Coilovers... what you're actually getting

[mdwalsh]

coilovers IMO are overrated. youre paying how much money for what? ok so heres my take (prices from CorSport)
BC N+ coilover $1100
Skunk 2 Pro C coilovers $1445

so what are you getting?
well all mass produced coilovers now a-days have two sets of ride height adjustment, one is usually labeled as the "preload" adjustment and one as the height adjustment.... do you know why?...... lets look at a high end coilover (this is a KW/RCE coilover set-up for a WRX)

notice there is only one adjustment? these are made for that car BY APPLICATION, most mass produced coilovers are all the same damping body and a different bottom mount so that they can go on hundreds of applications... meaning the coilovers you bought are probably the same dampening body as every other application on that list. this means not much care is put into what those dampening values actually mean. this is a reason why few companys put out there shock dyno charts, because the public would see how useless that dial on top is that they charge so much for. not to mention the dial up top adjusts compression which does almost nothing for handling, rebound is the main contributer to handling ability. suspension height and preload being on different parts of the shock is bad. you get the guy that pumps his preload all the way to the top and his height all the way to the bottom, now hes scraping all the time and cant figure out why, his springs arent in the range that can support the weight plus the bumps because of his skewed preload/height misconception.

"Vehicle ride height is adjusted independently of spring pre-load. With other alternatives available on the market today, vehicle ride height is adjusted by reducing or increasing the preload on the coil spring. This primitive methold leads to inconsistent spring rates that are dependent upon the vehicle ride height. With any of the Buddy Club suspension components, including the N+ SPEC, vehicle ride height is independent of spring pre-load. This method ensures that the spring rate is always consistent, no matter how high or low your car is. In addition, it ensures that the spring is always properly positioned onto the strut and effectively reduces miscellaneous and unnessary noise. "

this is in the description for the BC coilovers... "leads to inconsistent spring rates that are dependent on the vehicle ride height" this statement cracks me up, even by separating them into separate adjustments the rate is still dependent on vehicle ride height. the spring rate is linear in either respect, the person that wrote that has fooled many people into believing these misconceptions.

"Dampening settings ranges from hard (+4kg/mm) to soft (-4kg/mm)."

then in the same ad for BC coilovers they state the "dampening range" yet they give stiffness rates..dampening is not a sprung rate, it is not accounted for in the wheel rate as this might suggest, dampening is a rate of speed NOT a stiffness


so youre also getting some set of springs, lets take a look

Skunk2 Pro-C- 12k(F)/10k(R)

Now lets analyze this real quick. just looking at those thats 670lbs up front and 560lbs in the rear.... hmm... member we talked about wheel rates? and i and brought up something about how different suspension geometries made a difference in the wheel rate? well the civic's rear suspension's motion ratio is 1/3. now member i talked about making the back end more responsive by increasing the wheel rate? well now youre going to have to have a really stiff sway bar to get that wheel rate back up to where you need it. those spring rates almost look reversed to me. but hey, they are mass produced dampers so it might have something to do with it.

heres my take. i plan on going with a suspension set-up something along the lines of a double adjustable koni shock, and some kind of lowering spring. koni makes some of the best shocks in the world. and being able to adjust the damping rates individually is pretty key, i want to find one of the tallest stiffest springs i can. i dont need ride high adjustability, its just not very key, corner balancing is great, but its expensive and time consuming and if you have something in the car with you its all off, so my advice is find a tall, stiff spring, and put a good shock in place like konis, even the single adjustable is excellent... koni is one of the few shock companys that has their sport shocks adjusting rebound
.
im probably only going to spend 900-1000 on what i want. and if i need more adjustability i can always go with a GC coilover set-up. and still spend less than those skunk2's.

im not trying to knock them and saying you shouldnt buy them, im trying to just make sure that you knew what you were getting and why some of the design elements of an off the shelf coilover dont fit very many peoples needs. if all youre doing is some back road bombing id look into a good damper/spring combo, hell the HFP suspension and a good alignment is prolly good for most people. but if you want something more this looks like a good place to start- (all prices from CorSport)

Koni Inserts- $595
Progress Springs- $175
Progress Rear Sway Bar- $159
SPC Camber Arms w/ Front Camber Bolts- $305

total- $1234

youve spent barely more than the BC's and less than the S2's but you have a much better damper than either, stiff springs with a reasonable but not overly lowered drop, you are also getting a rear sway bar, and everything youd need to perform an alignment, which you would need with either of those coilovers, making that price way cheaper than both. this set-up wouldnt ride very bad, wouldnt bottom out everywhere, and still is low enough to satisfy most peoples want to look good and best of all it would probably out handle both... but you might have other wants, i dont see a need for height adjustment, seriously ask yourself how many times are you going to touch them? if its less than twice then coilovers probably arent for you, if you arent ready to spend 2k+ on coilovers that actually perform then coilovers arent for you, but hey all i care about is going around corners faster than other people

for those of you that read my stuff a few weeks ago this is going to sound quite familiar i took most of it from there... i just cant stand all these threads that popping up with everyone in it saying buy coilovers to some guy that just wants to get rid of his wheel gap and better his handling.

