Si Front & Rear Sways on an EX Sedan

[Highrev1]

Correct. It will be an acutal improvment in performance rather than a percieved one.

[zenith931]

Originally Posted by Highrev1

Correct. It will be an acutal improvment in performance rather than a percieved one.

Cool, you're gonna save me some money, too by only getting the rear!

[tegrady]

I still feel that unless you are driving at the limit, having both makes the car much more solid and controlled while still feeling fairly neutral. The setup must be fairly well balanced if it comes from Honda on the Si! If you are tuning for oversteer, then by all means stick with the rear, or put the Si sway on front and a thicker aftermarket on the rear. For my normal daily "spirited" driving, having Si front and rear has worked really well.

This thread could go on forever...........

[zenith931]

Originally Posted by tegrady

I still feel that unless you are driving at the limit, having both makes the car much more solid and controlled while still feeling fairly neutral. The setup must be fairly well balanced if it comes from Honda on the Si! If you are tuning for oversteer, then by all means stick with the rear, or put the Si sway on front and a thicker aftermarket on the rear. For my normal daily "spirited" driving, having Si front and rear has worked really well.

This thread could go on forever...........

All I'm aiming for is to make my car a little more confident and planted in my daily drives. I'm not looking for autox handling or anything.

[nindustrial]

i agree with tegrady.. i put both on mine, and quite enjoy the balanced feel.

initially, i only installed the rear one (it was easier with my jack/ramps) and drove for about a week on it, and found it made quite a difference. it was such a thrill to 'feel' the rear end respond when i threw it into a high-speed corner (again, nothing stupid, just spirited driving).

once i put the front in, it wasnt as dramatic a difference, but definitely felt more planted in the front, especially if corners were going to be bumpy..

imo, for the money you spend, its a cheap upgrade, and doing both really makes me appreciate my car that much more!

[Highrev1]

Originally Posted by tegrady

I still feel that unless you are driving at the limit, having both makes the car much more solid and controlled while still feeling fairly neutral. The setup must be fairly well balanced if it comes from Honda on the Si! If you are tuning for oversteer, then by all means stick with the rear, or put the Si sway on front and a thicker aftermarket on the rear. For my normal daily "spirited" driving, having Si front and rear has worked really well.
This thread could go on forever...........

Neutral??? Do a search for neutral it doesn't exist. Its not balanced by ANY MEANS it is heavily biased towards the front. I am not saying tune to oversteer but just tune out some understeer.

THe thread shouldn't go on for ever, there are facts to tuning a suspension. If you want to be faster and more confident then there are things that work and there AREN"T. While maintaining the stock front sized bar and increasing the rear the car is still controll.

Originally Posted by nindustrial

i put both on mine, and quite enjoy the balanced feel

once i put the front in, it wasnt as dramatic a difference, but definitely felt more planted in the front, especially if corners were going to be bumpy..

You know guys before you go making these uneducated statments why not read a little, THere is a great suspension sticky at the top of the page that will absoutly start you in the right direction.

If it did anything it gave you a less balanced feel even more heavily biased towards the front of the vechile.

As far as it feeling more planted over bumpy surfaces that is an ABSOLUTE falsity....

"Let me start with the higher the suspension frequency grip decreases. SO WHAT? Well this frequencey is a measure of how many cyles per minute or in a second, the car would go through and bounce up and down on springs alone. This matters greatly to you because the stiffer the suspenion is the less contact pactch will be touching the ground over rough surfaces, and if the tires in the air your not gaining traction or grip. The more grip your tires can make, the more force your putting into the car so you will need to up the resistance to body roll to keep it at an acceptable level. Race tires need a much stiffer suspension than a street tire. Cause their grip is that much higher and will cause the body to roll, losing camber and reducing grip.
In simpler terms...you want to run the softest springs you can get away with that reduces body roll to an Livable level, and has an approperate roll couple balance to give you the oversteer/understeer charateristics you want with the most grip your car can achieve."

[tegrady]

Originally Posted by Highrev1

Neutral??? Do a search for neutral it doesn't exist.

