|10-02-2012, 12:26 AM||#21 (permalink)|
Join Date: Jul 2008
Bottom line our front calipers are working really hard! my rears are barely worn. I would love to upgrade to bigger but want to stay in stock class. I'm sure changing them to bigger would help us drastically. If upgrade is an option might as well get 4 piston calipers or even 2 piston and then I wont mind changing classes. Think about it, the 08 civic type r comes with stock 4 piston Brembos for a reason don't you think.
Haha same here dude, toe is tough on our cars, we need torque there. Third gear at turn 7 is the only way. I still don't know how to heal-toe so that turn was screwing with me both days. That track is AMAZING!! wow! can't wait for next year. Limerock meh! maybe i'll go back to it someday.
Pilot cups are very consistent thats all I keep hearing, sorry haven't own them. Too bad Pilots are over priced.. ;-P
For power and rpm changes get flash pro, promise that will fix your issues for now.
|10-03-2012, 01:22 AM||#23 (permalink)|
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: San Diego
I'll share my experiences with the combination of parts that I feel are worthwhile for a daily driven Si that also sees frequent mountain drives and track days.
First and foremost, handling is the area that has made make the biggest and most enjoyable difference for me. I will discuss each area that I prioritize.
Traction: Tires & Motor Mounts
Your tires will make the biggest difference in handling even on stock cars. The Si is equipped with Maximum Performance tires and switching to an Extreme Performance summer tire and higher will make even a tragic suspension quick. The reason is simple: more traction. I really like the Hankook RS-3's in 225/45/17. They're a little wider and have unbelievable grip for the money. Despite the 140 treadwear, they have lasted quite a while and still going strong.
Motor mounts are often over-looked but have been a major help in maintaining traction for this car. Boomba seems to be popular but I favor the Innovative mounts as the Innovative passenger side mount is a much more effective design. The trouble with front wheel drive cars is that the power transfer to the wheels and the steering is all ran on the front axle. Additionally, whenever you're accelerating, weight transfers to the rear lifting the front of the car and creating a larger imbalance of weight transfer during shifting, consequently affecting traction.You'll be surprised how much traction is maintained when using these things and how still the engine remains even during high load.
Brakes: Stainless-steel Lines, Brake Fluid, Pads & Rotors.
All of these elements will contribute to stopping more effectively but these components don't affect your ability to slow down quickly (tires do that). These parts will affect your ability to stop consistently. Stainless steel lines make a huge difference in pedal firmness and consistency. I use Stop-tech.
Brake fluid should be matched to a pad with similar operating temperatures. My experience so far has been DOT-4 fluid is sufficient for dual-purpose cars. I have used Motul RBF-600 and Amsoil DOT-4. I like both and although Motul has a slightly higher boiling temperature, I have found that Amsoil is better at keeping moisture in suspension when the fluid does boil. Basically, you'll be bleeding the Amosil fluid a lot less. With Motul, I had to bleed the brakes after every track weekend. With Amsoil, I have been able to go 3-4 weekends before needing to bleed.
My picks for brake pads are Hawk HPS' for street and mountains and Hawk HP+'s for the fronts only during road racing. I burnt through the HPS' my first time on the Streets of Willow track pretty quickly. I used the the HP+'s this last time and they did phenomenal. An additional bonus is that the HP+'s are also sufficient for getting you to and from the track. Some people like using them for daily driving but I find them too noisy.
My experience with rotors have entailed using Stop-tech slotted and Brembo blanks. Out of all of them, I like the Brembo blanks the best. Stop-tech was alright the first go at Streets of Willow, but I felt they were unnecessary. I have since switched to Brembo blanks and they have done great. A premium blank rotor does surprisingly well even during road racing. I have used the same rotors now for 2 years now and they don't have any abnormal wear. Still strong!
Alignment: Camber Bolts & Arms
Alignment also goes a long way on a stock Si. Chris from Redshift Motorsport has a good write-up regarding alignment and tire pressure that you can read about here. I personally use SPC, but you'll want bolts and arms with good adjustability. I would shoot for parts that can achieve -3 of camber.
Suspension: Rear Sway-bar, Springs & Dampeners
The best bang for the buck suspension mod is hands-down the Progress rear sway-bar. Makes the car rotate way the hell better. Honestly, this damn thing should be on the Si from the factory!
I have used a couple different springs ranging from OEM, HFP, Eibach Pro-kit and Neuspeed Sports. Out of all of those, the Neuspeed Sports are the best in handling. The drop is reasonable and performance is top-notch. The main reason is that the rear springs are progressive and crazy stiff in the right spot to facilitate more oversteer (or reducing understeer). When using these, you must get upgraded dampeners.
