New to the Forum

[Curt]

New to this Forum, but several decades of serious gearhead experience under my belt.
So having said that, I had the wisdom to see the "potential" of the 8th Gen Civic and picked up a really cherry (that's an expression from a long time ago for all you youngsters) 2008 Sedan Si in TW from Mr. DB2, and have a few questions that lack exact, definitive answers to. But I'm sure there's the experience and expertise out there to keep me on track.
My goal is to achieve handling on par with the recent BMW M3 sedans (and please don't get me going about FWD vs RWD). I guess the best way to frame my question is this: on a scale of 1 to 10, if you place the basic 8th Gen Civic Sedan at a 1, and place a serious autoX, amateur road race set-up at a 10, where would you place the handling of the Sedan Si, and where would you place the 2008 Mugen Sedan Si on that scale (and I realize in asking that question very few of you have actually driven all 4 of these setups).
Having posed that question, then my next question would be what set of comprehensively integrated suspension components would bring the Sedan Si up about 10-15% "tighter" than the Mugen?
I'm too old to risk the fillings coming out of my teeth, but betwen shocks, springs, sway bars, bushings, end links, etc. (did I leave anything out), oh yes, and chassis bracing where's it's appropriate and beneficial, what's going to result in a taught setup that responds to the road? I'm currently running a Toyota MR2 Spyder with some serious money put into chassis bracing, wheels, tires, bushings, endlinks and - quite importantly - a TRD designed sway bar, shock and spring combo setup that actually works as a comprehensive package. I've been around long enough to know that when you shoot darts at picking those components separately, you seldom get lucky enough to end up with a well-integrated solution. And few of us are experienced and knowledgable enough in such a situation to know exactly which of those specific components is/are too little or too much to achieve a good balance. And that sort of a hit-or-miss propostition gets frustrating and expensive in a hurry (if you know what I mean).
So, fire away, guys, and I'm glad to be aboard and look forward to your input.
Curta Proud Veteran of the American Armed Forces
PS: I'm a little reluctant at this point in my Honda experience to pose this question to any of the vendors, as they have -shall we just call it - certain profit-mofivation biases!

[Zeuceone]

Welcome to the site!


braces dont do much if anything for this car.

[GeezerSi]

Welcome -> 8th

There's a lot of information on here. Search away.

[Curt]

Originally Posted by GeezerSi

Welcome -> 8th

There's a lot of information on here. Search away.

That's the reason I framed my question in specific terms, so as to avoid wasting my time with all kinds of disassociated and irrelevant input.
But thanks for the suggestion anyway.

[P1ng]

Originally Posted by Curt

That's the reason I framed my question in specific terms, so as to avoid wasting my time with all kinds of disassociated and irrelevant input.
But thanks for the suggestion anyway.

yeah.. welcome to 8thcivic

[Sirbelch]

Are you looking for something on par with your MR2s, in terms of handling? Bushings and inlinks are quite the serious suspension mod.

I've never driven a base civic, but I have driven a stock Si, and am on my 3rd aftermarket suspension. The one I am on now was designed with autox in mind, and it rides rough, but handles soooooo well. The stock Si has some good amount of rotation in it. I think the winner in the national GS autox class was an Si.

Our cars have a really stiff chassis and bracing is basically a waste of money. You are going to read a lot of threads to the contrary, but they really don't know what they are talking about. The only brace that might be worth is is the under body H brace. Any brace that has a hinge, is gong to loosen over time and not do its job.

From your post, you already sound like you know what to do, you just need sugestions for parts. Was the suspension for the MR2s a TRD suspension? If that is the case, maybe you should look into the HFP suspension. No one knows the specs of it, but from what I have read, its about 15% stiffer than a stock Si. Mugen also makes a suspension for the Si. Its not the same one on the Mugen Si, but a little more handling orientated. Its specs are closer to that of the JDM Civic Type R. If you want more still, I would say call Redshift Motorsports. They use Koni shocks and the stock front housing. They use a more secure process for installing the front inserts than the OTS konis. Also, you can get coilover versions to adjust ride height and you can pick custom spring rates.

[SIN]

i would rank seat time as the best mod possible for faster and consistent times.
next would probably be tires and alignment.

to tell you the truth, a good autocross set up is usually going to be too twitchy for a road race/track set up.
you should first ask yourself what are you goals. (is this car DD/weekend auto-x? dedicated track? etc)
once you know that, you can start to think about mods.

