camber question...

[Sion0x]

I did a search, but didn't really find anything. When you lower your car with springs, what kind of camber do you get? (positive or negative)

Also, I hear that some camber is better for your handling, is this true?

I know your tires wear faster with camber, how much to be exact?

I'm looking at about a 2" drop from skunk2 or progress springs...

Don't really wanna shell out the money for the camber kits if its not ABSOLUTELY necessary.

[Chance]

bump. :|

[Zeuceone]

for a 2" drop you will need camber arms.

[Nomar06]

You will be getting a negative camber on the wheels when dropping the car. Anything over an inch you will need to adjust the camber.
You need to adjust camber since only the inner edge of the tire will be in contact with the tire. If you leave it with a severe camber angle you will wear out the tires faster because the inner edge of the tire will wear out faster than the outer edge.

[Sion0x]

do you need it for front AND rear?

because I heard only the rear get's really bad...

Since I don't want to buy a camber kit, what kinds of springs can I get that will make a significant performance/look difference that won't recquire camber adjustment?

[gesundlich]

Actually, it's not so much the negative camber that wears the tires, it's the toe.

I ran with -2.5 degrees of negative camber (front and rear) on my STi for over 2 years, but with ZERO toe. I never had abnormal tire wear. However, I religiously rotated my tires, too (like every oil change/3,000 miles).

In my experience, running -2 degrees of camber is pretty much the limit for a daily driven car. After that, you WILL start to show uneven wear.

So, don't worry about the camber (unless it's greater than -2 degrees). Worry about your toe and make sure it's at ZERO.

[Sion0x]

what's toe and how do you measure the camber in degrees?

[gesundlich]

To measure either camber, toe or castor, you need a specialized rack (i.e. like at an alignment shop- typically utilizing lasers).

Camber= relation of top of wheel to bottom of wheel (when looking at it from the front or back of the car). Typically measure in degrees (i.e. zero to 360 degrees), most factory street cars use zero to negative 1 degrees. Negative camber is when the top of the wheel is pointed in and the bottom is pointed out. Positive camber is when the top of the wheel is pointing out and the bottom is pointing in. Negative camber is better for side to side handling, at the expense of tire life (when it is extreme). When you turn a corner the outside tire tends to roll under the rim, causing it to wear on its outer edge. By laying it on its side you reduce this effect. Too much and it will wear on the inside, too little and wear on the outside. REMEMBER too much neg camber and you will lose traction in straight ahead driving as the tire is not flat on the road.

View from REAR (or front) of car:
negative camber / \ positive camber \ / zero camber I I


Toe= the relation of the front of the wheel to the back of the wheel when looking from the top of the car (like you were hovering above it). Typically measured in millimeters. Zero toe is the best for tire longevity. As a car moves forward the suspension often moves back reducing toe in, so cars are often set with 1 - 3 mm toe IN. If the car has toe out it often tends to wander on the road more.

View from ABOVE car:
negative toe (toe in) / \ positive toe (toe out) \ / zero toe I I

Castor= the angulation of the wheel in relation to the axis of the suspension. This is typically not adjustable on modern cars, so don't worry about it unless you're a professional race driver.

[Sion0x]

+1, GREAT info. Really helps alot.

[Nomar06]

Originally Posted by gesundlich

Actually, it's not so much the negative camber that wears the tires, it's the toe.

I ran with -2.5 degrees of negative camber (front and rear) on my STi for over 2 years, but with ZERO toe. I never had abnormal tire wear. However, I religiously rotated my tires, too (like every oil change/3,000 miles).

In my experience, running -2 degrees of camber is pretty much the limit for a daily driven car. After that, you WILL start to show uneven wear.

So, don't worry about the camber (unless it's greater than -2 degrees). Worry about your toe and make sure it's at ZERO.

Its one thing to talk about a subie and another to talk about an Si.

When I first set up the Tein SS coilovers I had a bad neg camber, not sure on the degree(finger gap drop) Rode with it for a few days. I did the height adjustments and noticed that the plastic cover over the gas line/funnel in the drives rear wheel had been rubbed by the tire. I took it the same day to get it all lined up top get it corrected.

Heres a pic of the camber when it was rubbing on the plastic cover

[Sion0x]

So you got it adjusted without a camber kit?

[bboylocob]

just b/c you lower your car doesnt mean you need a camber kit.all you need is an alinment

[gesundlich]

You're right in regards to the Subie vs. Si wheel well and suspension clearances. However, the principals (i.e. tire wear and handling benefits) are the same. But, different cars mean different clearances.

So, my statement on the 2 degrees negative camber was made from a tire wear and handling standpoint, not a wheel well/suspension/fender liner standpoint.

My Eibach springs (1.4" drop) should be here in the next few days, so we'll see if any issues surface. Meanwhile, I'm anxiously awaiting the release of the Koni sports (yellow, adjustable). By far the best street/autoX setup I've used (including at least 4 different coilover setups).

[Nomar06]

I have the SPC camber kit in the rear. I def needed it since the stock mounting point for the stock arm would make the camber be like what I have pictured, way too much neg camber. The SPC mounting plate has 2 set of mounting holes. I accidently put it in the wrong ones first. Then changed to the other mounting holes but was giving me a pos camber so I had to push the wheels in as much as possible.

[Nomar06]

Originally Posted by bboylocob

just b/c you lower your car doesnt mean you need a camber kit.all you need is an alinment

Well during an alignment they will adjust the camber as well. From what I have seen on Cookstars car, he has about the same camber angle as I do now after my camber being corrected and he has HFP suspension. HFP only drops the car .9 of an inch.

[bboylocob]

Originally Posted by Nomar06

Well during an alignment they will adjust the camber as well. From what I have seen on Cookstars car, he has about the same camber angle as I do now after my camber being corrected and he has HFP suspension. HFP only drops the car .9 of an inch.

yea now if your gng to slam the car then yea you deff. need a camber kit but for like the hfp springs and eibach prokit or even the tein stech you should be fine with just an alignment.but anything lower than a 1.5inch drop i would get the camber kit

[Sion0x]

even with only a 1.5 inch drop, the handling is much better, right? Because if it greatly improves the handling and feel, I won't go 2 inches like I originally planned.

[AznSupastar]

Originally Posted by Nomar06

I have the SPC camber kit in the rear. I def needed it since the stock mounting point for the stock arm would make the camber be like what I have pictured, way too much neg camber. The SPC mounting plate has 2 set of mounting holes. I accidently put it in the wrong ones first. Then changed to the other mounting holes but was giving me a pos camber so I had to push the wheels in as much as possible.

how come u didn't need a front camber kit? generally i noticed a lot of ppl with lowered 8th gen civic usually have a noticable negative camber in rear. but not so much in front. is that y u didn't get 1?

[Nomar06]

Originally Posted by AznSupastar

how come u didn't need a front camber kit? generally i noticed a lot of ppl with lowered 8th gen civic usually have a noticable negative camber in rear. but not so much in front. is that y u didn't get 1?

I have the ingals front camber kit. I doesnt make much of a difference. Its just a camber bolt. Most peolpe dont use it but for $25 might aswell.

[caveman74]

I have mine dropped on Progress 1.4 & 1.3 and I am showing inside wear. The back is what is bad.