget or spending

Obama care has TRIPLED in cost from original projections - its now going to COST Americans about 2500-3000 a year when Obama said it would SAVE Americans money...which was a lie of course but the sheep never do the math to see how bad it really is

Point being we have a limit of debt for a reason - if we were borrowing for a war, thats one thing - we racked up crazy debt in WW2 -- but right now this is just social spending - stuff that really has no return

When we put America to work in the 40s we made factories, built a huge labor force, modernized assembly lines, made america a manufacturing powerhouse - the taxes on those industries has more than paid the debt it took to get us there

Right now we are spending on welfare - that does not create a labor force, or modernize our factories or create a boom in the economy

So while we MIGHT approve a higher debt ceiling the spending would have to justify the means

Its like borrowing for a student loan for college vs a trip to Europe for 3-4 months

One is an investment with a payoff while the other is a WANT --- not the same

So Obamas "vacation" spending has to come to an end and this is how the republicans who were voted in to stop his spending will get it done. His credit card is maxxed -- his free stuff giveaway is over

He has been spending money while also choking buisness growth -- burning the candle at both ends killing our growth in the economy and causing crazy unemployment for minoroties everywhere -- we can get america working again by reducing taxes and lifting regulations which only hurt our economy - they are self imposed and hurting us -- lift them put people to work and get us going in the right direction - not broke and and sitting at home
I'm on my ipad so it's hard to respond to all of this, but in the 40's we had the highest average income tax in modern history, today we have amongst the lowest.

While I agree for the most part that lower taxes is beneficial, lower taxes don't help unemployed people much who don't have any income coming in.

I will say that in general, democrats have a "throw money at it" approach to problem solving hence the need for republicans to come in and take the reigns in terms of fiscal responsibility. Problem is, with modern republicans, they seem more concerned with looking out for a select few.
fecurtis is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-18-2013, 10:40 AM   #11 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,957
ryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivic
In the 40s we didn't have the other massive taxes. Today we have hundreds of other forms of taxation.

Lower taxes help everybody. As that money is removed from the consumer market and moved to govt wasteland.

Both political sides have a spending issue. Politicians from both sides love to spend other peoples money.
ryker is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-18-2013, 10:56 AM   #12 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Arlington, VA
Age: 32
Posts: 6,381
fecurtis just put it into 1st gear on 8thcivic
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryker View Post
In the 40s we didn't have the other massive taxes. Today we have hundreds of other forms of taxation.

Lower taxes help everybody. As that money is removed from the consumer market and moved to govt wasteland.

Both political sides have a spending issue. Politicians from both sides love to spend other peoples money.
I said income tax rates. In the 40's it was about 90% for the top tax bracket.

For cap gains, the top rate was about 22%.
fecurtis is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-18-2013, 02:16 PM   #13 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Arlington, VA
Age: 32
Posts: 6,381
fecurtis just put it into 1st gear on 8thcivic
The GOP may end up abandoning the debt ceiling stand off, for good reason:

Charles Krauthammer: A new strategy for the GOP - The Washington Post

If you don't feel like reading it, Charles Krauthammer argues (and apparently a lot in the GOP realize this now) that it's not leverage if people know you won't go through with your threat and default. Coupled with the fact that in the polls most Americans would blame the GOP should it happen, it's a poor strategy to get your spending cuts that you want.

Not exactly fair to the Republicans for sure, so they'll have to rely on the sequestration measures again to try to get what they want.
fecurtis is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-18-2013, 03:57 PM   #14 (permalink)
VIP Member



 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 37,358
Strate L O S S just put it into 2nd gear on 8thcivicStrate L O S S just put it into 2nd gear on 8thcivicStrate L O S S just put it into 2nd gear on 8thcivic
Why the debt ceiling serves no useful purpose

Krauthammer is a jack-off.
Strate L O S S is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-18-2013, 04:14 PM   #15 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Arlington, VA
Age: 32
Posts: 6,381
fecurtis just put it into 1st gear on 8thcivic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strate L O S S View Post
Krauthammer is a jack-off.
Maybe it was the stroke.

EDIT: Wait, I forgot he dove into a pool with no water at Harvard. So he's a jack-off and a dumbass.

Last edited by fecurtis; 01-18-2013 at 04:15 PM.
fecurtis is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-06-2013, 05:25 AM   #16 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 706
SergEK just put it into 1st gear on 8thcivic
Quote:
Originally Posted by fecurtis View Post
I said income tax rates. In the 40's it was about 90% for the top tax bracket.

For cap gains, the top rate was about 22%.
And how many people got taxed at 90%? Very very few

Today the top 5% pay about 30-35% of the tax bill the upper 49% pay 99.8% of it and the bottom 51% of Americans pay 0.2% of it combined

You want the people to wake up -- spread the tax love and TAX them like everybody else.

