Modded LX Vs Stock Si?

[Sirbelch]

Originally Posted by 2000civic

I think for the most part they are making this comparison in auto-x standards. If you think about it logically there is no reason why an LX with Si suspention, wheels and tires wouldnt handle on par with the Si. From my experiance the LSD helps the Si, but that is just from hauling ass on the streets, I have never auto-x. I can get the rear to rotate relitivly easy by lifting the thottle. I think the Lx being lighter would have the advantange in auto-x with suspention upgrades, however in any situation for example like a road course the LX is no longer in the picture.

Thank you for being able to see someone else's point of view.

[Ruthless909]

Originally Posted by SoCal07Si

DX FTW!!!

K20 swapped

[Sirbelch]

Originally Posted by Ruthless909

x 10920739847835903264823078497390183947893219473290 4092

If Honda USA did that and slapped on the HFP and Si rear bar ... BAM ... instant USDM Type R.

[ricetastic]

Originally Posted by Sirbelch

To add to what I said, Honda makes the Si for the masses. They have to make compromise at every turn. How do you get a car to have good turn in and a good ride, you put a fat front sway bar on. Big fat sway bars in the front can reduce total front grip. Evn though this is a little of topic but, how do you keep the power hungry people and the EPA happy at the same time? Make a 250 hp engine make 197 hp.

I blew my straight line budget trying to find a suspension that works because I feel Honda didn't give me what I wanted. My 4th suspension (including stock) will be here in two weeks. That's the kind of handling junkie I am.

Yeah but these examples are just you and your buddy. I love the car the way it is actually. I'm gonna to look up the specs on the front and rear sways on the Type R BTW.

Excuse me, these people must be retards:
Revised springs and dampers and fatter anti-roll bars keep this most-entertaining Civic flat, while grip is handled by the Bridgestone Potenza RE070s—the same tires as those worn by the S2000 CR—and huge discs clamped by Brembo calipers bring things to a halt in a hurry.

2008 Honda Civic Type R - First Drive Review - Performance Upgrades - Car And Driver

the genius:

Big fat sway bars in the front can reduce total front grip. Evn though this is a little of topic but, how do you keep the power hungry people and the EPA happy at the same time? Make a 250 hp engine make 197 hp.

In summary:

When extremely intelligent people like you come around and state that you know the key to a well engineered vehicle there are two ways to approach the situation. One is to let you state whatever, the other is to say that you have proven a case works for your specific example. Truth being, you have no lap times or auto-x times to prove you have done better. You say you have done better with your setup. Every video I've seen and press conference I have read about Honda had one thing in mind for their Si, performance. Helical LSDs by experience are one of the best kinds available, if anything they will aid the vehicle.Hmmm, still need to look what size front and rear sways are on the Type R. If you overspeed into a turn and get severly injured is that the cars fault or your fault? For the average driver the Si will understeer, for me the car behaves in a neutral manner. Why didn't Honda ditch the LSD for the Type R?

[habitat]

Originally Posted by SoCal07Si

DX FTW!!!

K20 swapped

Originally Posted by Ruthless909

Originally Posted by Sirbelch

x 10920739847835903264823078497390183947893219473290 4092

If Honda USA did that and slapped on the HFP and Si rear bar ... BAM ... instant USDM Type R.

Oh really? Because the CTR is just a DX with improved engine, suspension, and a rear sway bar?

What about the 17 inch, 4 piston front brembo brakes to slow all that power down?
The close ratio 6 speed tranny to help you stay in the power band?
The use of aluminium materials and increased chassis reenforcement?
Maybe most important, sticky tires!

You have to realize that a "fast" car is not just a product of tight suspension, lightweight, and a powerful engine. It's all of the above, then tuning.

[Sirbelch]

Originally Posted by habitat

Oh really? Because the CTR is just a DX with improved engine, suspension, and a rear sway bar?

What about the 17 inch, 4 piston front brembo brakes to slow all that power down?
The close ratio 6 speed tranny to help you stay in the power band?
The use of aluminium materials and increased chassis reenforcement?
Maybe most important, sticky tires!

.

I just made a "USDM CTR" out of what parts we already have in this country. I wasn't trying to make one that could take on the JDM version, just one for us. Since all the chassis bracing and aluminium is part of the USDM line up, I didn't include it.

So, I forgot to say switch over the Si wheels (the JDM CTR has 18's BTW) brakes too. If you throw in sticky tires a pad and fluid ugrade as well, it would have some nice, fade free brakes that stop shorter too.

As far as the tranny goes, The R-18 tranny won't bolt up to the K20Z3 so I was assuming every one could make the connection that, like all K20 swaps, that the tranny is included in the swap.

