oem Civic Si front brakes on my LX!! -impressions...(pics)

[CZ-75]

You'd only need the front calipers and brackets; the rear brakes are the same.

[Andrei'sCivic]

Originally Posted by CZ-75

You'd only need the front calipers and brackets; the rear brakes are the same.

What about me... what do I need to swap out my rear drum brakes for 10.2" discs?
I heard its a pain to hook up the parking brake when converting to disc?

[Andrei'sCivic]

Originally Posted by 06RREX

Ok time to revive a dead thread (better than wasting space on a new one) I just read through this whole thread and here are my questions:

I am looking at the new HFP brakes on my EX. In order to do that, I should ONLY need the Si calipers. So my brake setup would be entirely new with the HFP kit. I would have invested appx. 800 dollars in a brake setup. Bigger and slotted rotors, Bigger calipers, bigger everything it seems. So, after reading this thread I am under the impression that I would invest 800 dollars in a braking system that is actually WORSE than before, due to the ABS? If I changed EVERYTHING (like I am planning to do) with my brakes, (Not just the front like Andrei'sCivic did) would it be better?

So questions are:
1. Would my braking system (stopping distance and that stuff) get worse with the new brake setup?
2. I would be changing all 4 brakes, not just the front two, so shouldnt that make up the difference between the two? (Andrei'sCivic only changed the front two)
3. How would my braking effectiveness differ between lighter braking (non-ABS braking) and heavy braking (ABS engaged)
4. Would I need anything else other than buying the Si brake calipers to complete this HFP brake setup on my EX?

I paid $150 for oem Si rotors, calipers, brake pads and brake lines, from the Tein garage sale. They said they had five miles on them.

[Andrei'sCivic]

I believe my car does stop quicker. I believe the Si compensates for added brake torque by using a smaller piston in their caliper. I say this because the brake pads for the Si are a little smaller than that of the LX/EX.

[CZ-75]

Originally Posted by Andrei'sCivic

What about me... what do I need to swap out my rear drum brakes for 10.2" discs?
I heard its a pain to hook up the parking brake when converting to disc?

I'd buy everything from an EX rear braking system that wasn't the same part number as the LS. Even the parking brake cables could be different.

[CZ-75]

Originally Posted by Andrei'sCivic

I believe my car does stop quicker. I believe the Si compensates for added brake torque by using a smaller piston in their caliper. I say this because the brake pads for the Si are a little smaller than that of the LX/EX.

Did you measure? Si uses 54mm piston and I'm guessing the non-Si uses a 57mm b/c the 10.3" rotor front brakes have been in use since at least 1990 and they've always used that size previously.

[Andrei'sCivic]

Originally Posted by CZ-75

Did you measure? Si uses 54mm piston and I'm guessing the non-Si uses a 57mm b/c the 10.3" rotor front brakes have been in use since at least 1990 and they've always used that size previously.

The si uses smaller brake pads so I would assume it has a smaller piston in the caliper.
But for some reason the si caliper weighs up to a pound more than the LX caliper.

I read somewhere; where they were trying to inform us on big brake kits that more pistons and or larger ones make it harder to modulate braking. (along those lines)

[07mugencivic]

nice upgrade

[Andrei'sCivic]

I was thinking about getting 13" rotors up front. Either aftermarket or the 13" front rotors/dual-piston calipers from the 07 Acura MDX if they fit.

If I get 13" rotrs up front than i would get the Acura 11.1" rear disc brakes.

The only thing is you will definetly feel a difference in acceleration. My Civic especially since its an R18 my car felt slower in first and second gear, a little bit in third as well. I wonder if this affects my quarter mile time enough to notice? By installing the front oem Si brakes I added 6 lbs. to the rotor (reciprocating mass/unsprung weight) and up to an extra pound with the Si caliper.(simply unsprung weight)

But the braking makes up for it. And the added brake torque definetly adds confidence. You will love your brakes! I might even say if you have an EX Civic and you convert the front brakes to the Si ones, that you might be done. I on the other hand still have to deal with drums in the rear.
I hear the big advantage of rear disc brakes on the EX over the drums on the LX is not so much; the fact that the rotors can handle more heat and are ventalated, nor do you decrease your braking distance a lot. However some magazine did write that they noticed that the Civic EX would brake straighter than the Civic LX. I remember braking from my 125mph and my rear end would sway left and right.

[Andrei'sCivic]

Since the LX Civic is approximately 200lbs lighter than the Si, putting the
11.8" rotors on the LX would be similar to if I were to put a 13" aftermarket BBK on the Si.
The fact was I went for it because it was so cheap, I thought I would never come up on a deal like this again.

[CZ-75]

Originally Posted by Andrei'sCivic

The si uses smaller brake pads so I would assume it has a smaller piston in the caliper.
But for some reason the si caliper weighs up to a pound more than the LX caliper.

I read somewhere; where they were trying to inform us on big brake kits that more pistons and or larger ones make it harder to modulate braking. (along those lines)

Stiffer calipers give better pedal feel and help with pad deflection from flexing.

