Suspension Theory/Chat Thread

[Sirbelch]

Revy and I just happen to be more interested thant anyone else, hence us being the only two people carrying on the converstion. If you get rid of Revy, then who will spread the word of the suspension gods? Yodums, ask some questions, and maybe we can answer them. Thats what this thread is for and should be stickied if it isn't already.

[Highrev1]

Another sticky..??? I am doing a diy spring install one tonight hopefully and I want that one up there...Proper Tourque specs and the proper way to do it NOT standing on the spring

[Yodums]

Hey man, I lurk this thread! Actually, I think it's actually better if this wasn't stickied. The thread is fairly active and it'll always be floating at the top. The new guys seem to glance right over the stickies. However, they may glance right over this thread too when they see Greg's name. haha.

[Highrev1]

Thats not the point of my posts..Its not to Scare people it to educate...But what Belch and I have found is that MOST DON"T TRULY CARE...they wan't that slameed poor handling look...

Sorry Belch for brining you into this but its true right???

[Sirbelch]

Yeah its true, most poeple don't give a rats ass that the 1200 they just spent on coilovers is doing them no good because they over lowered the car. They just think it handles better because there is less body roll. I will keep trying to educate even if it falls on deaf ears (monologes in their heads?). If i convert one person out of 100, it will be enough. I was looking for a good suspension church to go to and Reverend Revy opened the door and let me in. Here is an example where poeple just don't listen because it looks good slamed.

<<<Pics of My TEIN Basic Installed>>>

[Highrev1]

I never read that thread I see your attempts appear to be futile Thats how it goes around herrrrrr

[Highrev1]

Man I re-read that and as some points you were just totally Ingored!!!

[LucasBlack]

i'm around too!

my participation has been sparse, because school has started again for me and classes and responsibilities have begun to take over my life.

with that said, i had a comment on the slight "4w drift" versus stuck to the road traction:

- think about this: what does friction do? we use friction, through braking, to slow our cars down. we use friction to keep things from moving, we rely on friction for safety reasons. and we know that friction is something that can rob power from our engines.
with that in mind, why would rely on it to be fast?
think about top fuel drag cars and the like: through centrifugal forces, those huge slicks actually narrow their contact patch as they accelerate, thereby reducing the amount of friction existing between the car and the road, therefore reducing resistance.

with all that said, why would we completely rely on friction to be quick?

[Highrev1]

yeah theres what Belch, AKI, Lucas, legendman, who else onhere acuatlly understands what neeeds to get done to handle well?/

Its almost the lack of friction that makes it faster...That extra 5-6% on the tires acuatl grip is what wins and loses laps around a track...Dam I have done wheel to wheel racing and open lapping days and I will tell you Open lapping I can propably BEST my W2W time BY alomst half a second or MORE!!!

Lets start a new subject...TURNS!!!!!! There are three areas of a turn
ENTRY
APEX
EXIT

Who wants to give a brief summary...I am so not me

[LucasBlack]

Originally Posted by Highrev1

Man I re-read that and as some points you were just totally Ingored!!!

i think one of my more favorite posts on that thread is the guy who made the note about how good the susp. products looked together....
...they're hidden behind your wheels and are practically underneath your entire car! who cares what that would look like?
if that isn't a testament to suspension modifications not being thought of as just "things that can make your car handle better", then i don't know what is...

[Highrev1]

Link to the thread??

BRB gotta clean up here at my resturant

[Sirbelch]

Originally Posted by LucasBlack

i think one of my more favorite posts on that thread is the guy who made the note about how good the susp. products looked together....
...they're hidden behind your wheels and are practically underneath your entire car! who cares what that would look like?
if that isn't a testament to suspension modifications not being thought of as just "things that can make your car handle better", then i don't know what is...

Thats the post that made me give up on those lost souls.

In the TF example, they all so need the tire to become taller in order to make the final drive taller to slow the car down to keep the tires from spinning. Also the the taller tire covers more ground per revolution than a shorter tire which cause the car to get to the end faster.

[Sirbelch]

entry - beginning
apex - not always the center of the corner. Place where most grip and direction change occours. Place where foot should be getting back on the gas unless its a long sweeper in which you foot is partially on the throttle in order to maintain speed.
exit - end

Does that work? Hows the mess coming and what kinda food do you all cook?

[Highrev1]

Originally Posted by Sirbelch

entry - beginning
apex - not always the center of the corner. Place where most grip and direction change occours. Place where foot should be getting back on the gas unless its a long sweeper in which you foot is partially on the throttle in order to maintain speed.
exit - end

Does that work? Hows the mess coming and what kinda food do you all cook?

Brake in a straight LINE!!! THEN
Entry-Enter as late as you feel safe...Most of the time people are early and thats NG..Throttle modulation is KEY!!! NO neutral thats bad
APex-LATE!! If you utalize the "normal" apex of a turn you will be slow compared to other drivers.. Apexing late allows for a much faster corner exit speed..Generally you are full throttle at or just after apex of the turn...
EXIT-This is where Fast means fast...All your speed is made up thorugh corner exit speed, if this is slow YOU are SLOW. I fyou early apex you lose speed into the next straight slowing the max speed the car can acieve through the straight immeditly following a turn...

