Question to Highrev and other heavyweight about suspension upgrades!

[HondaScott]

Hi All,

For those of you who do not know, my name is Scott and I have an 07 Civic Si. So far the only modification is two sets of camber bolts up front to bring the alignment to -2 degrees camber.

I have saved up some money, and gotten the modification bug, and want to upgrade my suspension. I will not upgrade just for the hell of it; I have to know I will accomplish some means by doing so.

First things first, this is my driving style:
-4 season driver (have good winter wheels and tires for Canadian winters)
-Spirited street driver
-Try to do between 1-4 open track days a year
-Plan to do 2-6 autocross events this year (mostly for fun, not too competitive)
-Drive the car on lots of LONG road trips

The first modification I have planned is rubber. I will probably get some sort of “ultra/extreme” performance tires from tire rack. Will probably mount them to the stock wheels to save money. Does anybody have any suggestions for a good tire/size? I do not want to have race only rubber for financial and inconvenience reasons.

My real question is what to do about suspension! I understand that it would be mostly for esthetics, but I have a hankering to lower the Si. The only thing that worries me is being too low for Canadian winters. I don’t want to plow the neighborhood for free. This means I would be considering a mild drop of between 1-1.5” or better yet, adjustable lowering. I have been very happy with the stock suspension, but I worry that with stiffer springs I will throw everything out of balance. My only complaint with stock suspension is that it takes sooo long to get set up entering a corner. I feel this is 99% due to my stock A/S rubber, but it may have something to do with springs/dampers. I also find the car understeers upon corner entry and oversteers (nicely) on exit.

Estimated budget (rubber included) $3000

Any help is appreciated. Sorry for the essay!
Scott

[Highrev1]

Well, your doing it right by getting a good set of tires I just got Re0750's fromt he tirerack for my TSX there a less aggresive performance oriented tire that will last pretty well. The Re50 Pole positions are on sale right now from tirerack and a nice performancy tire...But if you want a much more aggressive setup get the Re01R's but they will wear fairly fast. I would suggest a new set of wheels, as the aggresive pad compunds used for track days can "eat" and stain the stock wheels see the pics below they are stained in the second picture... $600 for wheels $600 for tires.. That leaves you with $1800 for suspension thats plenty! Then you have to decide what you wanna do for the suspension.. DD/track setup?

[Moose]

Here is my 2 cents ... Based on your fairly heavy track schedule ....

I do not reccomend the stock rims for track use for a couple of reasons
-Heavy (but strong)
-Narrow (7") - this really limits you to a 215 wide tire, as 225 starts getting pinched and minimises the contact patch advantage of the wider tire. I tend to run cheap (but good) tires on the street (Falken FK or Hankook K-104's) and spend the $ where it matters on Track rubber.

Tires: Because you are dealing with minmal camber up front you beat up the outer edge of the tires ... so you need to flip them on rims pretty often to even out the wear ... so asymetric tires are a bad choice. Pick a symetrical tire that can be flipped


I started as you are doing ... tracking the car with street tires, and it works on paper ... BUT from personal experience most street tires do NOT take track level heat really well and tend to wear quickly and can chunk ...combined with the 06 civics tendancy to eat the outer edge of the tire (not enough camber or camber gain)

I went thru a set of Toyo T1's in one summer doing just what you are planning ... So as Rev Suggested, take some of your Budget and buy a set of dedicated track rims (wide and light as the budget allows) and mount up a set of good DOT rated rubber that can be driven to and from the track ... I would suggest something along the lines of a Toyo RA1, Yokohama O32R, Hankook Z214 which are R-Compounds, that heat cycle well, have symetric tread pattern and wear well.
These tires are not an UBER r-compond but act more like a high performance street tire that work well on the track and the related heat. They are also easy to drive on (lots of warning before loosing traction) and safe for a novice driver.



Suspension:

I would wait a bit (you have time due to Canadian Winters) and see if Koni Comes out with Yellows and use them with OE or a quality Aftermarket lowering spring in the spring. Adjustable damping rocks.

Later You can mate the Koni's to a Set of GC sleeves if the bug hit hard ... this sort of adjustable damping / linear rate spring setup will work really well.

