supercharger aftercooler chat thread

[bulliedog]

Originally Posted by 08Sivic

That's what I was thinking also. Seems like if the heat exchanger was larger, therefore taking the fluid a bit longer to pass through, further cooling it, but also having a very strong pump to circulate quicker through the AC, would be the optimal setup. But then you could also go so many directions with efficiency of the hex, efficiency of the AC core, pump speed and efficiency, etc etc. I think I may contact a few companies who do this kind of research all the time. Kenne Bell, Whipple, Afco, and some others and see what their take is on the issues of hex and AC core size.

What would be baller is to some how fab the case to be liquid cooled like the Kenne Bell design. Those blowers are cold and have the lowest IAT's of any blower I've ever seen or researched.

Actually the Kenny Bell TS with the liquid cooled setup still has more heat issues then the Whipple TS designed blowers I believe. Check out the new line of the Whipples to check efficiency.

[jmercado567]

Originally Posted by 08Sivic

Very useful and interesting thread. Not as much data as I'd like to see, but good discussion.

I have ran a pullied (3.0 BP 6.37 CP) CT m62 with the "Stage 2" Merc kit and a venom cooler (which I didnt see much help from). I dont really like to use that data too much because, as some of you know, my blower basically emploded. lol I had major bearing failure and a lot of rotor to case contact for quite some time, that only got worse. I was running the bosch pump along with the normal hex that comes with the Merc kits. One example of my temps (before my bearing problem really showed itself) was low 100*'s cruising (around 25-30* above ambient) peaked as high as 175* at the top of a 3rd gear pull, and in 15 sec my temps were back down around 115* and in less than 30 sec I was back down to my cruising temp of low 100*'s. This was a full 2000rpm-8600rpm pull. This is just mere factual data I'm throwing into the mix.

On a side note, one thing that I think was a great idea on IMT's part was the material their spacer is made out of. It only stands to reason that the heat is coming from the blower case itself, and any heat that can be kept out of the manifold (so cooled air is not re-heated) is a plus.

Now my thoughts and ideas to bring temps down and battle heat. Since all of us use our cars for either DD or track use (or both), I have been doing some research on the use of a fan behind the hex. If the car is used for DD, you see an increase in temps while sitting at a stop light or stuck in traffic. Then it takes a few seconds or a even a few minutes to get the air moving back across the hex to get the temps back down. Same with using the car at the track. While in the staging lanes, I know the one time I ran my aftercooled setup at the track, I couldnt get the temps down until I was coasting at the end of the track because of the heat built up from sitting in the staging lanes and only got hotter as I ran the car down the track. A small fan or two would keep air moving across the hex in these times when air movement is minimal to none. One of the big upgrades for Mustang guys and Lightning guys is an "Afco" dual fan hex. Its a great design and I really think the utilization of those fans really helps to keep the temps down. I really think the design, size, capacity, etc of the hex could use some more research and testing since that is where the coolant is cooled. The cooler the coolant exiting the hex is, the cooler the air charge entering the motor is.

Once I get my new blower setup running and tuned, I will be doing a few tests with a fan mounted behind the hex. Another test I want to do is a back to back comparison of the bosch pump to the johnson pump to see if either one helps or hurts and if so, exactly how much (if any). I may also try to do a few tests with the mounting of the pump and see if that helps or hurts in any way.

(Sorry for the miniature novel)

Holy Novel! ha ha.

170F temps on your high psi heat setup at top rpm of gear is actually quite normal on a hot day and not bad if you have noticed what others are stating. We have some people on the forums reaching as hight as 180's, 190's and 200's even with the insulation. The insulation does help slow down heat soak but eventually it heats up too.

The blower at that rpm generally is creating temps of over 230 to 240+F at peak depending on the blower health of bearings oil, etc.

I don't have expensive datalogers to prove this but I have sensors post blower, post core and intake runner. you would be surprised at how different the temperature is coming out the core vs at the runner.

Even the snout case area is hotter than the blower casing.

I am just very busy to compile this to understandable terms with people and just use the data to improve things. It takes a lot of time to do this and then trying to explain without biasing issues.

Originally Posted by mike_si_29

Good info, thanks for sharing man. I did look into fans a while back after I saw that temps in AC system rises in traffic. I am sure at the track its even worse if you are waiting in line. I looked at all kinds of slim 6" fans. I didnt want to block the bottom of the HX since at 45+ mph it will become a restriction (according to fan CFM and my calcs lol).

