ready to mod the suspension, some Qs first

[Piotrush]

So I'm at the point now where I'm thinking about upgrading the suspension - obvious choice is the HFP for ~$500. I've taken my SI to one auto-x event and the outside of my front tires are all chewed up. I'm assuming this is due to the non-performance oriented factory alignment. From what I understand to make the most of a new suspension I'd have to get ~2* of neg.camber all around, correct?

Before I go further, my SI is a daily driver first, weekend warrior second. I plan on taking it to some auto-xes and HPDEs but just for fun and education, not to be competitive or anything.

Here are some of my questions given the information:

1) What toe settings should I go with, or should I leave them alone? How much extra tire wear will there be on a set of RE 01Rs (or comparable) if I touch the toe + camber settings vs just camber?

2) Since I don't plan on doing a massive drop, do I need camber bolts or camber plates? Or can the desired settings be achieved using factory hardware?

3) What the hell is the difference between camber bolts and camber plates? I read the alignment thread and am still unclear.

4) Is it worth waiting (and paying extra) for a GC/Koni setup? I had it on my prelude and loved it - F400/R450 with the OTS Konis. Would this be a great improvement over the HFP kit for someone with my needs.

Thanks to anyone who gives me some input on this subject.

regards, Peter

[CanyonDriver]

1) i have .04* toe out front and 0 toe rear
2) If you want to alter the factory alignment you need camber bolts for the front and camber arms for the rear. I have SPC's full kit and I have no complaints.
3)camber plates are a component on coilovers. camber bolts are just bolts that you replace the factory lower strut bolts with. Take off your front tires and look at the 2 bolts at the bottom of the strut assembly. Those are the suckers you gotta remove and replace with camber bolts.
4) I would recommend HFP over Koni's if you will be doing a lot of daily driving. I would never want a $1000 set of shocks to blow from a pothole. I have HFP and it is a substantial improvement over factory suspension; especially with an alignment.

As for your 2* negative camber question. Id say thats a little much. I think most people would agree that -1.75 front and -1.25 would be a good alignment for autoX and daily driving.

[Sirbelch]

You can get camber plates from a company called K-Mac but they are more than 4 times the cost of some camber bolts.

As far as front camber is conserned, some autoxers run -3 or -4 (Highrev1 IIPC) in the front when they autox. Our front suspension do not gain any negative camber under compression. So all the static camber you can get (to a point) will help. Remember, since your camber will be adjustable, you can add more negative camber right before you go autoxing and take it back out again when you get home.

[Highrev1]

On the track I run upwards of -3 degrees, Autox I run whatever the class allows for... A Stock this year

[CanyonDriver]

Highrev: You should do a DIY on camber adjustment. pleeeeease

[Sirbelch]

I got a DIY on camber.

Loosen bolts
Adjust mount
Tighten bolts

[CanyonDriver]

thats the obvious part but i wana know how to get specific settings without stringing my car up or anything. camber gauge?

[Sirbelch]

Originally Posted by CanyonDriver

thats the obvious part but i wana know how to get specific settings without stringing my car up or anything. camber gauge?

hence the joke.

[Moose]

Originally Posted by Piotrush

So I'm at the point now where I'm thinking about upgrading the suspension - obvious choice is the HFP for ~$500. I've taken my SI to one auto-x event and the outside of my front tires are all chewed up. I'm assuming this is due to the non-performance oriented factory alignment. From what I understand to make the most of a new suspension I'd have to get ~2* of neg.camber all around, correct?

Before I go further, my SI is a daily driver first, weekend warrior second. I plan on taking it to some auto-xes and HPDEs but just for fun and education, not to be competitive or anything.

Here are some of my questions given the information:

1) What toe settings should I go with, or should I leave them alone? How much extra tire wear will there be on a set of RE 01Rs (or comparable) if I touch the toe + camber settings vs just camber?

2) Since I don't plan on doing a massive drop, do I need camber bolts or camber plates? Or can the desired settings be achieved using factory hardware?

3) What the hell is the difference between camber bolts and camber plates? I read the alignment thread and am still unclear.

4) Is it worth waiting (and paying extra) for a GC/Koni setup? I had it on my prelude and loved it - F400/R450 with the OTS Konis. Would this be a great improvement over the HFP kit for someone with my needs.

Thanks to anyone who gives me some input on this subject.

regards, Peter

There are three primary area's you need to concentrate on to create a good handeling car ....

One:
Tires will make the single biggest difference in your handleing potential ... it is all about grip, buy the widest stickiest tires, stuffed on the widest/lighest rims that will fit under the fenders that are within your budget. You have four very small patches of rubber keeping you on the steet/track ... make them as big and sticky as possible

Two:
Maximising grip and the contact patch, thru aligment settings

Three:
Managing Weight transfer, this is all about suspension setup (Spring rates, swaybars, shocks)



Negative Camber - As a car that is optimised mostly for street, where tire wear is a concern I would say that arround -2 (front) amd -1.5 (rear) will be a good starting point ...a decent comprimise between inside tire-wear when you are driving in a straight line, and outside tire-wear when you are cornering. The trick to running with negitive camber is to rotate you tires more frequently ... Front to back every oil-change, and flip on the rims (left to right) every other oil change. This will allow your tires to wear evenly. I did this on my track optimised sdaily driven EG where I ran -3 (front) -2(rear) of camber. I had VERY even tire wear when I rotated.

What REALLY wears tire is Excessive toe out or in ... combine this with big camber and you will EAT tires. Related to this, do NOT buy tires that have an Asymetric tread pattern ... this does not allow you to flip the tires on the rim ... you can only rotate back to front which severly limits your ability to even tire wear. On these cars, a asymetic tire is a real liability



To answer your question (above) directly ....