Currently, I am using the Koni Sports with the Neuspeed springs. This is a fantastic combo but the Koni's alone are fantastic. I used the Eibach's with these as well. The Koni's are rebound adjustable (compression is fixed) and can be fine-tuned to any spring. Ride quality varies based on tuning and springs. I currently run all 4 dampeners a half-turn firm from full soft and have found this to have better traction and comfort than the HFP spring and dampener combo.
Power: Basic bolt-ons, FlashPro tune
I feel power should be the last thing addressed on this particular car because the improvement on handling has made the biggest improvement in the driving experience. Even with factory power, the handling upgrades will make for a tremendously more enjoyable experience. When you're accustomed to driving the car with a more balanced and consistent handling setup, you can increase the power and go faster.
My current mods include a custom air intake (almost identical to the T1R intake), the Vibrant race header with high-flow cat and cat-back exhaust, Skunk2 Stage 1 cams and a FlashPro dyno tune. This setup is sufficient for my dual purpose needs but there are much better parts out there now from when I first pieced together my power mods.
The main thing to achieve in a track car is a BROAD power band with a flat torque curve. High-rev limits, top-end power and high horsepower numbers are better suited for a drag racing car. I actually feel those type of mods make it more difficult in the Si because the car already has a power bias toward the top of the rev range and the stock, close-ratio gearing already force you to work harder to keep the revs up. At least with a broader power range you'll be able to roll on the throttle in a more controlled manner, improving lap times.
Camshafts can do wonders in the shifting the power curve with appropriate supporting mods. I would suggest researching dyno charts in the Cams/Internals threads and look for setups with broad torque curves.
Finally, a quality FlashPro tune will make it all work beautifully and reliably!
Summary of Parts:
Tires: Extreme Performance Summer Tires (Personal fav: Hankook RS-3)
Motor Mounts: Innovative Performance 75A
Stainless-steel Lines: Stop-Tech, Goodridge or Cor-Sport
Brake Fluid: Amsoil DOT-4 or Motul RBF-600 if you don't mind bleeding more often
Pads: Hawk HPS for Street/Mountain; Hawk HP+ (fronts only) for track days
Camber Bolts/Arms: SPC (see Redshift article for alignment needs)
Rear-sway Bar: Progress Technology
Springs: Neuspeed Sports
Dampeners: Koni Sports
Power: FlashPro tune with whatever combination that will achieve a broad power band and a flat torque curve. If you are receptive to using camshafts, base your specific supporting mods around the cams that will achieve a broad power band.
*One special note I would like to mention is fluids. Quality fluids will ensure maximum performance, protection and longevity in a dual-purpose car. I use all Amsoil products for this reason. I already expressed my love for the DOT-4 brake fluid (which I use for clutch fluid as well) and I use the Signature Series 5W-30 motor oil for all my daily driving, mountain drives and some track days depending on the projected temperatures at the track. If it's in the winter season or 90 and below I will stick, with that motor oil. If it's going to be hotter than that, I use the Dominator Racing 10W-30 motor oil. In both cases, I also use their oil filter. I also use the Manual Synchromesh Transmission fluid which is great even for street-only cars. Smoothes out shifting big time. Additionally, I use OEM coolant mixed with the Dominator Coolant Booster. Very effective at transferring heat away even in the stock radiator. The car can warm up faster too.
Finally, I use the Dominator Octane Booster as a safety precaution. My car is tuned on 91-octane pump gas but it's never a bad idea to add quality octane booster to make the engine more knock-resistent since you'll be spending a lot of your time at wide-open throttle, high-end of the rev range, and constantly switching from medium to high engine loads all in hot-ass 100 degree plus weather.
Amsoil products are more expensive but they also are much higher quality than a lot of the other stuff out there and last a hell of a lot longer too, making them a cost-effective option for the long run; especially with the Signature Series motor oil which can be changed every 25,000 miles or once a year. I wouldn't suggest waiting that long in a high-performance, street-driven and tracked car, but I have been using that motor oil and changing it every 12,000 miles for the past 4 years and have had no issues. In fact, I recently inspected the cams and they are in great shape with no signs of premature or abnormal wear.
It's long post but I hope this is helpful to you and anyone who reads this.
Last edited by jdizzle37; 10-03-2012 at 01:28 AM.
|10-03-2012, 04:17 AM||#24 (permalink)|
Join Date: Dec 2007
Good write up, but there's a few items that do differently.
The 225 RS3 are perfect for the stock rims, I did my first couple of track days with them.
The Hawk HP+ is a good beginner pad BUT one may out drive them very early on. A good choice would be the Project Mu Club Racer.