Huhh?!?!? So I used the wrong term. No need to get excited, just offering the results that I saw with my car.

I thought I was pretty clear that all of my statements were based on feel (Butt-Dyno) and I don't Auto-X or drive close to the limit. You're acting like it's a completely idiotic move when it's not. It's not like we're talking about a $2,000 mod that's going to ruin the car. My opinion is to spend the $200 or less and see how you like it with each setup. If anything, you remove the front and you're out $80 that you can probably get back on eBay.

Nevermind... Do whatever makes you happy. I'm done.

[Highrev1]

Originally Posted by tegrady

You're acting like it's a completely idiotic move when it's not. My opinion is to spend the $200 or less and see how you like it with each setup. If anything, you remove the front and you're out $80 that you can probably get back on eBay.

Sorry If I came off in an innapproprate way. Its not an idiotic move....we aren't talking about a huge difference between the two bars 25 to 27mm If I rember correctly. With that said any additional Roll-couple distribution to the front of this car would decrease potential handling, that is all I was trying to say

[Sirbelch]

Maybe i could help explain what Revy is trying to say. First, let me give you some perspective on where Revy is coming from. Revy comes from a world of racing. Racing is done on/at the limit. Tegrady, from your statements, it seems that you don't drive at the limit of the car. If you did drive at the limit of the car, you would have noticed that the stiffer front bar makes the car push (understeer) more causing it to be less balanced. At the limit of any car, the end of the car that has the stiffer suspension realitive to the weight it carries (roll-couple distribution) will lose traction first. So in a fwd car, the front end has more weight to carry than the rear. So the more you stiffen the front suspension, the sooner the car will lose traction at the front of the car. If you stiffen the rear suspension, the rear end will lose traction sooner, than it used to causing some oversteer.

If you dont drive at the limit, the stiffer front bar will cause the car to have better turn in which can make the car feel more balanced when it really isn't. If you want a front wheel drive car to have quantitatively (measureble) better handling, you need to increase the stiffness of the rear end relitive to the front. So when you add a stiffer rear bar AND a stiffer front bar, you haven't changed the balance in the stiffness of the suspension.

Honda designs the Si to push (have understeer) from the factory even though honda knows that a car with more oversteer (to a point) will handle better and put up better numbers on the track. The reason that they do this is because most people can't drive their way out of a wet paper sac and because most people cant drive at the limit, a car that understeers is easier to save once it is pushed past the limits. I hope this helped a little.

[poizun]

Originally Posted by Sirbelch

Maybe i could help explain what Revy is trying to say. First, let me give you some perspective on where Revy is coming from. Revy comes from a world of racing. Racing is done on/at the limit. Tegrady, from your statements, it seems that you don't drive at the limit of the car. If you did drive at the limit of the car, you would have noticed that the stiffer front bar makes the car push (understeer) more causing it to be less balanced. At the limit of any car, the end of the car that has the stiffer suspension realitive to the weight it carries (roll-couple distribution) will lose traction first. So in a fwd car, the front end has more weight to carry than the rear. So the more you stiffen the front suspension, the sooner the car will lose traction at the front of the car. If you stiffen the rear suspension, the rear end will lose traction sooner, than it used to causing some oversteer.

If you dont drive at the limit, the stiffer front bar will cause the car to have better turn in which can make the car feel more balanced when it really isn't. If you want a front wheel drive car to have quantitatively (measureble) better handling, you need to increase the stiffness of the rear end relitive to the front. So when you add a stiffer rear bar AND a stiffer front bar, you haven't changed the balance in the stiffness of the suspension.

Honda designs the Si to push (have understeer) from the factory even though honda knows that a car with more oversteer (to a point) will handle better and put up better numbers on the track. The reason that they do this is because most people can't drive their way out of a wet paper sac and because most people cant drive at the limit, a car that understeers is easier to save once it is pushed past the limits. I hope this helped a little.

Very well said.

[tegrady]

Originally Posted by Sirbelch

Maybe i could help explain...

