springs bad?

[futhermucker]

hey im not really very knowledgable on the topic of suspension, but i heard that if one gets performance springs without upgrading the struts etc, the struts and/or other parts may brake due to the different springs

does anyone know wat im talking about?

thankss thanks

[BATANG CITY JAIL]

the spring will stop all of that??

[Whispaz]

everything will just wear out faster.... not necessarily fast

[JeShUa]

The springs carry load lower thus putting more on the struts causing them to go out quicker.

[futhermucker]

ah... well thats just a bad deal all together then eh? minus well just save up and get coilovers lol

[Yodums]

Taken from the suspension bible:

SHOCKS, SPRINGS, COILOVERS!!!

Don’t run the OEM dampers with any lowering springs, Progressive rate springs don’t have a definitive spring rate because as their compressed their rate will increase, although they will be more comfortable than a linear rate spring, which rate will always stay constant.

“For Street use, It really makes very little difference what suspension you buy. If you are looking for a soft ride, pick one with a low spring rate. Dampers, do make a difference here. However ride quality is mostly influenced by Mid to high shaft speed valving (mostly bump). And really good single adjustable dampers, ones that allow you to tweak your cars handling the best, Should only adjust low speed rebound.

And this is why what damper you choose for street use doesnt really matter... Because most if not all of these "coilover" companys run Single adjustible dampers that adjust both bump and rebound with the same knob, which is silly for any sort of tuning for handling. AND the dampers the do run adjust mostly in the Mid speed valving range, limiting their usefull ness for any thing other then tweaking your ride quality.”

“Sure “pre-built” coilovers are easier. They are very convient, the car handles better than stock but not as well as it could. With a bit of luck someone else has “tuned” the coilover to your car. Will it be tuned specifically for you, no. They are tuned for a wide variety of customers with many different wants out of a suspension kit. Most of which are street drivers.

If you decide to order individual suspension parts then you can choose exactly what you want for your car, the use of the vechile, and your own driving style. Can a “pre-built” coilover compete with a separate spring shock combination, maybe/maybe not.

If you are only driving you car on the street and you will never see the track or any type of competition then a “pre-built” coilover is probably fine for you. If you want the absolute best out of your car and can take the car there then I would say stay away from most of the “pre-built” coilover kits. Either way it won’t matter if this is a street car you will never get the max out of your suspension on the street, and chances are your car isn’t properly prepared anyway, why is this, you don’t know what adds that last 10th of a second unless your timed.”.

Why am I in such dislike of any of the “pre-built coilovers? Dampers and Valving!!!!

“With all of the items that come with your coilovers the damper is the most expensive part that comes with the kit. A lot of companies promote the # of adjustment "clicks" on their dampers as a feature, with out posting a dynograph of the adjustment range of that damper.... well its time to start questioning why. Because "32 way adjustible" really tells me squat about the damper other then it is suposidly adjustible. It doesnt tell me what gets adjusted, it doesnt tell me the range in which those things get adjusted in. in order to lower costs, they end up using dampers of a more primitive design. you'll notice that most if not all use dampers that adjust both their bump valving and rebound valving with one knob. There's a reason for this, as dampers of this sort are easier to design and manufactur (theres only one set of Valve stacks that need to be turned with the adjuster, Vs ones where you only adjust rebound that have two sets of valve stacks, one that gets alterd by the adjustment knob and one that doesnt). Great for the company as they can sell their "coilovers" for less, bad for tuners because you now have an inferior damper. Also valving adjustment range tends to be very limited with the "cheep" coilovers.