Matt

[wowwitsgau]

Good post-- however, I'd like you to clear up a few things. How is ride height adjustment independent of spring load a bad thing? It makes sense to me that if you have only one method of adjustment you will be changing the spring rates while you change the ride height, because you will be either compressing or stretching out the spring while you do so. Also, on the Pro-C's you can get custom springs; most people get something around the ranges of 10-12k in front and 14-16k in back to achieve that rotation you are talking about.

What you mentioned about off the shelf coilovers being the same damping body on all applications, is what suspension gurus like sirbelch, highrev1, and moose have been saying all along lol.

[VanSi07]

People buy coils mostly to slam it yo. Haha.

The Sk2s have spring rates for the street. Swap those 12k for some 18ks and you're ready for a proper rate for some rotation.

[chunky]

Originally Posted by wowwitsgau

Good post-- however, I'd like you to clear up a few things. How is ride height adjustment independent of spring load a bad thing? It makes sense to me that if you have only one method of adjustment you will be changing the spring rates while you change the ride height, because you will be either compressing or stretching out the spring while you do so.

He made the point that the springs were linear.

[mdwalsh]

Originally Posted by wowwitsgau

Good post-- however, I'd like you to clear up a few things. How is ride height adjustment independent of spring load a bad thing? It makes sense to me that if you have only one method of adjustment you will be changing the spring rates while you change the ride height, because you will be either compressing or stretching out the spring while you do so. Also, on the Pro-C's you can get custom springs; most people get something around the ranges of 10-12k in front and 14-16k in back to achieve that rotation you are talking about.

What you mentioned about off the shelf coilovers being the same damping body on all applications, is what suspension gurus like sirbelch, highrev1, and moose have been saying all along lol.

i guess i worded that first bit wrong... ride adjustment and preload separately are bad if you dont know how to adjust them.. for the most part people seem to crank the preload all the way up then put the ride height all the way down. thinking that this is how they can be low and still handle but its simply not the case. the real reason there are two adjustments is simply a design comprimise of being able to make money...

[trickyazn]

Well I suppose if you would like to rant about OTS coilovers inability to please you with their incorrect information, let ME correct all of your false information.

Almost all OTS coilovers do not change compression, its either REBOUND only or rebound/compression on the same knob.

Ride height adjustability = corner balance. All track cars are corner balanced. Sure if you drive on the street it doesn't matter much but the fact that you said you want to take corners quickly doesn't help that you can't corner balance at all.

Konis ARE good dampers but if you want a real handling car, OTS springs will not cut it. Damper > Spring but if you are going d/a you might as well run a 700lb spring in the rear. Remember motion ratio you mentioned earlier? Well you contradicted yourself with cheap progress springs since they are what? 200lb springs?

BTW progress springs are crap, I installed these on a customers car and the top coil would not fit into the stock top hat. I called Progress and they said to not attach it to the top hat. What the hell is this? If you are going with koni d/a's, buy Hypercoil, Eibach or even Swift springs.

MOST OTS coilovers are NOT entry level track coilovers. Your assumption is TERRIBLY flawed. These coilovers have one thing in mind, increase handling capabilities with full ride height control. Bashing on coilovers just for that main fact does nothing but hurt your credibility. If they come with soft springs like 8k/6k then guess what? Its probably marketed to people who DD their car, NOT track their car. Most coilovers DO well at the track, Pro-C's for example have very decent shock dynos for their rear shocks (rear is more important than front). If I were you I wouldn't assume Pro-C's are a lesser alternative than your Koni's. BTW if you didn't know, front AND rear springs are linear for Pro-C's AND Skunk2 offers 14k or 18k rear spring upgrade for those who do want them. Hows that for motion ratio?

Koni's are not just God's answer to your handling abilities, they offer horrible camber adjustment, actually.. they offer ZERO. Most decent coilovers offer camber plates, for example I can run -4 front camber on my coilover, hows that for adjustability? Sure you can use camber BOLTS, but they do slip over time and not recommended for use at the track just for that sole reason.

Also, full threaded shock bodies are NOT cheap. A slight advantage with them is that you can lower the car, not reduce shock travel, use the preload to adjust corner balance and have your roll center corrected with lengthened ball joints.