Thanks. I did have a decent understanding of "the stiffer end slides first" idea, obviously in much more laymen terms than you or Revy. So if I understand correctly,what I have done is made things stiffer, but kept the factory level of favoring the front, thus inducing understeer at the limit. I'm OK with that, and like the results. I have previously considered keeping the Si front and putting on an aftermarket rear, so I might try it out and see how it feels.

Again, thanks and sorry if I rubbed anyone the wrong way.

[dryerlint88]

For my EX coupe... which would be a better option? SI front/Progress rear or SI front/SI rear I want the best handling but at the same time I enjoy the quality of ride my car has!

[flsedan07]

Have the si front and rear on sedan. Very little difference if any compared to stock sways

[tegrady]

Originally Posted by dryerlint88

For my EX coupe... which would be a better option? SI front/Progress rear or SI front/SI rear I want the best handling but at the same time I enjoy the quality of ride my car has!

I'd say read through the previous 21 pages and make the call.

[Highrev1]

All I am saying is that putting thsi bars on the cars that already have less valving in their dampers is/can be a less than ideal situation.

Dampers springs and sway bars, all tune the car in different parts of the turn. SO if you are way off on what you put on you could get a car pushes coming into the turn, then is loose mid way through and out of the turn.

Dampers mainly adjust corner entry and exit, Sway bars effect mid corner adjustments....."Meaning if the car is having corner entry or exit problems you adjust the dampers, if it is having mid corner issues then you need to tweak your spring rates or anti-roll bar rates"

"The dampers influence the performance of the car Much more then anti-roll bars.. Anti-roll bars really only influence the mid corner oversteer understeer balance, where as Dampers influence not only corner entry and exit oversteer/understeer balance, but also your acceleration and braking performance as well as contribute to the general stability of the car."

Hope this helps a little

[honda93]

Originally Posted by Highrev1

All I am saying is that putting thsi bars on the cars that already have less valving in their dampers is/can be a less than ideal situation.

Dampers springs and sway bars, all tune the car in different parts of the turn. SO if you are way off on what you put on you could get a car pushes coming into the turn, then is loose mid way through and out of the turn.

Dampers mainly adjust corner entry and exit, Sway bars effect mid corner adjustments....."Meaning if the car is having corner entry or exit problems you adjust the dampers, if it is having mid corner issues then you need to tweak your spring rates or anti-roll bar rates"

"The dampers influence the performance of the car Much more then anti-roll bars.. Anti-roll bars really only influence the mid corner oversteer understeer balance, where as Dampers influence not only corner entry and exit oversteer/understeer balance, but also your acceleration and braking performance as well as contribute to the general stability of the car."

Hope this helps a little

Agreed on most things... I tend to suggest to people that if they aren't going to be pushing the car to its limits, then "beefier" swaybars will help make everyday commutes or spirited drives a little more entertaining. In certain cases, they will make the car ride rougher, especially if only one wheel hits the bump, but for the most part, swaybars are an easy way to add some spring rate to a corner without resorting to springs.

Anthony "Mario" Crea
NNJR-SCCA

[Sirbelch]

I agree with 93. As someone that has gone from just some fun on the streets, to some one that enjoyed the limit more and wanted to get into racing, I can see where both Revy and 93 are coming from. When i put a sway bar kit on my 94 GSR, It was the "best" suspension mod i (thought) put on the car because it made for a bigger change in feel than the Koni Reds and Eibach Pros i put on. But, after i got more confident with this set up and began to raise the limits of driving, i found out that the car pushed more with the thicker front aftermarket sway bar than the stock set up did. Up and until the limit however, i felt that the car was more "fun" to drive.

[racerx78]

hmmmzzzz

[fleamoffitt]

Crap! I think I forgot to get the brackets for the rear Bar when I ordered the other day. Are they absolutely necessary?

[emoze]

thanks for this - I have a 07 EX auto- coupe that is twitchy & tends to abrupt oversteer; I'm gonna order the SI kit tonite