In the whole, why would some one want a single adjustible damper to only adjust Rebound rather then Bump and rebound at the same time... well, that deals more with ride quality and how the car reacts to rough surfaces and impacts. See, bump valving has a much bigger influence on how the car reacts to impacts then rebound... It could be said that stiffer bump valving sort of Fakes a higher spring rate. The problem with that is, since they have the side effect of "faking" a stiffer spring, you are also "faking" a higher suspension frequency.... meaning the car will have less traction over bumps and rough surfaces. With a damper that adjusts bump and rebound at the same time, you end up running in to an issue of "I need stiffer valving to get the car to handle and respond the way I want, but I cant run to high of a bump valving with out making the car unstable in turns that arnt perfectly smooth"

"Low speed Valving deals primairly with Handling, as it influences how quickly weight gets transfered around the chassis.
High speed Valving deals primairly with how the shock reacts to impacts, such as bumps and ruts....
Mid speed Valving deals a bit with both.
then you get in to Bump Valvling Vs Rebound Valving.
Bump Primiaily deals with ride quality.
Rebound Primaily deals with handling."


There you have it this is why “pre-built” coilovers are not ideal for competition. For most these are perfectly fine for daily/street driving, but if you even think you will do any competiton then double think your purchase of a “pre-built” coilover.

This below picture was taken by honda93:



Notice the shock travel is about 4"? That distance is cut down in half when you lower your car.

[Highrev1]

"All springs "Bounce" its in their nature. Dampers Control the springs Occilations (bouncing). So if your car is bouncing, its not the springs fault its the dampers fault. To stop them from making the ride bouncy you need the proper damper (shock)."

As you can see without a proper damper lowering springs can do more harm than good. You are limiting suspension travel, and hampering the way your dapmers control the sprign and the ride.

You will hear people say "Oh I pust springs on my car and the other day I blew a shock" EH it DOESN"T happen that way. They don't just last so long then go one day, They slowly degrade over time. The day you drive your car off the lot they start to degrade. You probably will never tell that they are getting worse unless you replace them with new ones and then say wow this is different. Handling and ride will change with new shocks and you will be able to tell how bad your present one were.

"So, do your self a favor. if you are rideing on OEM dampers with lowering springs now, pick up some quality performance dampers when they come out. THey are well worth it... given that your dampers will do more for your cars overall performance then springs alone ever could."

[JeShUa]

Theres nothing out right now to my knowledge... :[

[Highrev1]

[quote=Highrev1]"So, do your self a favor. if you are rideing on OEM dampers with lowering springs now, pick up some quality performance dampers when they come out. QUOTE]

Custom koni's are, so are custom Moton's. And one OTS damper I forget which company. But for the most part your right no good options out right now.

[JeShUa]

Haha.. who carries those? I have yet to see them ;].

[aki]

Don’t run the OEM dampers with any lowering springs, Progressive rate springs don’t have a definitive spring rate because as their compressed their rate will increase, although they will be more comfortable than a linear rate spring, which rate will always stay constant.

This is partially wrong. A lot of springs aren't true progressive, but are dual rated springs. Meaning, when the softer section's coils close up completely (aka coil bind), then it transitions into the stiffer spring rate. Progressive springs doesn't always mean it has some amorphous, mysterious spring rate. It's an inaccurate description of how most progressive aftermarket springs operate.

The transition is what potentially hurts performance. An abrupt change from a lower to higher spring rate can cause an unexpected loss in traction, esp. under quick weight transfer. This, however, depends on how severe the spring rate ramps up. Heck, the '98 ITR in Japan had progressive rate springs to the rear (2.5-4.5 kg/mm or 140.0-252.0 lb/in).

I agree that correct dampening along with the right springs will always be better than just springs. But that isn't to say certain lowering springs won't benefit handling. Getting a coilover isn't necessarily the "better" setup, and springs aren't necessarily "bad."

[Highrev1]

:) Gimme a min I will explain

[aki]

Originally Posted by Highrev1

:) Gimme a min I will explain

Possibly pre-empting your response, I'd say cutting the bump stops gets some of that suspension travel between the rod and bumpstop back. =) A 1" drop with a 25mm cut to the bumpstop pretty much provides the same travel distance. Granted, Koni's would always be better than just some springs, but I'm not a hardcore racer and don't need such a setup. Like I said in a diff thread, it depends on each person's needs.