Now its worth mentioning giving up one turn to go faster through another...FOr example 2 turn in sequence, FIrst on is dogged to allow for a better apex through the second allowing for a faster exit speed which means inceased speed through the following straight

Its a Buffet/Steakhouse Its acutally a PONDEROSA a chain Only one left in NJ....

[Sirbelch]

Also, in wheel to wheel racing, if you are trying to pass an opponent and he protects the inside line, which causes and early apex, you should late apex the corner to try to get a run on the next straigh if it is long enough. If the next straight is short it ends in a corner that is an opposite direction of the turn you just went through, you need to out brake your opponent in order to stay on the outside through the corner. This will allow you to have the inside line for that second turn and allow you to complete the pass.

How come my F1 sidewall hight question didn't get a responce?

I hope your business is doing well so that there will always be one left in NJ.

[LucasBlack]

i wish people who had a genuine curiousity would come in and ask some questions.

as much as i love reading what y'all are sharing, i find myself getting off/on lightly frustrated because i would much prefer sitting down with both of y'all and having an extended in-person conversation about what we've touched upon here lately over a sweet cup o' joe.

[Sirbelch]

Originally Posted by LucasBlack

i wish people who had a genuine curiousity would come in and ask some questions.

as much as i love reading what y'all are sharing, i find myself getting off/on lightly frustrated because i would much prefer sitting down with both of y'all and having an extended in-person conversation about what we've touched upon here lately over a sweet cup o' joe.

Yeah, that would be nice, but we would have to record the whole conversation and dictate it on to the forum so that everyone could learn from it. Plus the whole NJ TX CA location thing would be kinda hard to work out.

How do pushrod suspension work? Like the ones found in open wheel cars. I don't see how vertical movement can be dampened by something that is perpendicular to the rod and the movement of the rod.

[aki]

Originally Posted by Sirbelch

Why do F1 cars have such high side walls on their tires? Does this have some advantage that I don't know about? Sports cars don't. Turing cars don't. Nascar does, but thats due to the rules.

Taller sidewalls allow for the stiffer damper/spring settings used in race cars. The tire actually serves as part of the suspension. In addition, taller tires can adapt more to drastic camber changes, whereas low-profile tires can have the tread lifted.

Plus I'm pretty sure it's a safety thing mandated by the FIA. Taller tires tend to be more forgiving at the limit AFAIK.

I got a question for y'all (esp HighRev). I'm looking to change my wheels, in part for aesthetics but in part so I can take advantage of wider tires. I'm debating between 17x8 et42, 17x8 et32, and 18x7.5 et35. Now I know going too low from the stock offset can cause more torque steer, uneven tread wear, stress on wheel bearing, etc, but I was wondering how low you can go before this really adversely impacts your handling? I also know lower offsets have a wider track, which would contribute to more stability in corners, and give more road feedback through the steering wheel. I kinda want to stay away from 18" (extra unsprung weight), but that width/offset seems like a happy medium between the two. That, and I have a set of 17" RE070 tires sitting on my patio waiting to get installed (going 18" would be a lot pricier). Fender rub wouldn't be much of a concern to me, since I could always just roll fenders.

Any thoughts/experiences would help.

[Sirbelch]

I can't help with the offest issue (both sets of aftermarket rims had a stock offset) but i can help with the diameter. I've had 18's and now run 17's. If you are serious about performance, you want the lighest widest wheel you can fit with the widest tire on top of that. 17's are going to be lighter than any 18 of the same model wheel. When I went from 18's to 17's the difference, with tire was 12 lbs PER WHEEL. Talk about a difference in handling, acceleration and braking. A light weigh wheel is the only mod that will increase the performance of all three. And since it will be cheaper for you i'd say get some 17's. If you are scared about the offset, get the one that is closer to the stock +45.

[Highrev1]

Originally Posted by aki

I got a question for y'all (esp HighRev). I'm looking to change my wheels, in part for aesthetics but in part so I can take advantage of wider tires. I'm debating between 17x8 et42, 17x8 et32, and 18x7.5 et35. Now I know going too low from the stock offset can cause more torque steer, uneven tread wear, stress on wheel bearing, etc, but I was wondering how low you can go before this really adversely impacts your handling? I also know lower offsets have a wider track, which would contribute to more stability in corners, and give more road feedback through the steering wheel.
Any thoughts/experiences would help.

Lots of questions...I will hit up some later....FIANCE bitching
Generally I run the smallest wheel that will fit under the brakes needed for what the car will be utalized for...

EVEN if you were to run a 195 you want to go with as WIDE of a wheel as possible....I know, once I get my new wheels I am going to calclulate exactly the offset for the width that I will be running that will allow proper clearance...Probably 9" wheels....BUt I will also probabhly run 245's or more/up front....Now enough about me...Generally ou want to run the closest offset to stock as you can to fit what tires you can run without rubbing...THere is a formula..I don't recall it off hand but will sooner rather than later..

I will get some conclusions for you shortly....