1)
Toe (front) - About a 1/16" a side (1/8" total) toe out is about the most you can get away with a daily driven car in my opinion

Toe (rear) Run zero toe for now ... if you were a serious auto-Xr then some toe out would be helpful.

2)
Negative camber up from REALLY helps both handleing AND tire wear in the corners. Use either the OE or Ingals Camber bolts to acheilve this.

3)
Camber bolts reaplace the lower bolts that attach the strut to the front steering knuckle. They are designed to "slip" and rotate the knuckle , in reference to the strut, increasing or decreasing camber.

A Camber plate, replaces the fixed OE top mount of the strut assembly. This adjustable top mount allows you to tilt the top of the strut in or out, thus adjusting camber.

It the rear, one of the Fixed OE control arms is replaced with an adjsutable model that alows you to adjust the "tilt" or camber of the rear suepnsion

4)
The GC Koni setup is a great setup, but definately more "track" then Street. You will see huge inprovement in handleing and predictability, but at a cost, ride comfort. So if this is primarily a "street" car then the HPF is probably the better choice.

Moose

[Highrev1]

Moose My top three things would be uhh...

1. Seat time

2. Seat time

3. Seat time

Obviously if your experienced enough then Moose as usual is too gosh darn smart.. Its a love hate relationship we have I love to hate you cause your smarter and more experienced than me, but we do learn so much from those guys + Imaginary Rep for Moose

Moose PM coming your way

[Moose]

Originally Posted by CanyonDriver

thats the obvious part but i wana know how to get specific settings without stringing my car up or anything. camber gauge?

You HAVE to string your car to measure and fix TOE ... A camber gauge is only good for camber. and as soon as you touch camber, your toe goes WAY OUT ... Tire trashing toe.

there is no fast/simple/easy way to fix or set toe ...

Moose

[Moose]

Originally Posted by Highrev1

Moose My top three things would be uhh...

1. Seat time

2. Seat time

3. Seat time

Obviously if your experienced enough then Moose as usual is too gosh darn smart.. Its a love hate relationship we have I love to hate you cause your smarter and more experienced than me, but we do learn so much from those guys + Imaginary Rep for Moose

Moose PM coming your way

HiRev .... Don't make me bring out the "finger"


If he was asking about going FASTER on the track I would say the above ....

But unlike you ... I read what is posted and answered his question ...


Moose

[Highrev1]

My point is is that all the mods in the world are a waste if they can't be utalized to the fullest by the driver

[Sirbelch]

Originally Posted by Highrev1

Moose My top three things would be uhh...

1. Seat time

2. Seat time

3. Seat time

I'm going the wrong way here. Suspension, Wheels/Tires, then seat time. As soon as the new suspenion comes in, its all the seat time I can effing handle. Oh well. Live and learn.

[Moose]

Originally Posted by Highrev1

My point is is that all the mods in the world are a waste if they can't be utalized to the fullest by the driver

I know and it is VERY VERY True ... I love watching an experienced driver in a stock XXXX car lay waste to some newbie with a modded car ... it is a painfull but valuble experience

I am just busting your balls ... payback is a bitch

I still WUV you HiRev

Moose

[Moose]

By shear coincidence today I picked up two sets of front Ingals aligment bolts, and rear camber kit.

I also placed and order for a set of 235-40-17 Toyo RA1's and am arranging to have the 235-40-17 Z212 Hankooks (Street setup) Mounted.

I practice what I preach ...

If it was not so FREEKING cold (-13 F) and snowy I would be outside installing the camber bits ... but it will be a month at least before that will happen


Moose

[Sirbelch]

Originally Posted by Moose

By shear coincidence today I picked up two sets of front Ingals aligment bolts, and rear camber kit.

I also placed and order for a set of 235-40-17 Toyo RA1's and had my 235-40-17 Z212 Hankooks (Street setup) Mounted.

I practice what I preach ...

If it was not so FREEKING cold (-13 F) and snowy I would be outside installing the camber bits ... but it will be a month at least before that will happen


Moose

Do they not have garages in Canada?

[Moose]

Originally Posted by Sirbelch

Do they not have garages in Canada?

Yes ... do you know how expensive it is to heat them in this winter waste-land :)

They aint nothing most satisfing lieing in a puddle of melting saltly slush while more of the same salty slush drips down your neck, as you attempt to tighten/loosen a bolt with fingers that have had no feeling for the past hour .... MMMM that is some kinda FUN !!!!



Moose

[Sirbelch]

Originally Posted by Moose

Yes ... do you know how expensive it is to heat them in this winter waste-land :)

They aint nothing most satisfing lieing in a puddle of melting saltly slush while more of the same salty slush drips down your neck, as you attempt to tighten/loosen a bolt with fingers that have had no feeling for the past hour .... MMMM that is some kinda FUN !!!!



Moose

Space heater? Insulation? Park it in the garage for 6 hours, turn on the heater, and then mop up all the melted snow and salt. I think thats a great Idea. Im just messin with you. I live in cali and I don't know shit about the cold. It was 65 and sunny today.

[OhondaU]

Some good advice here...

the OP said that he scuffed up the outside of his tire pretty bad. Do you mean the sidewall? or just a lot of wear on the outer shoulder? If you (or anyone else) want to go autocrossing on the stock tires (if you really have to) then it would be a good idea to bump the pressures up a bit. That will help you stay off the sidewall and improve recovery once you bomb the car into the corner with too much steering angle on it.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record...the manual recommends for "high speed driving" to raise the pressures on the stock Si to 35psi cold. If you drove the car to the event then your tires will already be warm, so add a few psi to that. I'd say 37-38psi would be a good start.

Other than that, Moose is right.