The last line I don't understand at all.

"You have to realize that a "fast" car is not just a product of tight suspension, lightweight, and a powerful engine. It's all of the above, then tuning."

What do you mean by tuning? I'm looking to make a factory honda civic that will out perform an Si with current parts that are on USDM civics or offered by Honda.

[Sirbelch]

JDM CTR sway bars 26mm/21mm front/rear
USDM Si sway bars 28mm/17mm front/rear.

Even Honda knows that a smaller front bar and bigger rear bar is the way to go.

[habitat]

Originally Posted by Sirbelch

The last line I don't understand at all.

"You have to realize that a "fast" car is not just a product of tight suspension, lightweight, and a powerful engine. It's all of the above, then tuning."

What do you mean by tuning? I'm looking to make a factory honda civic that will out perform an Si with current parts that are on USDM civics or offered by Honda.

First of all, I'm not accusing anyone of being one of these people I'm about to mention. I do hear, "drop a k20 in a dx it'll run circles around 'X car'" all the time and wanted to be clear that the Type R is not just a DX with a K20 in it.

At the same time, people seem to always seem to think that if you start with a 2500lb car, add this, that, and others, that you'll end up with a 2500lb car with this, that, and others. Fact is, the reason the SI is heavier than the DX is mainly because of the beloved (and heavier) K20! Not to mention the larger rims, brakes, worthless wing, etc. add weight. So, what I'm saying is that if you take a DX and add SI parts, you will more or less be left with an SI in terms of performance AND WEIGHT. Only, your DX-SI costs much more than just an SI.

[RWatters]

I came in here expecting a lot of ignorance, but Sirbelch is going to town! Nice to see that this section has more suspension knowledge now!

And for the record I agree with all things stated. On an autocross course I would think the LX would have an advantage (even moreso if it keeps the stock front swaybar and uses the Si's rear swaybar). Less weight is always a good thing, and on a tight and small course like an autocross course the Si won't get to put it's power to use. The nimbleness of the LX will definitely give it the upper hand, IMO, and I'm pretty sure that is also something honda93 has been preaching for quite some time now!

On an actual track, though, it's a whole different story. lol

[ImBiginKorea]

I understand the concept of the lx being better on a auto-x course, but I don't have an issue keeping my si in the power band its always 5k+ in second or vtec in first (the more tight turns).

--Korea

[ricetastic]

Originally Posted by Sirbelch

JDM CTR sway bars 26mm/21mm front/rear
USDM Si sway bars 28mm/17mm front/rear.

Even Honda knows that a smaller front bar and bigger rear bar is the way to go.

So does Honda not design our cars? Or do lawyers design our cars because of "lawsuits". I still find it hard to believe that " I was illegal speeding and took a turn 25 over and the car understeered and I hit a tree. I wouldn't have been critically injured if it wasn't for the damn car." Point is, if you didn't want an Si, an (M3, M5), RS4 then get the lower models they were based of. If you don't know that when owning an M5, if you stomp on the gas mid corner it will oversteer, you don't deserve to have the car in the first place. Honda93 a user who has been autocrossing for almost how old I am is using the Si front sway on his EX. But then again what does he know? I mean he only has 223 autcrosses under his belt.


Back to topic:

The reason in the discrepencies of the sway bars is to compensate for the different spring and damping rates of the Type R coilovers, the stickier tires, and the various chassis reinforcements. Why have a car that turns in better when the tires won't allow it? What do you mean "even honda knows" what are we talking about here a junkyard company. I don't see you designing advanced F1 cars, I don't see you setting up their suspensions before a race.

Si over EX/LX:

1) Bigger brakes
2) Low profile tires, summer available
3) LSD
4) K20
5) "Enhanced" sway bars
6) Revised struts/springs
7) Electronic Power steering
8) Bigger Rims
9) 6 speed close ratio transmission

and who knows what else

My advice to all:

1) Get stickier tires
2) Get an alignment
...tons of auto-x and track days
3) Sway bars
4) Coilovers
5) Get an alignment
6) Chassis reinforcements
7) lighter wheels

[ricetastic]

Originally Posted by Sirbelch

JDM CTR sway bars 26mm/21mm front/rear
USDM Si sway bars 28mm/17mm front/rear.

Even Honda knows that a smaller front bar and bigger rear bar is the way to go.

