Oh hay, understeer!

[zenith931]

I took a different way home from work than usual and was merging from a road onto a freeway. There were no signs around telling me it was a cloverleaf (or to slow down!) until I was in the thick of it all.

I don't usually drive my cars to the limit often only because I don't trust my abilities fully to recover and messing up on most public roads can get you into some nasty accidents/scrapes.

I went from 65mph to 60, then "oh, shit, this is a cloverleaf!"

"Hey, my car isn't turning as much as it was 2 seconds ago... hello understeer! Hey a wall!!!"

I dabbed the brakes and the nose tucked back in, avoiding the wall by a few inches... but that was an interesting experience!

So... what things can I do to reduce understeer on my car? I have some summer tires and I have yet to put my rear sway bar on. Anything else?

[Mitch]

When you were understeering, were you under throttle, coasting, or already braking? Was the turn uniform or decreasing radius?

The short answer is lowering your front ride height a little bit. The long answer is actually in the form of a nifty flowchart*!

*These are for a BMW M Coupe, which is RWD, but some of the basic principles remain the same.



And oversteer to match

[Mikey6p]

Rear sway bar helps, especially on the base models....So does getting rid of the stock tires.

[Izzy]

I really dig that tree! Kudos.

[zenith931]

Yeah! That tree is the shit! I'm saving it.

It was mid-turn and under throttle, I think. That or coasting. I don't remember! But it was not under braking b/c I braked a little to get the nose to tuck back in.

So reduce the ride height with coilovers or a suspension kit, etc?

[Izzy]

Put that sway bar in first, take that same corner, see if it makes a difference (it should). If it's still too understeery, get HFP suspension/suspension kit.

You change things one at a time, so you can adjust it and tailor it. That way, the effect will be more beneficial to you.

[zenith931]

Originally Posted by Izzy

Put that sway bar in first, take that same corner, see if it makes a difference (it should). If it's still too understeery, get HFP suspension/suspension kit.

You change things one at a time, so you can adjust it and tailor it. That way, the effect will be more beneficial to you.

Oh! I will! I have the sway bar in a box waiting to be put on this weekend. I just eyeball the HFP kit...

[Mitch]

Originally Posted by zenith931

Yeah! That tree is the shit! I'm saving it.

It was mid-turn and under throttle, I think. That or coasting. I don't remember! But it was not under braking b/c I braked a little to get the nose to tuck back in.

So reduce the ride height with coilovers or a suspension kit, etc?

These cars are really rotation friendly. If you were under throttle, depending on the gear, then just lifting might have transferred enough weight to the front to grab some traction.

A good modification for any car is Koni Single or Dual Adjustable (SA or DA) shocks, although I don't think Koni has released an official set for this car yet. It makes sorting these things out easier. I think that since you were able to correct it with a simple weight transfer (by applying the brakes), your understeering scenario is correctable by simply being more aware of your traction circle.

[Highrev1]

Originally Posted by zenith931

Yeah! That tree is the shit! I'm saving it.

It was mid-turn and under throttle, I think. That or coasting. I don't remember! But it was not under braking b/c I braked a little to get the nose to tuck back in.

NO parts for your car is needed, nothing is wrong with the car its the driver :) Coasting no-no, braking mid turn no-no, not looking ahead no-no :)

Understeer coming in to a turn you entered the turn too hot. Brake more before you enter the turn and more in a straight line, Mid turn braking is not a suggested techinque unless you are skilled in LFB. Jerking or cranking on the wheel the car can't compensate and can cause unwanted understeer. This is driver error and probably the underdampening of the stock dampers. "Dampers influence transitional cornering, so understeer entering and exiting corneres can be tweaked with damper valving."

Mid turn understeer can be helped with a more aggressive alignment.

Since your totally stock I say get some good quality dampers once they come out. WHY dampers cause sway bars are band-aid's They just kinda cover up the real problem

WIth all that said an even better solution to all of this would have been to LOOK AHEAD, reduce your entry speed and utalize what really makes you fast and that is exit speed..Hands follow eyes... :)

[zenith931]

Originally Posted by Highrev1

NO parts for your car is needed, nothing is wrong with the car its the driver :) Coasting no-no, braking mid turn no-no, not looking ahead no-no :)

Understeer coming in to a turn you entered the turn too hot. Brake more before you enter the turn and more in a straight line, Mid turn braking is not a suggested techinque unless you are skilled in LFB. Jerking or cranking on the wheel the car can't compensate and can cause unwanted understeer. This is driver error and probably the underdampening of the stock dampers. "Dampers influence transitional cornering, so understeer entering and exiting corneres can be tweaked with damper valving."

