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Old 11-20-2012, 04:36 PM   #221 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by mike_si_29 View Post
Yeah, I read somewhere it should be about 4-5 gpm but I might be wrong. Too slow is the enemy for sure. I wanna find some good reference though. It might be useful to look into it.
You know when I added my Whipple I added the Johnson pump. Don't know if it is the Whipple or the pump or both together but my Iat's are lower with this set up. System seems to be more efficient moving way more air.
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:48 PM   #222 (permalink)
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The Johnson pump is a really nice upgrade that does flow a little bit more than the Bosch... but I don;t know if the $$$ ammount that the Johnson costs is worth it.. ... I just know that I like the smaller design of it and it's a bit quieter as well
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Old 11-20-2012, 05:06 PM   #223 (permalink)
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This thread is very entertaining for me LOL!! I like what I'm reading
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Old 11-20-2012, 05:36 PM   #224 (permalink)
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You know when I added my Whipple I added the Johnson pump. Don't know if it is the Whipple or the pump or both together but my Iat's are lower with this set up. System seems to be more efficient moving way more air.
I think Whipple doesnt heat up air that much compare to roots type. "The Whipple twin-screw supercharger is actually a compressor, which means it compresses air internally as well as compressing it in the manifold. Because the screw compressor compress’s the air inside the case, air enters into the pressurized environment with very little leakage or energy loss. A roots-type supercharger sweeps atmospheric air into the manifold and is compressed in the manifold only. With manifold pressure, air leaks back through the rotors causing air to be heated."

I may try other pump down the road but Bosch seem to do the job and is a proven pump. I am just curious what different pump will do.
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Old 11-20-2012, 06:57 PM   #225 (permalink)
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I have tried bigger pumps but made no difference in cooling numbers. Went back to the johnson due to size.

If it goes too fast it will just bypass the HE too quickly and will just not cool down enough.

Too slow and then the water will heat up too much at the core side. The bosh is more than sufficient at the moment for the required needs. Gotta love those bosh engineers...

The key is, cool the water down. And k20 what you say makes sense for something designed to not address the situation of the water not distributing to all the channels. Proper thought to the HE design will take care of that.

The cool thing about the larger HE like done for some mustangs, etc is that the water has more area to distribute and cool down before it leaves the HE.

If it passes too quickly it will leave before being cooled as much as it could be.

To be honest our hardest job is reducing blower frictional heat from the snout side and manifold heat soak from engine head. You tackle those and things will take a turn for the better.

A hot manifold will reheat any cooled air as it passes thru the runners into the head. Of course the cooler the air is the better chance of fighting the heat soak.
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:42 PM   #226 (permalink)
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Very useful and interesting thread. Not as much data as I'd like to see, but good discussion.

I have ran a pullied (3.0 BP 6.37 CP) CT m62 with the "Stage 2" Merc kit and a venom cooler (which I didnt see much help from). I dont really like to use that data too much because, as some of you know, my blower basically emploded. lol I had major bearing failure and a lot of rotor to case contact for quite some time, that only got worse. I was running the bosch pump along with the normal hex that comes with the Merc kits. One example of my temps (before my bearing problem really showed itself) was low 100*'s cruising (around 25-30* above ambient) peaked as high as 175* at the top of a 3rd gear pull, and in 15 sec my temps were back down around 115* and in less than 30 sec I was back down to my cruising temp of low 100*'s. This was a full 2000rpm-8600rpm pull. This is just mere factual data I'm throwing into the mix.

On a side note, one thing that I think was a great idea on IMT's part was the material their spacer is made out of. It only stands to reason that the heat is coming from the blower case itself, and any heat that can be kept out of the manifold (so cooled air is not re-heated) is a plus.

Now my thoughts and ideas to bring temps down and battle heat. Since all of us use our cars for either DD or track use (or both), I have been doing some research on the use of a fan behind the hex. If the car is used for DD, you see an increase in temps while sitting at a stop light or stuck in traffic. Then it takes a few seconds or a even a few minutes to get the air moving back across the hex to get the temps back down. Same with using the car at the track. While in the staging lanes, I know the one time I ran my aftercooled setup at the track, I couldnt get the temps down until I was coasting at the end of the track because of the heat built up from sitting in the staging lanes and only got hotter as I ran the car down the track. A small fan or two would keep air moving across the hex in these times when air movement is minimal to none. One of the big upgrades for Mustang guys and Lightning guys is an "Afco" dual fan hex. Its a great design and I really think the utilization of those fans really helps to keep the temps down. I really think the design, size, capacity, etc of the hex could use some more research and testing since that is where the coolant is cooled. The cooler the coolant exiting the hex is, the cooler the air charge entering the motor is.