[Highrev1]

AKI Not trying to be a dick here Its tuff to tell Sacasam especially mine, online, I am a pisser I know We are both on the same page though

Notice here they give two numbers one for inital spring rate and one for compress 06+ Civic Si 2/4dr Spring Rates and Drop Guide both the transion and the fact that there isn't a set rate and it is ALWAYS changing, that is what makes them less of a performance spring.

Spring rates aren't that import, the wheel rates are what is the key to handling/traction. FIrst firgure out the motion ration of the suspension, its like .95 up front or so and the rear is about .6.
Front wheel rate 190
Rear wheel rate 138
This means the rear spring should be about 70% stiffer. Most companies aren't like this on many setups because there are other things that influence wheel rates. Also they need to sell these to JoeSMOE/public and they are used on the street mostly and want to set your car up for understeer for Lawsuit reason :) Back on topic.......

There is plenty of "credence" to it The stock dampers suck, they are barely good enough for the stock springs. Personally I've already had my stock ones replaced by the dealer as have alot of other members on the site. So if you change to an aftermarket spring the chance of ruining your dampers is increased.

I am not expressing that any car wont handle better then stock with just performance springs on stock dampers, I'm saying that if you were to only change out one part, Springs OR dampers, that you'd see a bigger gain in handling by swaping out the dampers Then you would with just changing springs. Its not ideal to do just springs. IMO is worth waiting for companies to come out with any decent damper

"Ok, the amount of traction a tire makes is determined by how much weight is placed on that tire. Meaning, as more weight is applied to the tires contact patch, the more grip that tire has. However! as weight is applied to the tires contact patch, the rate in wich traction is gained is reduced. Meaning the tire gains traction at a lower and lower rate as weight is applied. Example (Fake tire) Tire A has 50LBS applied to the contact patch and makes 150 "Units" of traction. A 1 To 3 Ratio (Weight Vs Traction) If 100 LBS is applied to the tire, it now makes 250"Units" of traction. A 2.5 To 1 Ratio. So you see that even though the tire makes more traciton, it is at a lesser rate. now if you extrapolate this out, there will be a point where the amount of weight applied to the tire exceeds how much traction it can make. that is the point of saturation, and the tire begins to slide.

You can see how controling weight is very important to the handling of a car. Where it goes, how fast it gets there, how smoothly it gets there ect.... Handling is all about controling weight. And what controls weight transfer the Low speed damper valving, it alters the speed in which weight is transfered around the chassis during a turn." Quoted from a wise man

[aki]

Originally Posted by Highrev1

I am not expressing that any car wont handle better then stock with just performance springs on stock dampers, I'm saying that if you were to only change out one part, Springs OR dampers, that you'd see a bigger gain in handling by swaping out the dampers Then you would with just changing springs. Its not ideal to do just springs. IMO is worth waiting for companies to come out with any decent damper

Oh I agree with you here. You're likely reducing the lifespan of your shocks, and it's not ideal. Like I said, it depends on each person's needs. If you thrash your car on the track, better off spending a bit more on a nice suspension setup for better dampening. But I disagree with sweeping generalizations of "coilovers good" or "springs bad." If you never push your car to the tractional limit where it starts mattering more, no sense in investing that money on a fancy suspension you'll never use. My .02 cents.

[Highrev1]

Well considering we have "coilovers" from the factory They aren't bad I am just not a fan of the "pre-built" coilovers at ALL. Most people know that :) I would much rather "piece" my suspension together pick my springs pick my valving, pick my bushings etc..

If your never going to use it why get it...No need to spend money where it isn't going to be used, A TRULEY good suspension won't be used on the street by any means. I am glad to see there are more than just Fanbois on this site

[futhermucker]

mmm seems like theres so much to think about with this crap... i think ima just go grab some coilovers and move on lol