Mid turn understeer can be helped with a more aggressive alignment.

Since your totally stock I say get some good quality dampers once they come out. WHY dampers cause sway bars are band-aid's They just kinda cover up the real problem

WIth all that said an even better solution to all of this would have been to LOOK AHEAD, reduce your entry speed and utalize what really makes you fast and that is exit speed..Hands follow eyes... :)

Hehe, thanks for the pointers. But the whole reason this happened was because it was a blind turn that I'd never been on before. It was an on-ramp that tilted down a little as it cloverleafed. Since it went down, there were walls on either side so I couldn't look ahead and see what the turn was like. I thought it was just a simple on ramp that curved a little and didn't turn into a cloverleaf -- otherwise I would have been going a lot slower.

And I know not to brake mid-turn, being already towards the limits of adhesion with the understeer, braking would've ruined it more but thankfully it kicked the nose back in instead of me losing it altogether.

Thanks for the pointers and the advice, though! I want to get into auto-x someday and this helps -- at least on most auto-x courses there aren't walls forming blind turns!

[Mitch]

Originally Posted by zenith931

Thanks for the pointers and the advice, though! I want to get into auto-x someday and this helps -- at least on most auto-x courses there aren't walls forming blind turns!

It would take one twisted and/or inebriated safety steward to let that one get by

[zenith931]

Originally Posted by Mitch

It would take one twisted and/or inebriated safety steward to let that one get by

Would be cool as hell to watch, though!

[lightlypurified]

i also got rid of my stock tires i went with good year respond edge its a cornering tire anyways it reduced under steer a lot and the car isnt shaky as much suppodily it has carbon fiber rienforced wall. I also ahve a rear lower tie bar couldnt ask for more to making a good cornering car.

[King Bob]

be very careful in changing your suspension and take the time to get to know the car after each addition. IMO the best attribute a suspension can have is predictability

[Sirbelch]

When your ass is in trouble in a FWD car in mid corner there are a couple things you can do, depending on the situation. If you a pushing a little and are on the gas, a slight lift of of the throttle will transfer weight to the front of the car causing the rear end to get light and rotate which eliminates the push. If you are pushing really bad and need to save your ass, pressing the brake will do the weight transfer to the front a lot quicker and cause a lot more rotation but, it can do it so quick that you can't catch the rotation which causes the rotation to turn to oversteer and you will end up spinning (I learned that one the hard way, almost rolled my car.) Now with over steer, just ease into the gas and that should straigten it up enough to save your butt, or cause a fun four wheel drift that you get to hold with a little opposite lock (as long as there are no walls to hit or cliffs to fall off). Of course there is a point of no return in both situations and you need to start praying at that point.

[Sirbelch]

Originally Posted by King Bob

be very careful in changing your suspension and take the time to get to know the car after each addition. IMO the best attribute a suspension can have is predictability

True that. A predictable suspension is one that allows you to anticipate trouble BEFORE it happens which mean you can do a small correction to counter the touble instead of a hail marry correction.

[Jardiniboy]

The 2 most important things that will improve your car the most is

1. The driver
2. Better tires

[Kurt]

Highrev is a quality poster.

I took a 40mph offramp at about 70 last night and the car stuck well. I know the ramp, so I entered at the right angle and powered through the turn.. it was beautiful! I could have gone about 15mph faster if I wanted.. but that'd be speeding

[bluesunit]

God this post reminds me how much I need to spend an entire day on the skid pad leaving how to drive through under and oversteer before I get my ass in trouble on the street.

[Agnt004]

Ours cars have a LSD. If you would have given the car some gas your car might have pulled you in the right direction (assuming you weren't going too fast), but 60 on a cloverleaf can be done if it isn't too tight of a turn (I can't say for sure in your situation because I was not there). When I first got my car I seriously underestimated how good our car handles. If you accelerate when making a turn, you turn much better than any other non LSD equipped front wheel drive. If the tires aren't squealing, you can usually go faster.

Edit: My mistake, didn't realize it was an EX. Still good info to know though.