Brake options

[Moose]

Originally Posted by Paco1120

hey Moose, great job on putting this info together.
i am in need of replacing my breaks and reading this gave a me a good idea of what i need to purchase, but wanted to make sure if its right before i go off and get it
i want to go with the axxis ULT in the front and rear and will be changing the brake fluid to Motul rbf600, can someone tell me if i will need to resurface the rotors or if new rotors will be needed. i dont do any autox, just looking for a good break upgrade. with that said would it be better for me to just buy the s2000 pads?? will the Axxix be overkill if i dont autox??
please pardon the dumb questions.. this will be the first time i do my own breaks and i'm kinda nervous.. haha

The Axis/PBR Ultimates are a good upgrade and very streetable.

Rotors, I generally reccomend that rotors be at the very least resurfaced, any iregularities in the surface (grooves etc) in the rotor will "cut" the new pads and wear them unnessarillly ... plus you will have trouble bedding in your new street pads over the existing pad material.

You also should check how much rotor (thickness) is left and what the run-out is. If it is close to OE limits, they have to be replaced.

If the rotors still have enough meat and are not grooved ...you can clean them up / knock down the high spots with a random orbital sander and some 100 grit sandpaper ...


IT may be easier / faster/cheaper/safer to pickup some new rotors at the same time ... Being a street car a set of AutoZone or similar OE replacement rotor will work well and not cost to much.

FYI - Pickup a copy of the Honda Helms manual ... it is chock full of critical info such as torque settings etc.

When you have the calipers off ... lube up the sliders with high temp brake grease ... it is something that should be done regularily ...particularily the rear calipers. I personaly swear by the PBR brake lube/grease.


If you are doing the rotors ...pick up a impact driver with the philips bit ... you will need it to remove the two rotor retaining bolts. If not you will probably have to drill out the retainig bolts ..they strip just looking at them.

You will also probably need a couple of extra 12mm? bolts to help "push" the rotor off the hub.



Moose

[cornerstrike]

Im no brake expert and this thread has provided a lot of solid information. At the same time Im a little confused.
It seems there are more negatives then positives in regard to drilled/slotted rotors and BBKs in general. If this is the case, and this is where the confusion starts, why do so many OEM vehicles, which are intended to be daily driven and have similar weight to our Civics, come from the factory with drilled rotors in huge dimensions?
I would think that a brake system similar to our Civic's would be sufficient, if indeed a bigger brake set up with drilled rotors would produce inferior daily driven performance, not taking the front and rear brake bias in consideration.
Like I said, Im no expert, but this thread has just confused the hell out of me. Why the hell would the aftermarket develop BBKs for our cars, knowing that most of us would daily drive them anyway?

[Paco1120]

Originally Posted by Moose

The Axis/PBR Ultimates are a good upgrade and very streetable.

Rotors, I generally reccomend that rotors be at the very least resurfaced, any iregularities in the surface (grooves etc) in the rotor will "cut" the new pads and wear them unnessarillly ... plus you will have trouble bedding in your new street pads over the existing pad material.

You also should check how much rotor (thickness) is left and what the run-out is. If it is close to OE limits, they have to be replaced.

If the rotors still have enough meat and are not grooved ...you can clean them up / knock down the high spots with a random orbital sander and some 100 grit sandpaper ...


IT may be easier / faster/cheaper/safer to pickup some new rotors at the same time ... Being a street car a set of AutoZone or similar OE replacement rotor will work well and not cost to much.

FYI - Pickup a copy of the Honda Helms manual ... it is chock full of critical info such as torque settings etc.

When you have the calipers off ... lube up the sliders with high temp brake grease ... it is something that should be done regularily ...particularily the rear calipers. I personaly swear by the PBR brake lube/grease.


If you are doing the rotors ...pick up a impact driver with the philips bit ... you will need it to remove the two rotor retaining bolts. If not you will probably have to drill out the retainig bolts ..they strip just looking at them.

You will also probably need a couple of extra 12mm? bolts to help "push" the rotor off the hub.