The only down side to coil-overs to a Canadian, is that the long cold winters + salt = seized / rusted coil-overs ... I used to swap my C/O in and out every october and april.

If Koni does not come thru then there are other options like the HPF kit which lowers about 1/2- 3/4" and has more aggresive spring rates and damping ...this can be had for about $650 US + shipping of go one step further to the Mugen Sport or Mugen Sport Type R package ... which goes for $1100 + shiping ...these are a shock/spring combo with matched damping

The HPF and Nugen Sport kits combined with the Progess 22mm rear sway-bar will be a good comprise between street and track.


So ..Start with the important stuff - Tires / rims ...and progress from there.


Moose

[aki]

I've yet to ride in an Si equipped with HFP, but Mugen sports suspension (non-CTR) is great for daily driving and the occassional romp on a track. Better rotation than stock, a tad more harsh--but honestly, my RE070 tires are what's making my ride a lot more harsh. Only downside is it's dang expensive, and I'm not sure whether the difference is worth getting over HFP.

My upgrade idea for $3000 would be:
Light 17x8 wheels (Enkei RPF01s): $1000
Kumho SP1s: $600 (ideally RE01Rs but they're pricier and wear faster)
HFP suspension: $600
BE 21mm sway: $150
Hawk HPS pads: $100

[bluesunit]

I'd suggest (like the others) getting a set of race wheels.

I have, on my stock wheels, a set of shitty Kumho all-seasons (ASXs, $70) for regular road driving. They a great for the street as they have a decent ride and make your car feel faster . . . you can slip the tires through the first three gears. Handling is OK (good enough to be safe).

Falken Azenis are nice and sticky. If you keep them cool (water spray them between runs . . . this goes for most street tires) they do a decent job of maintaining their handling characteristics. They will get "greasy" when they get too hot. You can get them on sale for about $100 a tire pretty reliably.

RE01Rs are the tire flavor of the week for autocrossing in ST-classes. They have the downfall of being both asymmetrical and directional, meaning that they cannot be flipped and can only be rotated front to rear.

Kumho is coming out with a 140 treadwear tire this spring . . . I'm very interested in checking this out.

HFP is a decent setup. I have it and love it, but I'm waiting for Koni to come through.

This is all from an autocross point of view. I've only tracked her once and it scared the shit out of me (sideways at 70 ).

Not really, but I prefer autocross where I can drive at 11/10th and have a slimmer chance of screwing things up.

[Solo2EG]

I gotta tell you Scott, you're already well on your way to success because you know not to go too low (your reasoning is because of winter) but it will F up the handling anyway. Not to mention the fact that you knew to come here and ask the experts and not just believe some of the (other) crap you read on the net. I've known Moose personally for years and he speaks the truth and though I've only e-met Highrev, he seems to have his head screwed on straight too...

I'll second (third or fourth I guess) the suggestion of a dedicated set of track wheels. If you really get into the sport you'll wear through streets sooooo fast (not to mention that R compounds are usually cheaper than a premium street and you really won't be happy with the performance of a street tire in comparison with the R at the track), plus, once you get into the sport a little more, I've found that you can usually buy used tires from the uber-competitive guys that absolutely have to have new rubber all the time (as long as you don't NEED to be at the top of the time sheets)

Far as the suspension is concerned, again I completely agree with Moose... wait until spring to see if Koni (finally) gets those damned dampers done (I absolutely love mine!!!) and if not maybe think about the HFP (it is expensive in Canada though, get it from someone on here) or try running a season stock and keep waiting for the Koni (it has to be soon...) There's always a rear swaybar too...

[Highrev1]

As MOOSE suggested, the RA1's are a great tire!! Thats all I ran my first 2 years of learing...I am so stuck in the head about not running an R compund for a newer driver that I am pig headed and suggest a street tire when these are a perfect long lasting, pretty darn sticky tire..



As for wheels there are LOTS of less expensive options that are good quality and are wide and light...Rota's are a good choice, I like the TeamDynamics wheels for addition caliper clearance, any of the pretty "tuner" wheels are needed and if you spend alot of them you will be upset if you ever nick them and stuff so I say stay away from them

As the other guys said wait until your spring time to get a suspension, who knows there may be a less expensive single adjustable koni coilover out by then... That have slotted mounting holes for additional camber, choises for your spring rates, shortend shocks, and are priced in the 1G range..