[CZ-75]

Originally Posted by Andrei'sCivic

However some magazine did write that they noticed that the Civic EX would brake straighter than the Civic LX. I remember braking from my 125mph and my rear end would sway left and right.

Drum brakes are, by design, self energizing, and harder to modulate than discs, in addition to being more fade prone. It wouldn't surprise me if EBD/ABS is programmed to give a lower line pressure to rear drums. I'd expect that your ABS was doing the modulation of your rear brakes as they were approaching lockup and this isn't as seamless as with rear discs.

[Andrei'sCivic]

Originally Posted by CZ-75

Stiffer calipers give better pedal feel and help with pad deflection from flexing.

Does a smaller diameter piston mean a stiffer one?

[CZ-75]

Originally Posted by Andrei'sCivic

Does a smaller diameter piston mean a stiffer one?

I believe that it requires a smaller volume of fluid be displaced, but I'm not sure that that necessarily means a firmer pedal, since the MC can be tuned to compensate for greater or lesser displacement.

[inyong1988]

pic wont work.

[aki]

Originally Posted by Andrei'sCivic

IBut the braking makes up for it. And the added brake torque definetly adds confidence. You will love your brakes!

I said it before, and I'll re-emphasize: you will feel the brakes to be more firm and more responsive. This is because less pedal effort is required to hit the braking limit, resulting from the increased brake torque from the front rotors.

However, braking performance nevertheless is reduced. Stronger brake torque changes the brake pedal feel, but throws off brake bias/balance/ABS. A car doesn't need much brake torque to hit the limit, because the braking limit always lies with the frictional limit of the tires, not the brake system itself.

An easy way to prove this: slam the brakes on a stock LX, and you'll see that ABS kicks in to prevent the wheels from locking--that alone proves that there's enough brake torque in a stock, non-Si. You never need more brake torque; what you need is better braking efficiency and optimized brake balance/bias.

Just because your brakes have a firmer bite doesn't mean they're improving performance.

[Andrei'sCivic]

Originally Posted by aki

I said it before, and I'll re-emphasize: you will feel the brakes to be more firm and more responsive. This is because less pedal effort is required to hit the braking limit, resulting from the increased brake torque from the front rotors.

However, braking performance nevertheless is reduced. Stronger brake torque changes the brake pedal feel, but throws off brake bias/balance/ABS. A car doesn't need much brake torque to hit the limit, because the braking limit always lies with the frictional limit of the tires, not the brake system itself.

An easy way to prove this: slam the brakes on a stock LX, and you'll see that ABS kicks in to prevent the wheels from locking--that alone proves that there's enough brake torque in a stock, non-Si. You never need more brake torque; what you need is better braking efficiency and optimized brake balance/bias.

Just because your brakes have a firmer bite doesn't mean they're improving performance.

- I think that Honda tried to make up for too much added brake torque by giving the Si smaller pistons in its calipers. If not that than just smaller brake pads. < (NOT saying that smaller brake pads reduce brake torque)
Seriously if I get the rear disc brakes, do I have to change out my brake proportioning valve and master cylinder never the less?

[06RREX]

I am looking at the new HFP brakes on my EX. In order to do that, I should ONLY need the Si calipers. So my brake setup would be entirely new with the HFP kit. I would have invested appx. 800 dollars in a brake setup. Bigger and slotted rotors, Bigger calipers, bigger everything it seems. So, after reading this thread I am under the impression that I would invest 800 dollars in a braking system that is actually WORSE than before, due to the ABS? If I changed EVERYTHING (like I am planning to do) with my brakes, (Not just the front like Andrei'sCivic did) would it be better?

So questions are:
1. Would my braking system (stopping distance and that stuff) get worse with the new brake setup?
2. I would be changing all 4 brakes, not just the front two, so shouldnt that make up the difference between the two? (Andrei'sCivic only changed the front two)
3. How would my braking effectiveness differ between lighter braking (non-ABS braking) and heavy braking (ABS engaged)


I still need these 3 Q's answered! Any help??

[CZ-75]

No help because we can only speculate. I'd stick with buying better pads and tires. The braking performance of the Si is better than of my old Integra GS-R (which was slightly less brake than the new Civic EX), both from personal experience and comparison of test numbers, but not significantly so. The 4-channel ABS, stiffer pedal feel and wider tires probably make up most of the difference in performance. I would expect your acceleration and handling to get worse with more unsprung weight at the front.

[Andrei'sCivic]

Originally Posted by CZ-75

I would expect your acceleration and handling to get worse with more unsprung weight at the front.

Thats true... my car felt a bit slower off the line. But if you really need more heat capacity because you canyon run, etc.. then get bigger brakes.
-But yeah you will notice the biggest difference when you change your tires.

-After all your tires are the most important part of your car, because tires are the only thing that keep you in contact with the road.
Try putting on some fresh Type R compound tires lets say 225 or 235mm in width. You'll be amazed how well your car will brake on dry pavement.