Moose

thanks again Moose. i will probably be installing my new breaks this weekend. i will be going with the Axis, motul, and i will resurface my rotors. i will try to find the pbr rubber grease, do you think autozone carries it? and where can i get the 12 mm bolts from? dealer? and is there an impact driver you would recommend? lol, what a pain in the azz i am huhh!!
i also tried searching for a diy brake install, i found a couple that will help me out but none of them had actual pictures..is there one with pics? i trippen..
am i making this harder than it accually is?? i sound like a chick!!!


thanks

[Moose]

Originally Posted by Paco1120

thanks again Moose. i will probably be installing my new breaks this weekend. i will be going with the Axis, motul, and i will resurface my rotors. i will try to find the pbr rubber grease, do you think autozone carries it? and where can i get the 12 mm bolts from? dealer? and is there an impact driver you would recommend? lol, what a pain in the azz i am huhh!!
i also tried searching for a diy brake install, i found a couple that will help me out but none of them had actual pictures..is there one with pics? i trippen..
am i making this harder than it accually is?? i sound like a chick!!!


thanks

Any good high temp "brake specfic" grease will work ... I just really like the PBR stuff

Impact Driver: Sears


Craftsman Impact Driver - Model 47641 at Sears.com

To remove Rotor,

Using impact driver above loosen and then remove the two philps head retaining bolts


Sorry I said 12mm above (it is a 12mm head) it is a 8mm x 1.25(thread pitch) bolt ...which you should be able to pick up anywhere that stocks metric bolts.




As for proper instructions ... If you are going to be working on your car regularily I HIGHLY reccoemnd that you buy a copy of the Helms Service manual ... BUT for this weekend you can probabaly download a PDF copy of a RSX shop manual ... The TypeS the front and rear rotors and calipers are essentially the same ... therefore the process and torque settings should be the same as well.


Brakes are pretty easy ...You just have to take your time and make sure you do it right (Use a shop manual) ... remember it is your safety we are talking about here.

Moose

[Moose]

Originally Posted by cornerstrike

Im no brake expert and this thread has provided a lot of solid information. At the same time Im a little confused.
It seems there are more negatives then positives in regard to drilled/slotted rotors and BBKs in general. If this is the case, and this is where the confusion starts, why do so many OEM vehicles, which are intended to be daily driven and have similar weight to our Civics, come from the factory with drilled rotors in huge dimensions?
I would think that a brake system similar to our Civic's would be sufficient, if indeed a bigger brake set up with drilled rotors would produce inferior daily driven performance, not taking the front and rear brake bias in consideration.
Like I said, Im no expert, but this thread has just confused the hell out of me. Why the hell would the aftermarket develop BBKs for our cars, knowing that most of us would daily drive them anyway?

This is my theory ....

It is all about perception of what is better, and marketing a concept of high performance ... when you hear that the new "XXX" car come stock with Brembo's and x-drilled rotors .... you think WOW !!! it must stop really well ... THAT is A PERFORMANCE CAR !

Reality does NOT matter ... it is all about perception.


If look arround most people "really" want a BBK to "fill out the rims" and because it looks cool ...plus the bragging rights that they have "XXX" BBK. Only a small persentage of BBK buyers do so purely for the performance advantages.

Related to this ... Over the past 5-6 years we have seen a large increase in OE rim sizes ... 10+ years ago the average rim size was 14-15", 5-6 years ago 15-16" rims were the norm ...now 17-18 are very common. When you have big rims you "need" big rotors to "fill" in the rims so that it looks right. You have probably seen a EG civic rolling on OE brakes (9.5") with 17" rims .. it looks kinda silly (The small brakes look lost inside the rims)

The Aftermarket brake comapnies are just filling the demand for these parts ... If people will buy them, they will sell them ... the reason for buying does not matter to them.

Related to this, Cars have been getting heavier and heavier ... the Base civic in 1992 weighs about 2100# ..Now it is close to 2700# ...this requires EITHER more aggessive pads, or bigger brakes to dissapate heat generated when stopping a MUCH heavier car. Since Manufactures and most consumers do not like aggressive brakes, they increase the size of the brakes ..and they fil out the biggger rims ...making them look better.


Moose

[Paco1120]

Originally Posted by Moose

... remember it is your safety we are talking about here.

Moose

maybe i should just have someone do it for me...ha-ha
naw i'm going to try it,i've asked my buddy to give me a hand.. he's done brakes on these types of cars so everything should be ok. if not i can fly you down here from Canada to hook it up for me..

thanks Moose

[cornerstrike]

Moose,

I appreciate the reply. I can understand your theory about filling in those rims with bigger brakes, because small brakes with large rims look weird. But it cant be always the case. Correct me if Im wrong, but the DC2 Type R debuted as a 96 model with 15 inch wheels. In 98 Honda change the wheels to 16 inches and with it increase the size of the brakes as well. I doubt Honda make this brake change for looks only. Also, the rest pretty much stayed the same, with minor touches done to some suspension components and the final drive ratio, but nothing that would add enough weight that they would need bigger brakes. This is just my thought.