With that specific setup it seems as though because the Si has a smaller rear sway bar, it allows for more chassis flex in the rear end of the vehicle vs. the Type R that has about the same size sway bar up front and an even bigger sway bar in the rear which will probably cause the rear end to give out a little easier. I think the Si might benefit from a smaller sway bar with stock all seasons but a set of RE070s like that of the CTR, I would stick with the stock sway bar. O and your never gonna outperform the Si without putting more money into than what its worth. Period.

[vetkiller]

Originally Posted by ricetastic

According to a member "highrev1", the LSD actually makes the car handle worse and he is running lx front sways on his Si right now. So with out further adieu, where is highrev1? Basically to sum up his points an LX would handle better than an Si...

Id hate to say that but that is complete BS. There is no way that the LSD makes the car handle worse unless he has some extreme alignment that prevents it from being fully effective.

I killed a RSX-S in the corners because of my LSD, on winter tires none the less. The LX would lose period, particularly if the Si is kept in the powerband. I think the front stabilizer is solid on the Si as well compared to that of the R18.

[Highrev1]

This is my first post in this thread I don't know why I am being called out...Reducing the roll couple distribution from the front of the civic to the rear would be benifical. The stiffer end loses traction first and that is why I run a smaller front bar....

I didn't say worse...He is claiming I said that, I said....

True an LSD can help with corner exit acceleration, but they also tend to add to "throttle induced" understeer on corner exit as well. I should have gone into more detail with my last post sorry.

"For example, Take an open Diff FWD car accelerating out of a turn. The outside tire is heavily loaded (lots of traction) and the inside tire is lightly loaded (very little traction). In this instance the outside front is using 99% of its avalible traction making the car turn. Once the driver starts adding in throttle, thanks to the open diff, the front inside ends up getting most of the power = possible inside wheel spin, the outside gets a small fraction of power, and has to split its avalible traction between cornering and accelerating.. so you get a little more push and not much acceleration.

Add in an LSD... same instance as above, inside lightly loaded, outside heavy load... except in this case, thanks to the LSD, as the driver adds in throttle, the LSD now forces a lot more of the cars power to the tire thats heavliy loaded and not much to the tire thats lightly loaded... SO, now the front outside tire loses a substantial amount of the traction it was using to make the car turn in order to use it for acceleration, and the inside tire doesnt spin... So you've reduced/eliminated inside wheel spin and increased your rate of acceleration out of turns at the cost of increasing the amount of throttle on understeer the car has...

This only gets worse as you increase the effectiveness of the front anti-roll bar. Because the anti-roll bar effectivly increases the load on the outside front and decrease it more on the inside front... which means the car is relying even MORE on that outside front tire to make the car turn, and any loss in cornering traction in favor of acceleration = more push."

[vetkiller]

^ that is what camber adjustments are for though.

Another thing to take into consideration is the Si breaks and high tach. Going in at mid throttle while breaking and using the heal/toe downshift with the LSD is will lead to faster cornering times.

I'm not really going to argue it with you because you understand all of the physics of cornering. Based on the breaks, powerband and LSD, I believe even with the weight reduction of the LX, the Si would win....and probably by a decent margin. JMHO.

[Highrev1]

Camber doesn't have any effect on roll couple distribution on a car...


On a track SI...On an Autox course with the LX modded and the si stock, the LX would win IMO...I have run against TONY in his LX and me in my SI. We both had Race rubber on and the difference was not enough for me to put my money on the SI for an AUTOX. The track is obviously a different story.

[vetkiller]

^ I was referring to the "push" that you spoke of. Proper camber adjustment should take care of that no?

[Highrev1]

To be very basic. It will help but remember the stiffer end of the vechile will lose traction first...SO big front bar small rear bar front end is stiffer. I know that was very basic but you get the idea...


Stiffer is not better......soften the end of the car you want to have grip more, and stiffen the end of the car you want to have slip more.

I.e. Softer = more grip. Stiffer = Less grip. Tune for feel.

[vetkiller]

^ I hear you. I don't want to thread jack because all of this is more than likely in the sticky but, why do the GTR, Porshe, Vette, and the supercars all have super stiff suspensions if this is the case? If you want the best handling should they not be as soft as ever. Is it because they are built so close to the ground with a super stiff chassy?

If an enzo pulls 1.06 g's on a super stiff suspension by theory it should be able to pull much more than that with a super soft, no?

[Sirbelch]

True, you need stiffer springs to go fast around a corner, but there is a "too stiff." When the springs are too stiff, the car won't have enough weight transfer to push the outside tires into the ground and create maximum grip. Also, if the springs are too stiff, they will bounce off of bumps. When a tire is bouncing, its not touching the road. If its not touching the road, its not creating grip. As a reuslt, you lap times will be slower. That is what is ment by &q