If you are race enough, you should be bleeding your brake fluid often.
I'm using two sets of camber bolts and I'm able to get -3.5 to -4 degrees of camber up front
|10-03-2012, 10:18 AM||#25 (permalink)|
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: San Diego
- I should've specified that I like the 225 RS-3's on stock wheels. To the OP, I like the RS-3's in general although the size you use will depend on your wheels.
- I have heard great things about the Project Mu Club and Carbotech pads as well.
- I think if you're really heating up your brake fluid enough that yes they should be bleed frequently. At the same time, getting the fluid to boil will happen based on temperatures the brakes see due to pads, rotors and driving style. For my style of driving, I tend to brake early and not as hard when coming into turns so I'm not as hard on the brakes as others. That's why, while using the Amsoil DOT-4 anyway, the pedal continued to feel firm even after a weekend. I didn't start noticing a spongy feeling until the the third or fourth weekend with Amsoil but it was really noticeable by the end of a single weekend with the RBF-600.
|10-03-2012, 10:48 AM||#26 (permalink)|
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Showa > Bor Chuan
You NEVER put an aftermarket camber bolt in the top hole, EVER!
Aftermarket bolts are inherently weaker than OEM bolts due to their design, and sometimes due to quality.
If a camber bolt fails in the bottom hole, no big deal, the wheel goes inward, stays relatively where it should, tire hits the strut, no harm, no foul.
If you put the bolt in the top hole, and it fails (and I've seen this happen), the tire and wheel will be able to go outward, through the fender. It can end up peeling back 90deg, bend and break very expensive steering and suspension parts, lose all ability to direct the car with steering, and potential cause a horrific accident.
So, if you at all care about yourself, or the other innocent people on the street and the track, you will NEVER put a cam bolt in the top hole on a MacPherson strut car.
Last edited by testify; 10-03-2012 at 10:49 AM.
|11-27-2012, 04:25 PM||#27 (permalink)|
Join Date: May 2007
Below is a conversation I had with Lee Niffenegger Honda R&D engineer, helped developed the 2006 Honda Civic Si. When he was racing a Showroom Stock Si in SCCA. I asked him in the end of 2008 for suggestions for the brake issues I was having.
Civic is tough on brakes... we run Cobalt XR2s on the front, XR3's on the rear. The only Hawk brake that would stop the car was the DTC70, but they were really hard on rotors and the wear rate was quite high.
We used a full H&R coilover damper not just springs on the other cars. The only brake cooling on the SSB car is the little scoop that hangs off the plastic inner fender. There is no air inlet on the front fascia. No cooling is allowed in SS.
I will most likely run the car again at the Runoffs, but the extent I will run during the season is up in the air.
|11-27-2012, 06:04 PM||#28 (permalink)|
Join Date: May 2008
Brakes are the biggest issue for me, even the hottest race pads will overheat on this car. Fluid will boil, caliper dust boots will melt and wheel weights will fall off if you don't take an easy cooldown lap and even some slow driving in the paddock, and it will still happen after a couple of days on track whatever you do.
If you stick with stock brakes expect to use a set of pads in 1 day once you get up to speed and you will still get pad fade by the afternoon no matter what compound you use. I have tried CL5+, XP12, DS1.11...
1. If I was to do this season again I would upgrade to TSX calipers and discs at the start just to save money on pads. ATE fluid is probably good enough for the price and how close it is to the higher temp fluids. Use blank (not slotted or drilled) rotors.
2. Not much mention of alignment in this thread. You need front camber to make your tires last and improve the balance.
3. Then tires/2nd set of wheels. You will overheat stock front tires.
4. Make sure the maintenance is up to date: a good synthetic oil, MTF fluid, coolant (if it is old), air filter, plugs.
Those 4 are the minimum you need to drive it hard. After that there's:
Harry's laptimer with a recent iphone and stable mount gets great quality vids. Add external bluetooth obd & gps dongles for a very nice learning tool.
Flashpro so you can set vtec earlier for more mid-range tq and get rid of rev hang. As a bonus you can use it to datalog water temps, revs & speed, knock (to make sure you're not killing your engine).
Suspension so you can improve the balance and grip.
Radiator to lower water temps.
Finally: power mods (along with oil cooling to cope).
Last edited by bludragon; 11-27-2012 at 06:05 PM.
|08-26-2013, 12:32 AM||#30 (permalink)|
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Houston Area
Have you tried looking into a traction bar and a rear x brace for the trunk? I know that drag people use them for going in straight lines due to the inevitable physics of the front wheel drive application but I don't know if they would do well on an actual track where the chassis is really pushed to its limits.
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