Once I get my new blower setup running and tuned, I will be doing a few tests with a fan mounted behind the hex. Another test I want to do is a back to back comparison of the bosch pump to the johnson pump to see if either one helps or hurts and if so, exactly how much (if any). I may also try to do a few tests with the mounting of the pump and see if that helps or hurts in any way.

(Sorry for the miniature novel)
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Old 11-20-2012, 11:54 PM   #227 (permalink)
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sorry for the miniature novel
Good info, thanks for sharing man. I did look into fans a while back after I saw that temps in AC system rises in traffic. I am sure at the track its even worse if you are waiting in line. I looked at all kinds of slim 6" fans. I didnt want to block the bottom of the HX since at 45+ mph it will become a restriction (according to fan CFM and my calcs lol).

Also, another thing to look at is available space in HX area. It maybe increased by removing crush beam but i didnt want to take it out completely. Space betweein HX and A/C is only about 1". I decided to put fan infront of the HX since fan is reversable and can be make to either pull or push air. I wired it to the same circuit as AC pump so its always on. I havent tested AC fluid temps after that but I can feel some air moving when parked. Cant say if it works or doesnt without data. I hope it does lol. Fan isnt noticable from outside. I just though I will post what I found. Someone might come up with the better solution. I am all for it. Here are a couple of pics.



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Old 11-21-2012, 12:38 AM   #228 (permalink)
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Good info, thanks for sharing man. I did look into fans a while back after I saw that temps in AC system rises in traffic. I am sure at the track its even worse if you are waiting in line. I looked at all kinds of slim 6" fans. I didnt want to block the bottom of the HX since at 45+ mph it will become a restriction (according to fan CFM and my calcs lol).

Also, another thing to look at is available space in HX area. It maybe increased by removing crush beam but i didnt want to take it out completely. Space betweein HX and A/C is only about 1". I decided to put fan infront of the HX since fan is reversable and can be make to either pull or push air. I wired it to the same circuit as AC pump so its always on. I havent tested AC fluid temps after that but I can feel some air moving when parked. Cant say if it works or doesnt without data. I hope it does lol. Fan isnt noticable from outside. I just though I will post what I found. Someone might come up with the better solution. I am all for it. Here are a couple of pics.

image


image
This fan is on a switch right? Was it on while we were driving the car down there? Did you have it on at the dyno? I remember us switching it off while we were at your house that first night installing the injectors and flashing the car.
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Old 11-21-2012, 12:44 AM   #229 (permalink)
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Can you tell less of a hike in temps while in traffic or at a stop?

I noticed there are some really affordable slimline fans that are similar to the ones used by Afco. They are around 1" thick maybe a bit less. I was thinkig, if the hex was mounted up against the crash bar, it would allow a fan to be mounted behind the hex, pulling the air across.

Another thought concerning the discussion of hex size and also the size of the pump... I may be totally off here, but would it not stand to reason that a larger and more efficient (not necessarily larger, but mainly more efficient) hex when used with a larger, stronger pump not keep temps down? I understand that idea of the water not staying in the AC long enough to absorb the heat, but my thoughts are, we are dealing with a liquid so whatever water is in the cooler is simultaneously "replaced" with the water behind it (if that makes sense). So therefore, if the water is flowing quicker through the system, the water would hear up less quickly, and be able to be cooled more efficiently.

Like I said, I could be just thinking too much, but that seems to make more sense to me, than trying to justify slowing the water flow down to allow more heat absorption. To me it would be like trying to cool off a hot pan after cooking. Is the pan going to cool faster if the water runs out of the faucet at a slow steady stream or if you turn it wide open and poor as much water on it as your faucet will allow? There again, could be trying to compare apples to oranges instead of apples to apples.

