LX/EX front sway bar > Si front sway bar???

[Cookstar]

I saw something about this somewhere else and I thought I would give this topic it's own thread.

I have the Progress rear sway bar and I've read before that upgrading sway bars is not a "bigger is always better" deal. Instead, balance is the key.

Anyway, I believe someone said that you are less likely to get wheelspin with the smaller front bar. Any comments on this or any additional advantages you would see?

[BLU BY U]

cant imagine the ex sway being better than the si sway? but what do i know.

your right about size but the end links and the fact that its hollow or solid make a big difference.

[reaper702]

i believe it is a better fit w/ the thicker rear sway because the ex/lx front bar is thinner and would give it more balance than the stock si frow sway bar. i believe that is why, remember seeing that on a post not too long ago.

[GGLX4me]

Not sure why a sway bar would have anything to do with less wheel spin or getting better traction. A sway bay prevents body roll in cornering

In a rear wheel drive car it may make a different in allowing weight transfer from ft to rear allowing for better traction as the weight moves back on hard excelleration and the ft end comes up .In drag racig you would remove the ft sway bar to allow the rear to squat .You can't do that on a fwd veh as there is nothing to make the ft squat when you accellerate hard as the veh only wants to move backwards like when you step on it and you get pinned backwards in your seat on a high horsepower car

hope that makes sense

On second thought I guess a solid sway bar vs a hollow such as the lx/ex has coul make it slightly harder to move upward but apply more force to keep the susp down .......it woudl be marginal though I would think . I had the si sway bar swap in my lx and never noticed any real difference in traction

[honda93]

Originally Posted by Cookstar

I have the Progress rear sway bar and I've read before that upgrading sway bars is not a "bigger is always better" deal. Instead, balance is the key.

Anyway, I believe someone said that you are less likely to get wheelspin with the smaller front bar. Any comments on this or any additional advantages you would see?

The smaller front bar will help reduce wheelspin on the unloaded inside tire when a lot of power is applied coming out of a tight corner... Picture already doing 35mph in your driveway, as you arc out of it in second gear, throttle to the floor, as is common in many autocross situations.

Most people aren't noticing wheelspin even with the Si front bar installed because they are most likely not driving that hard. Push the car under autocross conditions and this will become apparent.

Anthony "Mario" Crea
NNJR-SCCA

[fa1]

I heard that a bigger rear sway will give you more control when dealing with oversteering, a bigger front sway will make you have less control when understeering, but you need to have balance between the front and the rear. Don't know if this is really true though.

[Cookstar]

Here's a pretty good explanation on how sway bars work:
http://www.houseofthud.com/cartech/swaybars.htm

[Cookstar]

Originally Posted by honda93

The smaller front bar will help reduce wheelspin on the unloaded inside tire when a lot of power is applied coming out of a tight corner... Picture already doing 35mph in your driveway, as you arc out of it in second gear, throttle to the floor, as is common in many autocross situations.

Most people aren't noticing wheelspin even with the Si front bar installed because they are most likely not driving that hard. Push the car under autocross conditions and this will become apparent.

Anthony "Mario" Crea
NNJR-SCCA

Mario, I don't autocross but I've been known to go drive twisty mountain roads for fun. I would guess that a smaller front bar (or less stiff in the case of going from a solid to a hollow bar) would be of some benefit there as well, right? Also, what sway bar combination do you have on your car?

[honda93]

Originally Posted by fa1

I heard that a bigger rear sway will give you more control when dealing with oversteering, a bigger front sway will make you have less control when understeering, but you need to have balance between the front and the rear. Don't know if this is really true though.

Totally opposite.

Here's what's happening people... You run a stiffer swaybar, shock, or spring on the end you want to LOSE traction earlier! The softer the particular end is, the more mechanical grip that end of the car has. My previous Civic, a 1993 DX Coupe, was an autocross beast setup with custom Konis and 600 lb./in. springs all the way around. It had NO front bar, an OEM TypeR LSD and a 22mm rear bar. All four corners had toe-out and the car could rotate on command because it was set up to lose traction at the rear and retain it at the front. That's basically the goal of any FWD car.

I unfortunately cannot do that anymore as I decided, and will remain dedicated to my decision, to keep my 2006 LX Coupe legal within the SCCA's Stock class parameters. As such, I am currently running a bigger, solid 28mm Si Coupe front bar and must keep the rear bar stock and unchanged. A bigger bar up front helps with turn-in, but it can increase understeer unless provisions are made to make the rear stiffer or lose grip sooner. It's quite the balancing act!

The alignment numbers are a secret... But I am trying something for 2007 that may ultimately necessitate a change BACK to the hollow 25.4mm bar that came with the car if inside wheelspin increases to a point that I feel it is hurting my times on course.

That should satiate you guys for a while!

Anthony "Mario" Crea
NNJR-SCCA

[MonkayMan17]

Im getting a EX and im thinking about keeping the stock ex front sway and puting a SI rear sway in. Im getting this car for my daily driver but of course im gonna throw a couple mods at it and i do have some fun in the canyons.
So waht are your thought about that set up honda93?