[Solo2EG]

+1 for the Team Dynamics, that's where you go for a good track wheel!

I ran RA1's forever as well (and still do) I only used the uber Kumho V710 when I was very (very very) competitive in autocross and every hundredth mattered. Now I have a mortgage and every dollar matters... The RA1 is a great tire, not to mention being able to drive on it to events (or all the way to and from a track school in Montreal...)


Plus the V710 was an auto-x tire and would never hold up to sustained track abuse like the RA1 does on our 8th gen Touring cars...

[Highrev1]

I ran the V710's last year on the FG for Autox and they were a great tire, long lasting and very sticky, then I moved on to a staggered Hoosier setup and they didn't last quite as long..I am abusive on tires But the hoosiers were a little faster.

I also took the FG out to LimeRockPark on the V710's and the grip on them is insane, basically a stock SI with just R-Compunds and other cars were not too happy with me passing them But as moose and others have said there not as forgiving, start with a more forgiving tire without a doubt.....I did end up going off once

[Moose]

Team Dynamic's make a great light / strong rim for the Money
Here are some other Strong / light rim options ... that will not brake the bank

-Enkei RPF1 (as Per Aki) as well as the RCT / NT01 / RP01
-Kosei K1 / K1-TS
-Motegi Trac Lites
-OZ Ultralegga's
-Rota - Use the "bigger spoke styles" like the Slipstreams
-Gram Lights

The Nice thing about track rims is they do not need to look pretty ... just straight - so Used is a VERY good option ... Most of my collection of track rims over the years was used ...and buying used rims in winter is AWESOME ...it is a buyers market ... you can get some deals !!!!


Moose
-

[Sirbelch]

Solo, don't you have to run Toyo's on your touring car? I thought that they all run a spec tire.

I have Motegi Traclites and love them. Light, forged aluminum but a little pricey at 1152 for a set of 17x8 when compaired to Revy's quote of 600 for a set of tires.

[Highrev1]

Originally Posted by Sirbelch

I have Motegi Traclites and love them. Light, forged aluminum but a little pricey at 1152 for a set of 17x8 when compaired to Revy's quote of 600 for a set of tires.

Are you talking about tires or wheels

$150.00 a wheel means $600 for the set, I am not the best in math so I used a calculator and it is $600 for all 4 ...You can get some great wheels for around $150 bucks each or tires for $150 each...

[Solo2EG]

Yup, we're a spec series just like world Challenge, who just this week officially announced the switch from the RA1 to the R888 for next season SCCA Pro Racing SPEED World Challenge, Vilven, the official supplier has a pretty huge sale on shaved and full tread RA1's right now and luckily the WC size (235-40-17) is perfect for a Civic. Toronto Tirecraft in Canada is doing the same...

[Highrev1]

The new tires are cooler looking

[Solo2EG]

We'll see how they are in the rain... not all the sipes go all the way to the outer shoulder of the tire...

but you're right, they do look cooler, and I'd expect a lot less tread squirm at full depth!

[Sirbelch]

Originally Posted by Highrev1

Are you talking about tires or wheels

$150.00 a wheel means $600 for the set, I am not the best in math so I used a calculator and it is $600 for all 4 ...You can get some great wheels for around $150 bucks each or tires for $150 each...

I got confused. Tracklites are 288 a set at the tire rack.


Solo, you are just going to have to hope there is no rain this year. It rained at 2 events last year right?

[Highrev1]

No tread blocks chunking off either on the new ones...I bet they do fine in the rain as long as you softent he car enough

[Solo2EG]

Originally Posted by Highrev1

No tread blocks chunking off either on the new ones...I bet they do fine in the rain as long as you soften he car enough

We don't have to worry about any tread blocks, we get 'em shaved so that there's only the 4 circumferential grooves, nothing across the tread.

[Highrev1]

ME 2 LOL....I would just wear them to the cord when I didn't realize how important tires acutally were And please don't ask about the alignment settings from the tread wear on those tires I was younger dumber and thought I knew everything Live and you learn as you get older

[Solo2EG]

All of those still have more tread on them than when we buy them...



Poor Honda Scott... what have we done to his original thread?!?