Also, another thing to look at is available space in HX area. It maybe increased by removing crush beam but i didnt want to take it out completely. Space betweein HX and A/C is only about 1". I decided to put fan infront of the HX since fan is reversable and can be make to either pull or push air. I wired it to the same circuit as AC pump so its always on. I havent tested AC fluid temps after that but I can feel some air moving when parked. Cant say if it works or doesnt without data. I hope it does lol. Fan isnt noticable from outside. I just though I will post what I found. Someone might come up with the better solution. I am all for it. Here are a couple of pics.

image


image

Ahhh the fan testing... Mike, nice work man and sorry to see your crash bar cut like that.

What me and another friend found with the fan is that it acually creates a vortex inside the bumper area cavity. It may help a liitle but what happens is that the hot air and fan are now acting like a convection oven while staged. It does work a little bit because of the air flow but was not enough to make a meaningful difference. Project scrapped.

On cars with fully sealed engine bays, the best thing found is keeping the car running so that things do not heat soak so much on stock cars without prover engine bay air vents etc.

You are better off letting the car cool down naturally and reach its 180's temp and cool air being fed to the manifold than turning off for 5 minutes only to turn on again and get on line with eveything heat soaked.

Run your OEM fans. They will do a much better job by removing heat from your engine radiator towards the engine bay instead of letting the radiator heat up and create an oven effect that heats up the entire front area.

This strong air flow created by the fans is on a nice OEM shroud and will create a nice air flow thru the HE. If you notice the Civic even has plastic covers around the OEM radiator to keep recirculation to a minimum. Pretty neat right?

Hope this helps guys. I

Originally Posted by PainIs4ThaWeak

Didn't someone (Jose?) mention earlier in this thread to lower the ECT fan "turn on" value in FP to help combat the temperatures seen on track?

To me, that sounds feasible, and less of a PITA than cutting the crash bar.

Sometimes, i feel like noise.... glad to see someone read it. lol Thanks.

[jmercado567]

cool experiment for you all with IAT sensors at the runners.

(If you have a well sealed manifold to head)

Shield your Iat sensor with small plastic wrap.
With car fully preheated, now spray room temp water on your runner area only. do not spray the blower or any other components.
Check your idle temps and smile.
This should help you see how important manifold cooling and isolation from engine head is.

One more thing... If you detect a vacuum leak during this procedure, please stop!! and fix it.

[jmercado567]

Additional info on the fans.

If you can get a really efficient HE that would fit under your bumper bar with fans behind it pulling air that would be ideal. this way mostly fresh air is being fed to the heat exchanger when doing so.

Mike you are half way there.. mind as well cut the rest of the bumper bar and move the HE forward and put a large fan behind it. Just thinking out loud. not sure if its possible with the other contours of the bumper. Also, not sure how much better it will work. Just a thought when looking at your picture.

[08Sivic]

Originally Posted by jmercado567

Holy Novel! ha ha.

170F temps on your high psi heat setup at top rpm of gear is actually quite normal on a hot day and not bad if you have noticed what others are stating. We have some people on the forums reaching as hight as 180's, 190's and 200's even with the insulation. The insulation does help slow down heat soak but eventually it heats up too.

The blower at that rpm generally is creating temps of over 230 to 240+F at peak depending on the blower health of bearings oil, etc.

I don't have expensive datalogers to prove this but I have sensors post blower, post core and intake runner. you would be surprised at how different the temperature is coming out the core vs at the runner.

Even the snout case area is hotter than the blower casing.

I am just very busy to compile this to understandable terms with people and just use the data to improve things. It takes a lot of time to do this and then trying to explain without biasing issues.


Sometimes, i feel like noise.... glad to see someone read it. lol Thanks.

Yeah Jose, we have talked about how well my temps stayed down considering the setup I had then. I was very pleased with them. Thats the whole reason I threw them in the mix. Who knows if my bearing failure was affecting temps at the time of that log, but based on what magnuson told me, my blower had been failing for a while, it just went un-noticed until it was too late. So who knows, the IAT's could have been even lower. I wasnt trying to bad mouth you or talk IMT up, I just think the material of the spacer helps with heat transfer, just like the thermal gaskets used for the manifold and TB's.