I myself am planning to start tracking my Si this summer. I was considering a BBK myself, both for more consistent braking(since brake fading seems to be a weak point of the Si) and looks, but after reading this thread Im too worried to screw up the brake bias of the car. I guess I will go a different and less expensive route. We shall see. Thanks again.

[Sirbelch]

Here is a BBK kit that was designed to work with the rear brakes.

FS Wilwood BBK..

[Moose]

Originally Posted by cornerstrike

Moose,

I appreciate the reply. I can understand your theory about filling in those rims with bigger brakes, because small brakes with large rims look weird. But it cant be always the case. Correct me if Im wrong, but the DC2 Type R debuted as a 96 model with 15 inch wheels. In 98 Honda change the wheels to 16 inches and with it increase the size of the brakes as well. I doubt Honda make this brake change for looks only. Also, the rest pretty much stayed the same, with minor touches done to some suspension components and the final drive ratio, but nothing that would add enough weight that they would need bigger brakes. This is just my thought.

I myself am planning to start tracking my Si this summer. I was considering a BBK myself, both for more consistent braking(since brake fading seems to be a weak point of the Si) and looks, but after reading this thread Im too worried to screw up the brake bias of the car. I guess I will go a different and less expensive route. We shall see. Thanks again.

Most of the USDM DC2 ITRs came with 15" rims (I think 16" were an option on the later ones) ... the JDM ITR'S came with 16" rims mostly


Brakes on the DC2 ITR were 11"F and 10" rear for the entire production run and could run 15" rims. The regular DC2's had 10.2" f and ~9.5" rear rotors.

The only variation in brakes for the DC2 ITR's was the 96 JDM ITR which was a 4x114.3 bolt pattern (I "think" they were also 11" front rotors ...but could have been 10.2") ... and that changed to 5x114.3 bolt pattern for 97 on.

---------------------

Brake Fade is more a function of the Brake pads and fluid than the rotor / caliper. I would start with a good set of pads and fluid first ... it is way cheaper ... and IF that does not work out for you ... then look at a quaility BBK ... Keep in mind that not only do you have to pay for a BBK, but also potentially for more rims / tires that will clear the calipers.

If you are heavy into lapping then a dedicated set of rotors and good race pads is the way to go ... this way you have a streetable setup, and a setup that is good for the track.

It is dead easy to swap rotors and pads at the track ... 1/2 hour and you are done. I used to do it all the time.

Moose

[cornerstrike]

Originally Posted by Moose

Most of the USDM DC2 ITRs came with 15" rims (I think 16" were an option on the later ones) ... the JDM ITR'S came with 16" rims mostly


Brakes on the DC2 ITR were 11"F and 10" rear for the entire production run and could run 15" rims. The regular DC2's had 10.2" f and ~9.5" rear rotors.

The only variation in brakes for the DC2 ITR's was the 96 JDM ITR which was a 4x114.3 bolt pattern (I "think" they were also 11" front rotors ...but could have been 10.2") ... and that changed to 5x114.3 bolt pattern for 97 on.

---------------------

Brake Fade is more a function of the Brake pads and fluid than the rotor / caliper. I would start with a good set of pads and fluid first ... it is way cheaper ... and IF that does not work out for you ... then look at a quaility BBK ... Keep in mind that not only do you have to pay for a BBK, but also potentially for more rims / tires that will clear the calipers.

If you are heavy into lapping then a dedicated set of rotors and good race pads is the way to go ... this way you have a streetable setup, and a setup that is good for the track.

It is dead easy to swap rotors and pads at the track ... 1/2 hour and you are done. I used to do it all the time.

Moose

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, i was referring to the JDM DC2 previously. But Im pretty sure that the 98 model had an increase in brake size. In any case, I might just start with some pads and fluid first and see how that works. Just waiting for them to finally open the road course here. Thanks again.

[NJcivic06]

Hey Moose,

Quick question,
Am i going to need a torque wrench if I'm just changing the rotors and pads? A few years ago i changed the rotors and pads on my Altima and i never used a torque wrench, however I've seen it mentioned on a few websites.