[honda93]

Originally Posted by MonkayMan17

Im getting a EX and im thinking about keeping the stock ex front sway and puting a SI rear sway in. Im getting this car for my daily driver but of course im gonna throw a couple mods at it and i do have some fun in the canyons.
So waht are your thought about that set up honda93?

OK. Everyone please listen... The type of car I prefer and am comfortable driving may intimidate or even scare some of you. I am not claiming to be the best, but I am probably one of the more experienced drivers on this board. As such, I will only say this and it may sound harsher than I intend but...


(Regarding anything suspension-based: Bars, springs, shocks, etc.)
Set the car up to suit your personal driving level, based on true levels of overall experience and do so based on honest assessment of your capabilities and comfortability behind the wheel.

Not that you have to be a 14 year autocross veteran like me, but going canyon carving on occasion or hearing about autocrossing on the internet doesn't count. That being said, remember, that it only takes one slip-up or moment to ruin a car, yourself, or someone else.

FOR EXAMPLE PLEASE ANSWER...

* How many of you can tell us what lift-throttle oversteer is and how it can be caused?

* How do you correct it when it happens while driving?

*How do you change the setup of the car to minimize this from happening?

Many of you don't realize, for example, that the spring rates offered in lowering kits aren't truly optimal for improved handling, they are chosen to allow the car to sit lower while keeping the shocks from bottoming out, all the while retaining some level of comfort. In most cases, right now, 99% of the lowered Civics out there are running around on OEM dampers. They aren't bad, but not what I'd call ideal for lowering springs. The same is applying to sway bars. The OEM Si 17mm rear bar isn't going to make the car horrible, nor will it make it great; and neither will the Progress 22mm unit for that matter. Much of the balance comes from shock valving and spring rate coupled with alignment. Sway bars are simple and cheap, and yes they work because they are increasing spring rate during cornering, but for most people, the limits to REALLY, TRULY sense the improvements these (or other) components will offer must be tested at an autocross or on a dedicated road course, not a canyon road.

Sorry for the soapbox rant, but questions like this need to be addressed and this board is getting too cluttered with info that isn't forthright or correct. I know the above factors and examples are both because I have experienced it all due to building my old autocross beast from dead stock over a course of 12 years culminating with the new Civic now and keeping it stock because of a choice to run in a particular category/class. Competing in approximately 250 autocrosses and spending lots of money trying different things to extract every last ounce of performance from the suspension will do that to someone.

Anthony "Mario" Crea
NNJR-SCCA

[lowerlevel]

i have a 07 lx with the front si sway and the rear si sway.if i upgraded to the progress rear sway and keeping the front si sway in place will it give me any better performance in hard driving?

[honda93]

Originally Posted by lowerlevel

i have a 07 lx with the front si sway and the rear si sway.if i upgraded to the progress rear sway and keeping the front si sway in place will it give me any better performance in hard driving?

Technically, yes.

[DSchrag]

Okay, how then does something like the 4-point underbrace come into play here? Does it end up just hurting cornering ability?

[CZ-75]

Originally Posted by honda93

FOR EXAMPLE PLEASE ANSWER...

* How many of you can tell us what lift-throttle oversteer is and how it can be caused?

* How do you correct it when it happens while driving?

*How do you change the setup of the car to minimize this from happening?

- The ass-end of the car coming around because the driver got off the gas and unloaded the weight from the rear wheels to the front in a turn.

- Back on the gas? Countersteer?

- I'd like to know.

Since you've spent 14 years auto-Xing, do you have any favorite websites or books you'd recommend on vehicle handling?

[honda93]

Originally Posted by DSchrag

Okay, how then does something like the 4-point underbrace come into play here? Does it end up just hurting cornering ability?

It comes into play by people giving vendors a lot of money for parts that don't do anything on a competent chassis designed and tested by talented engineers and supercomputers.

Anthony "Mario" Crea
NNJR-SCCA

[honda93]

Originally Posted by CZ-75

- The ass-end of the car coming around because the driver got off the gas and unloaded the weight from the rear wheels to the front in a turn.

- Back on the gas? Countersteer?

- I'd like to know.

Since you've spent 14 years auto-Xing, do you have any favorite websites or books you'd recommend on vehicle handling?

Good deal. You are correct in the definition and how it would be dealt with when a FWD car oversteers... You keep feeding throttle while countersteering. If done right, you drive out of the skid.

As for books on handling or autocrossing. Carrol Smith has written REAL good stuff, otherwise, be observant and experiment... Add to that lots of seat time.

Anthony "Mario" Crea
NNJR-SCCA

[CZ-75]

Originally Posted by honda93

Good deal. You are correct in the definition and how it would be dealt with when a FWD car oversteers... You keep feeding throttle while countersteering. If done right, you drive out of the skid.

As for books on handling or autocrossing. Carrol Smith has written REAL good stuff, otherwise, be observant and experiment... Add to that lots of seat time.

Anthony "Mario" Crea
NNJR-SCCA

Thanks. I'm somewhat familiar with the late Carrol Smith, but I haven't read more than an article or two authored by him. I guess I'll check Amazon for titles by him.