And heres another false info, BC =/= Buddy Club. BC is a DIFFERENT company. Assuming you took the description from Buddyclub since it mentions its own name there, you shouldn't fool people with the commonly known fact that they are two different companies.

You do realize descriptions sell the product right? In an ad for a OTS mass produced coilover are you SERIOUSLY going to elaborate on dampening rate from -4kg to +4kg? Most people out there do NOT know the difference. Most people refer the dampening from for example 1-15 as how harsh it is, not the dampening.

Why do you mention that KW's are a high end coilover? Its not. Its an ENTRY level track coilover with a lot of R&D. Its up there with Tein SRC and some other 2 or 3 way adjustabile coilovers from other companies. Real high end coilovers are JRZ, Ohlins, Motons etc.

Corsport is overpriced.. period. If you want real prices you do your research and you'll see the prices of Pro-C's or Buddyclub N+'s are nowhere near that price brand new.

Lastly, if you are going to whine about forum members wanting to lower their car with a slight increase in handling.. then take it elsewhere. You obviously don't know much about what you are talking about or else the stuff i mentioned above would of been correct in the first place. You can't blame CIVIC owners for doing what they do, its not a misconception that coilovers are more popular than damper/spring combos, its just a better deal for a budget vehicle.

[mdwalsh]

i appreciate that someone else is correcting me.. ive been into civic's since thanksgiving so im still learning... BTW the coilover i showed is a KW body with RCE internals, its probably one of the best coilovers on the market short of motons in the WRX world. my last car was an 04 WRX. you come off a bit harsh, i was never trying to be harsh. i simply want to know why it just seems like everyones solution to making a civic handle is to just bolt a set of coilovers when you can do it cheaper with a good spring damper set-up

Matt

[trickyazn]

True that Koni dampers are superior to most coilover OTS dampening but the truth of the matter is, a very small percentage of civic owners track their car. Even less can drive the car at their handling limit.

I wasn't trying to be harsh, I generally use capital letter words in my essays to emphasize. Sorry I didn't mean to.

OTS Coilovers only offer marginal increase in performance w/ ride height control, I'd say a good 95% of Civic owners want just that and nothing more.

[mdwalsh]

Originally Posted by trickyazn

True that Koni dampers are superior to most coilover OTS dampening but the truth of the matter is, a very small percentage of civic owners track their car. Even less can drive the car at their handling limit.

I wasn't trying to be harsh, I generally use capital letter words in my essays to emphasize. Sorry I didn't mean to.

OTS Coilovers only offer marginal increase in performance w/ ride height control, I'd say a good 95% of Civic owners want just that and nothing more.

i can agree with that haha.

Matt

[Ayodog]

I wants more handling. But my mindset is different then the 95% of civic drivers ha


Custom swifts + koni adjustable and adjustable top hats in a year or two for me! ( i can't make full use of what the pro-c coils offer ne ways )

For track use, we need alot of camber as well which i found out. Found a slight amount of chunking on my outside front tires after one track day. Running -2 camber. Or more positive caster ierno. but the -1.5 or so from camber bolts definitely can't cut it.

[asm 06sedan]

So trickyazn since its seems you know what you are talking about what would you suggest for those people who just want to lower their car a bit but dont want to break the bank?
Get some springs that drop about 1-1.2 inch, put them on their stock shocks, get some camber arms, bolts (if needed) and call it a day?

[trickyazn]

Rory, I know a company making pillow ball mounts with any Koni (d/a or single) with swift springs and Aurora bearings. I heard he also made mounts where you can run 10+ width front rims with almost 0 camber.

[Ayodog]

wtf o_O.

telling me to start saving right now ? ha

[trickyazn]

Start saving

[Ayodog]

after my wheels and spherical bushings lol. Err and tires. F*ck

[trickyazn]

=O spherical bushings? Call me when you install them. I want to watch/help.

I might know of a tire place too.

[invinceible]

Originally Posted by trickyazn

=O spherical bushings? Call me when you install them. I want to watch/help.

I might know of a tire place too.

I want in on this adventure.

[low&slow]

i bought buddy clubs to slam my Si

[redsled]

mdwalsh, thanks for shining some light on a subject that can be confusing to a lot of us.

Tricky, thanks for chiming in. Your posts and DIY's help me with most of my decisions on mods to my car (ehh...minus the Rota's...) But seriously, the "harshness" just makes for some entertainment.

[mdwalsh]

Originally Posted by trickyazn

Rory, I know a company making pillow ball mounts with any Koni (d/a or single) with swift springs and Aurora bearings. I heard he also made mounts where you can run 10+ width front rims with almost 0 camber.

this sounds intriguing.... a lil more info maybe?

Matt