Thanks

[Moose]

Originally Posted by NJcivic06

Hey Moose,

Quick question,
Am i going to need a torque wrench if I'm just changing the rotors and pads? A few years ago i changed the rotors and pads on my Altima and i never used a torque wrench, however I've seen it mentioned on a few websites.

Thanks

It is always a good idea / practice to torque to spec ... Honda prints torque specs on ALL their fasteners for a reason.

Moose

[Paco1120]

Hey Moose, you'll be glad to know that the brake install went well. changed the Pads to Axxis ULT, Motul RBF, and lubed and lubed and lubed...does lubbing normally take a while??
i was being extra careful to not get any one the side of the pads and rotors... haha
overall a really good experience, and saving on the dealer installation cost is also great!!! they wanted like 450.00...

as for the new brakes, feels much better!!! i dont think ill be going back to regular honda pads ever again..
these axxis have much more breaking power, better pedal feel, no noises yet but they are much dustier than OEM pads, but its all good.... ill just clean them more often..no biggie

thanks again Moose

[cornerstrike]

Originally Posted by Sirbelch

Here is a BBK kit that was designed to work with the rear brakes.

FS Wilwood BBK..

just curious, but how is it that this BBK is designed to work with the stock rear brakes, when other BBKs are not? Its just kind of strange that only one company would design a kit that does not interfere with the brake bias, instead of everyone designing their kits like that.

[mattsbobo]

Originally Posted by cornerstrike

just curious, but how is it that this BBK is designed to work with the stock rear brakes, when other BBKs are not? Its just kind of strange that only one company would design a kit that does not interfere with the brake bias, instead of everyone designing their kits like that.

From what I understand, it's not designed to work with the rears.

[Moose]

Originally Posted by Paco1120

Hey Moose, you'll be glad to know that the brake install went well. changed the Pads to Axxis ULT, Motul RBF, and lubed and lubed and lubed...does lubbing normally take a while??
i was being extra careful to not get any one the side of the pads and rotors... haha
overall a really good experience, and saving on the dealer installation cost is also great!!! they wanted like 450.00...

as for the new brakes, feels much better!!! i dont think ill be going back to regular honda pads ever again..
these axxis have much more breaking power, better pedal feel, no noises yet but they are much dustier than OEM pads, but its all good.... ill just clean them more often..no biggie

thanks again Moose

Great ... I am glad things went well and you are happy with the results

Originally Posted by cornerstrike

just curious, but how is it that this BBK is designed to work with the stock rear brakes, when other BBKs are not? Its just kind of strange that only one company would design a kit that does not interfere with the brake bias, instead of everyone designing their kits like that.

There is NO aftermarket Rear BBK that will work well with most cars for a couple of reasons ... there is no rear aftermarket multi-piston caliper that I am aware of that has provisions for a e-Brake / parking brake. It just cannot be easily done. This is a rather large safety issue, that can get your car pulled off the road by the POPO

The brake bias is the other issue. They have to be properly designed to work with the system as a whole, most are not ...they are just off the shelf components with the appropriate adaptor brackets

Related to this ... there is NO need to upgrade the rear cailpers/rotors for any street driven car, pads are all you will ever need. The rear brakes do SO little of the overall braking that they are not even close to be over-streesed.

On one of the race cars I am working on currently ... a heavy pig at ~2600 #'s goes thru front brake components very quickly, while the rear's have not been changed (nor do they need to be - 75% of the pad and rotor is left) in over three years of track abuse.


Moose

[mattsbobo]

Moose, didn't you say the best BBK (as far as brake bias was concerned) was the Rotora 4piston mini caliper?

[Moose]

Originally Posted by mattsbobo

Moose, didn't you say the best BBK (as far as brake bias was concerned) was the Rotora 4piston mini caliper?

Based on some initial calculations it "Appears" that the Rotora Mini Caliper upgrade will be close in performance to OE (F/R bias) ... I have not taken a closer look as I am not planning to do this upgrade as of yet.


Moose

[mattsbobo]

Moose, I'm sure you're not a smoker, but you could really use these:

Autoart ashtray (top half of caliper comes off so you can store your smoking supplies). Smaller rotor ashtry, and rotor coasters with metal caliper holder were part of a Camel cigarette promotion




Also, the Autoart ashtry is a 2 piece, vented rotor