When the bottom 51% of Americans get TAXED at 10-15% and DO NOT get a refund check there will be riots in certain parts of town where people normally get H&R block refund cards to spend their refunds before the money is even in their bank accounts - if you look at the APR its ridiculous how much they pay to get their money a few weeks early to go blow it

When the avg americans FEELS the pain THAT is when REAL action can take place because they will get vocal enough to get the medias A.D.D attention and cover it.

People who actually believe that Republicans are only for "rich white people" are do disconnected from reality I just shake my head and walk away --- Senator Reid the ex'boxer from Nevada went to washington relatively broke - now after decades in Washington he is a multimillionaire --- you think he got rich with his civil salary?

Inside info - networking - back scratching etc....they all go into office to become power players - power = money

So to think some RICH democrat is fighting for "poor" people is laughable - as many times they are the ones in bed with the vary companies that snooker minority neighborhoods with payday loans, car title shops, fast food and liquor stores -

Fiscal responsibility isnt a Left or Right thing -- logic is -- Logical thinking tells you that you cant spend money to make things go away --- you have to address the real problems head on -- not bandaid them with meds

Have you heard of the "war on poverty" the dems constantly foot stomp at every gathering they have in urban neighborhoods? 30+ years in California they have been saying their policies were going to transform the state into the future.

Our state is in the red
Our test scores are near the bottom
Our Crime is near the top
Our corruption near the top
Our fraud/waste/abuse = ridiulous levels

So over 30 years the dems in power have turned what was a state that once had students in the top 5 performing near the bottom 2 --- culture change

The dems culture mind you is a "victim" culture -- one where through no fault of your own you have been held down by others in society through various means both physical and even some psychological means you were not even aware of. Because of that - you are entitled to received a free pass - because you deserve it -- you might not have ever actually performed a valuable service to the community in your life but hell - your breathing so that means we are gonna roll out the red carpet for you and just elevate you on our shoulders because - poor you - you never even had a chance

Its such BS but its been beaten into kids in this sate since kindergarden they actually LOWERED the standards to pass them through high school - but because of this trick to keep graduation rates "decent" scores on standardized national tests have steadily dropped.

Our schools are producing droves of idiots who couldve been so much more -- but the "victim" bargain was easier and cheaper to pass along as it requires pretty much next to nothing from the Teachers Union.

These teachers who have now taught and passed idiots will receive full pensions for ther rest of their lives at 60-90% of their pay FOR LIFE some of them making 80-90k a year for teaching HIGH SCHOOL level classes.

Logic tells you the system is flawed - that these poor kids deserve better - our country deserves better - the kids are our future in business, technology, science etc...but rather than improve our kids - the dems back the unions - which keep the status quo and the horrible scores year after year

Education spending is at or near the highest levels its ever been - but our scores are near the lowest

So much like the rest of the coutry choked by regulations and government involvement you need the private sector to work its magic

In charter schools - teachers get paid for performance - oversight - kids are held to higher standards - cant meet the standards - cant attend this school - thanks for coming - there is another kid ready and willing to perform at his best - you Mr. Thuglife can go to the school down the street with the rest of your homies

More schools, more jobs, more oversight, less waste, better students, safer students, smarter kids = better communities = better cities = better America

Logic

But here in our state its a battle over union pensions, union labor, union sick days, furlough days, pay raises, etc etc....the focus is NOT on the children - its on the MONEY

In california schools are paid based on attendance - the feds dont care if the kid is illegal or not --- as long as its a warm body - they send the school money for each day the student shows up- so you wonder why teachers unions LOVE illegal aliens?

This government bloat and red tape is killing our country at every level - each category has laws upon laws which add to the cose of doing business without really curing any ills that are even there.

The EPA is killing business and shutting down sectors with regs that are self imposed by our government -- we are choking our own economic power in the sake of what? Perceived value

Meanwhile our citizens suffer REAL pain without work - higher food prices and a devaluing dollar that makes savers almost look like fools.

Fiscal responsibility = logic = is the basis of any real hope a future worth having

Stop the waste - stop the spending - stop devaluing the dollar - stop racking up interest payements and start investing in REAL programs that better America.

Incentives for schools that perform ABOVE the standards
Scholarships for students who perform ABOVE the set standards

Reward PERFORMANCE and not excuses - thats America

Rigging the game because one guy works harder to make it so the other guy feels like a loser and you want to make them "equal" - is against human nature. There is always a number one - which means there is probably someone better than you at something - thats ok - thats called LIFE

The dems try to regulate life to counter balance those who excel - punishing the rich for making too much money? Seriously? Remember REWARDING performance - money = reward

At some point the dems at the bottom will be faced with the music the upper dems have been playing for them --- once the bill hits, and the utopia crumbles -- there might be an 'aha! moment but it will be too late.