[Curt]

Sirbelch, thanks for the extensive reply. In my reference to the BMW M3, anyone who's driven one senses a certain "taughtness" to the suspension, not harsh and not soft, but tight and very responsive. That's generally speaking what I'm looking for, but for those who want more, the aftermarket offers lots of options for those BMW owner as well.
Anyone who's spent time (and $$$) playing around with their suspension options has come to understand that the shocks, springs and sway bars determine the basic handling characteristics of any car, and if you don't start with a combination that works together in a complementary way, most anything else you try to do is sort of like trying to fix a cut with a Band Aid when you should have gotten stitches. End links, harder bushings, etc. can all add to the exactness of chrispness of that shock/spring/sway package. And the choice of tires can either add to or detract from how well that shock/spring/sway package works. And what I've come to appreciate and many never do is that a great after market seat does wonders for the driver's ability to be "at one" and in touch with the entire combination of pieces and parts built into any car.
Having said all of that, yes, my MR2 Spyder's suspension package was engineered by TRD and includes that shock/spring/sway package I was referring to. There were lots of options with coil-overs, larger adjustable sways, and multi-way adjustable shocks, all of which can totally screw up things for all but the most knowledgable when it comes to getting them all balanced and working together in a complementary way. For my Civic Sedan Si (I guess to sound like I'm getting with the program it's a FA5) I don't plan to autox or track the car (those days are long since past), but I want a suspension setup that if I wanted to jump out onto an autox course, while I might not come home with any prize, I wouldn't embarass myself either.
Sirbelch, you stated that, ".......maybe you should look into the HFP suspension. No one knows the specs of it, but from what I have read, its about 15% stiffer than a stock Si. Mugen also makes a suspension for the Si. Its not the same one on the Mugen Si, but a little more handling orientated." This sounds like the direction I want to be going in. Do any of you guys have a little more information/specifics on these in terms of the shock, spring and sway bar differences they have versus the Si?
Thanks, all.

[SIN]

for mainly DD, i would start with a good alignment (-1.5f*/-1r*, zero toe all around), tires, and sway bars.

[Sirbelch]

Ohhhhh, I see what you are looking for.

Aki has the Mugen SS suspension I am talking about. It's his dd and he said that it passes the mom test in terms of ride. He likes the added rotaton. Thing is, the SS is about $1600 new and the hfp is $600 new. There are no packages that include springs, shocks, sways for our car. So, it's piece meal for us. You don't need a front sway bar anyway, the stock one is too big as is. We have be biggest front bar of ANY 8th gen civic on the planet.

I'm saying this assuming you know the wheel tire package is the most important suspension mod. I run 17x8 +45 with 235/40/17 tires. They are 15 lbs per wheel, 7 lbs lighter than a stock wheel. It's the best mod I have ever got.

Our cars LOVE negative camber in the front. They just can't get enough. Don't worry about tire wear, if you drive with spirit on a weekly basis, you'll be fine.

Was your MR2s a dd? Or just a weekend toy? How did it ride? Is that wan you are looking for?

[Curt]

For Sirbelch:
No, the Spyder's not my dd, just a sunny day, top down, weekend toy for this old boy. But at 2100 lbs and with about 375 HP at the crank from a Rotrex SC, toys don't come much better. For the wheels & tires I have SSR Comp C 16's and 17's shod with Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-D3's and they've outstanding for what this car's used for. The only downside is that with staggered front/rear sizes and directional tires, any sort of "normal" tire rotation is out of the question.
My current dd (to be replaced by the FA5) is a 96 Maxima SE I bought new, and has Eibach Progressive/lowering springs, Tokico Illumina shock/struts, Stillen rear sway bar, 17x8 & 9 wheels shot with Bridgestone Potenza RE750's, about 240 HP at the crank and a factory variable LSD 5-speed (plus a long list of other "performance-oriented" add-ons), it's pretty close to the definition of a Japanese FWD equivalent version of the BMW 540i.
Following your suggestions I've been doing a lot of surfing on this site (as well as others) and I'm zeroing in on the FHP suspension package (CollegeHills is currently discounting them pretty heavily at $450) and the Progress rear sway bar. If that turns out to be a little too tail happy I'll do as I've done with the Maxima and go with a little wider tire in the rear (it has 205/50ZR17 and 245/40ZR17). I smiled when I read, "You don't need a front sway bar anyway, the stock one is too big as is. We have be biggest front bar of ANY 8th gen civic on the planet." From my experience, the design of most cars is a tug of war among the engineer(enthusiasts), the accounts(penny-pinchers) and the lawyers(who can't lose a case they never have to defend), and the result is typically heavy understeer (i.e., a large front sway bar).
I appreciate the perceptive insight into my questions and goals. Thanks.