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Old 11-21-2012, 12:49 AM   #230 (permalink)
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This fan is on a switch right? Was it on while we were driving the car down there? Did you have it on at the dyno? I remember us switching it off while we were at your house that first night installing the injectors and flashing the car.
No, its comes on at the same time as pump. So, its always on. I took relay fuses when you guys came since I knew Vit is gonna do a lot of tuning and my battery was almost dead. I didnt want you guys to get stuck in a middle of nowhere lol. I dont think I put relay fuses back on a dyno. I might be wrong though. I remember unplughing fan but not pluging it back.
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Old 11-21-2012, 01:01 AM   #231 (permalink)
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Can you tell less of a hike in temps while in traffic or at a stop?

I noticed there are some really affordable slimline fans that are similar to the ones used by Afco. They are around 1" thick maybe a bit less. I was thinkig, if the hex was mounted up against the crash bar, it would allow a fan to be mounted behind the hex, pulling the air across.

Another thought concerning the discussion of hex size and also the size of the pump... I may be totally off here, but would it not stand to reason that a larger and more efficient (not necessarily larger, but mainly more efficient) hex when used with a larger, stronger pump not keep temps down? I understand that idea of the water not staying in the AC long enough to absorb the heat, but my thoughts are, we are dealing with a liquid so whatever water is in the cooler is simultaneously "replaced" with the water behind it (if that makes sense). So therefore, if the water is flowing quicker through the system, the water would hear up less quickly, and be able to be cooled more efficiently.

Like I said, I could be just thinking too much, but that seems to make more sense to me, than trying to justify slowing the water flow down to allow more heat absorption. To me it would be like trying to cool off a hot pan after cooking. Is the pan going to cool faster if the water runs out of the faucet at a slow steady stream or if you turn it wide open and poor as much water on it as your faucet will allow? There again, could be trying to compare apples to oranges instead of apples to apples.
I never did try to measure AC fluid temps again after I put it in. I may do it. I need to get temp logger from work again.

I was thinking about the same thing. I am sure some good info is posted online somewhere. I will try to find. If anyone else finds it, please post so we educate ourselves.
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Old 11-21-2012, 01:03 AM   #232 (permalink)
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I have some spare slimline fans laying around from my old DA. Now you're making me want to wire one to a switch on the backside of my A2A just for the track...
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Old 11-21-2012, 01:33 AM   #233 (permalink)
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I have some spare slimline fans laying around from my old DA. Now you're making me want to wire one to a switch on the backside of my A2A just for the track...
do it hehehe. I have 3 of the same once laying somewhere .

On a side note. I was thinking about fluid speed again lol. Slow fluid speed isnt good.. its obvious. If the water travels in AC core too fast, it takes less heat out of incoming air frow compare to the fluid that travels a bit slower. Our AC cores are pretty small (compare to other cars). There is only certain amount of heat it can extract. With optimal flow, liquid will absorb all the available heat and leaves.

As liquid leaves AC core, it goes to HX. Faster liquid flow will stay in HX less time and will cool down less as well. In addition, the higher the temperature difference between 2 medias (air and water), the higher heatransfer is. If liquid is slightly warm, heat transfer will be less compare to hot liquid going to the HX. I am just thinking out loud. It seems like there should be an optimal liquid speed that will make the whole system efficient.
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Old 11-21-2012, 01:46 AM   #234 (permalink)
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That's what I was thinking also. Seems like if the heat exchanger was larger, therefore taking the fluid a bit longer to pass through, further cooling it, but also having a very strong pump to circulate quicker through the AC, would be the optimal setup. But then you could also go so many directions with efficiency of the hex, efficiency of the AC core, pump speed and efficiency, etc etc. I think I may contact a few companies who do this kind of research all the time. Kenne Bell, Whipple, Afco, and some others and see what their take is on the issues of hex and AC core size.

What would be baller is to some how fab the case to be liquid cooled like the Kenne Bell design. Those blowers are cold and have the lowest IAT's of any blower I've ever seen or researched.