Like I tell dems all the time - eventually you run out of OTHER PEOPLES money

Smarter kids - better business- better economy - stonger America

Watch Idiocracy the movie
SergEK is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-06-2013, 05:47 AM   #17 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 706
SergEK just put it into 1st gear on 8thcivic
Quote:
Originally Posted by fecurtis View Post
That analogy doesn't even really apply, you raise the debt ceiling to pay your bills, not to buy more stuff.

It'd be like saying "screw it, I want to save money, ignore the bills".
No its

Hey joe, remember when I made that silly bet that I could pay you to cut my lawn forever -- well --- I got a call from my bank and they said my credit line has been cut and well --- I cant afford to keep you employed cutting my lawn for $2000 a month --- I know it would be really nice for me to keep paying you but you see the evil bank wont lend me anymore money even though I explained to them how badly you would be effected by me not being able to pay you....they said to tell you to find another line of work

Politicans made PROMISES --- federal programs are not RIGHTS they are PROMISES from previous politicians who "claimed" they could sustain the party forever

Well the party snowballed into a goliath of a Vegas trip and the house is calling in the marker the previous jackasses used to gamble away our dollars.

You dont borrow more to gamble more - you drink some water and sober up and realize the Vegas trip is over - popping bottles is over - time to go back to real life

Real life is budget thats paid AFTER you take the money in - with money in hand you make the HARD decisions about where it goes. If you need more money you devise a way to invest what you have to make it GROW and thus make you even more money to use on the PLANNED expenditures

Congress has failed to PLAN a budget in 4 years and the current budget is over by about oh --- 1000% from the original projections by the math wizards of politics.

Take money in - plan on where it goes - spend it - view results - readjust plans - take in money - repeat

You dont borrow - gamble - crap out - borrow more - crap out - borrow more to pay off the previous gamble and gamble even bigger to offset your previous losses

We send those people to addiction counseling

A real budget is BLACK - not drenched in red forever

You spend money where you get the biggest return - I think a food kitchen that prepares wholesome meals is better than a debit card that can be used to buy cigarettes, booze and junk food.

If you are receiving assistance from the government I dont think you should have the luxury of killing yourself with it and end up on government health care further draining the rest of us because your too stupid to take better care of yourself.

Thats the dilema -- foos stamp recipients want to buy whatever they want -- but if they are on gov money, gov health care, living in gov housing -- what makes them think they are in any position to make the rules on what they can and cant eat/drink/smoke? When they have a real job, with their own place and their own health care --- they can kill themselves all they want -- they've EARNED it by then - until then Uncle Sam should be able to make the rules they live by in exchange for HELP --- otherwise its not help - its called enabling
SergEK is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-06-2013, 06:28 PM   #18 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
iamchris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 3,933
iamchris just put it into 1st gear on 8thcivic
holy ******* wall of text
iamchris is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-06-2013, 07:43 PM   #19 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
giftd151's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 720
giftd151 just put it into 1st gear on 8thcivic
Quote:
Originally Posted by SergEK View Post
Today the top 5% pay about 30-35% of the tax bill the upper 49% pay 99.8% of it and the bottom 51% of Americans pay 0.2% of it combined
Where are you getting those numbers from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SergEK View Post
The EPA is killing business and shutting down sectors with regs that are self imposed by our government -- we are choking our own economic power in the sake of what? Perceived value
Care to elaborate on that a bit? Any particular law/rule that you feel is choking business? I realize this is off-topic for this thread, but I'm kind of curious about this one (I think I've seen you post some similar before, but that may have been someone else). Also, you're in SoCal, right? I honestly feel that CARB is more ridiculous than the EPA, but that could also be because I've dealt with CARB more than the EPA.
giftd151 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-06-2013, 07:58 PM   #20 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,957
ryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivicryker just slammed it into 6th gear on 8thcivic
^ our local power plant is shutting down. About 100 good paying jobs will be lost and even worse is our county will not receive the large amount of taxes the power plant paid. Thus my property taxes will increases and I will have to cut my spending.

Another example is new cars must have back up cameras. Consumers can not buy a basic cheap car like the 50mpg 1990 CRX. They must buy the hybrid cr-z at less than 40mpg.

ryker is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the 8th Generation Honda Civic Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
can I use ceiling speakers in the car? nodizil I.C.E., Electrical, Security, & Navigation 6 05-25-2012 09:09 AM
what purpose does nvmyrd4 Bolt-Ons And All-Motor 2 12-17-2008 03:50 AM
stain on ceiling Siwhiteboy Detailing 8 03-16-2007 11:23 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:33 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0
Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
copyright 8thcivic.com - all rights reserved