I read that and wasn't ignoring it, but I am talking about a little bit different setup concerning the fans. Idk why the attitude man, I'm just trying to throw new ideas out.

[JDM_DOHC_SiR]

[bulliedog]

Watcha reading Dave?

[jmercado567]

Originally Posted by 08Sivic

Yeah Jose, we have talked about how well my temps stayed down considering the setup I had then. I was very pleased with them. Thats the whole reason I threw them in the mix. Who knows if my bearing failure was affecting temps at the time of that log, but based on what magnuson told me, my blower had been failing for a while, it just went un-noticed until it was too late. So who knows, the IAT's could have been even lower. I wasnt trying to bad mouth you or talk IMT up, I just think the material of the spacer helps with heat transfer, just like the thermal gaskets used for the manifold and TB's.

I read that and wasn't ignoring it, but I am talking about a little bit different setup concerning the fans. Idk why the attitude man, I'm just trying to throw new ideas out.

I suck at tone when I type( i dont get out often and sound too serious) lol.
I took it very well and was pleased to hear this. thanks bro.

I should keep my whining to my self. lol Sorry

No attitude at all.. I truly truly truly appologize for the wrong way it came out.

[08Sivic]

No problem, just making sure man. We've talked several times and you know I would never say anything out of the way or read over your comments.

Ok, back to topic. Ill be making some phone calls this morning. I'll let you guys know what I can find out from some of the big names in the SC'd world.

[mike_si_29]

I am super busy today at work but i will try to post some data I got. I know there is a theread about blower/manifold insulating spacer. There is data that shows blower and ac coolant reduction temps. I do have a graph with blower, snout and ambient temps. I am no tsure it was even close to 200F but I will have to check. Its posted somewhere as well. Fan I will leave as is. Crash bar is pretty cheap so cutting it wasnt a big deal. Also, there is a coolant bypass thread with IMT 1/4 gasket that reduced heatsoaked. I posted graphs there as well. I will try to combine everything and post it later on for discussion.

[JDM_DOHC_SiR]

Thanks Mike.... any data would be great..

[jmercado567]

Dave, time to ask you. You have been running the car with the bigger capacity HE. How are your temps with your current setup?

You have datalogs from tuning so you have data....

[bulliedog]

[K20Z3allmotor]

Originally Posted by mike_si_29

I am super busy today at work but i will try to post some data I got. I know there is a theread about blower/manifold insulating spacer. There is data that shows blower and ac coolant reduction temps. I do have a graph with blower, snout and ambient temps. I am no tsure it was even close to 200F but I will have to check. Its posted somewhere as well. Fan I will leave as is. Crash bar is pretty cheap so cutting it wasnt a big deal. Also, there is a coolant bypass thread with IMT 1/4 gasket that reduced heatsoaked. I posted graphs there as well. I will try to combine everything and post it later on for discussion.

this mod is great for reducing the heat soak on any set up, SC, NA, or turbo. plus no more draining coolant for manifold removal

[asdf]

Originally Posted by K20Z3allmotor

this mod is great for reducing the heat soak on any set up, SC, NA, or turbo. plus no more draining coolant for manifold removal

image

More info or thread on this mod?

[rosshh]

Interesting place for the ground... has that caused you any issues?

Originally Posted by K20Z3allmotor

this mod is great for reducing the heat soak on any set up, SC, NA, or turbo. plus no more draining coolant for manifold removal

image

[VitViper]

Originally Posted by K20Z3allmotor

this mod is great for reducing the heat soak on any set up, SC, NA, or turbo. plus no more draining coolant for manifold removal

image

You want to burn out a flashpro don't ya?

[snizzletoff]

Originally Posted by rosshh

Interesting place for the ground... has that caused you any issues?

You should move the ground to the head its on hondata's website

Sent from my EVO 3D with Tapatalk 2

[K20Z3allmotor]

Originally Posted by asdf

More info or thread on this mod?

mike_29_si made a thread about it and i have alot of pics of it on my build thread.

[K20Z3allmotor]

Originally Posted by VitViper

You want to burn out a flashpro don't ya?

thats a myth, i never relocate the ground. never had a problem. relocate it to the tower if you want to hack up the harness