Last edited by 08Sivic; 11-21-2012 at 01:47 AM.
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Old 11-21-2012, 02:03 AM   #235 (permalink)
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That's what I was thinking also. Seems like if the heat exchanger was larger, therefore taking the fluid a bit longer to pass through, further cooling it, but also having a very strong pump to circulate quicker through the AC, would be the optimal setup. But then you could also go so many directions with efficiency of the hex, efficiency of the AC core, pump speed and efficiency, etc etc. I think I may contact a few companies who do this kind of research all the time. Kenne Bell, Whipple, Afco, and some others and see what their take is on the issues of hex and AC core size.

What would be baller is to some how fab the case to be liquid cooled like the Kenne Bell design. Those blowers are cold and have the lowest IAT's of any blower I've ever seen or researched.
Yeah, design of all this components does seem to be a bit involved. If you do find any good material or any replies from companies, please let me know. It will be very interesting to read and try to understand reasoning behind. I did see a few of those liquid cooled cases. It sure would be baller lol.
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Old 11-21-2012, 02:24 AM   #236 (permalink)
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This fan is on a switch right? Was it on while we were driving the car down there? Did you have it on at the dyno? I remember us switching it off while we were at your house that first night installing the injectors and flashing the car.
i pulled the fuse out of that fan at the track. the battery kept dying lol
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Old 11-21-2012, 02:56 AM   #237 (permalink)
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i pulled the fuse out of that fan at the track. the battery kept dying lol
not anymore lol, thanks man
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Old 11-21-2012, 02:59 AM   #238 (permalink)
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LOL That's why I'd have mines on a switch in the cabin ahhahahah
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Old 11-21-2012, 03:04 AM   #239 (permalink)
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Old 11-21-2012, 06:29 AM   #240 (permalink)
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Very useful and interesting thread. Not as much data as I'd like to see, but good discussion.

I have ran a pullied (3.0 BP 6.37 CP) CT m62 with the "Stage 2" Merc kit and a venom cooler (which I didnt see much help from). I dont really like to use that data too much because, as some of you know, my blower basically emploded. lol I had major bearing failure and a lot of rotor to case contact for quite some time, that only got worse. I was running the bosch pump along with the normal hex that comes with the Merc kits. One example of my temps (before my bearing problem really showed itself) was low 100*'s cruising (around 25-30* above ambient) peaked as high as 175* at the top of a 3rd gear pull, and in 15 sec my temps were back down around 115* and in less than 30 sec I was back down to my cruising temp of low 100*'s. This was a full 2000rpm-8600rpm pull. This is just mere factual data I'm throwing into the mix.

On a side note, one thing that I think was a great idea on IMT's part was the material their spacer is made out of. It only stands to reason that the heat is coming from the blower case itself, and any heat that can be kept out of the manifold (so cooled air is not re-heated) is a plus.

Now my thoughts and ideas to bring temps down and battle heat. Since all of us use our cars for either DD or track use (or both), I have been doing some research on the use of a fan behind the hex. If the car is used for DD, you see an increase in temps while sitting at a stop light or stuck in traffic. Then it takes a few seconds or a even a few minutes to get the air moving back across the hex to get the temps back down. Same with using the car at the track. While in the staging lanes, I know the one time I ran my aftercooled setup at the track, I couldnt get the temps down until I was coasting at the end of the track because of the heat built up from sitting in the staging lanes and only got hotter as I ran the car down the track. A small fan or two would keep air moving across the hex in these times when air movement is minimal to none. One of the big upgrades for Mustang guys and Lightning guys is an "Afco" dual fan hex. Its a great design and I really think the utilization of those fans really helps to keep the temps down. I really think the design, size, capacity, etc of the hex could use some more research and testing since that is where the coolant is cooled. The cooler the coolant exiting the hex is, the cooler the air charge entering the motor is.

Once I get my new blower setup running and tuned, I will be doing a few tests with a fan mounted behind the hex. Another test I want to do is a back to back comparison of the bosch pump to the johnson pump to see if either one helps or hurts and if so, exactly how much (if any). I may also try to do a few tests with the mounting of the pump and see if that helps or hurts in any way.

(Sorry for the miniature novel)
Didn't someone (Jose?) mention earlier in this thread to lower the ECT fan "turn on" value in FP to help combat the temperatures seen on track?

To me, that sounds feasible, and less of a PITA than cutting the crash bar.
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