Ethanol Gas Sucks!

[ffswizzlestick]

Seems as though your numbers may be a bit off



The 85-percent-ethanol, 15-percent-gasoline mixture called E85 may not live up to its hype. While it does appear to reduce emissions as claimed, you get worse fuel economy: So poor that using $3-a-gallon E85 would be like burning $4-a-gallon regular gasoline, says Consumer Reports.

That assumes you can even find E85. In its October 2006 issue, the magazine states that E85 is mostly distributed in Midwestern states, closer to the cornfields that provide much of the organic matter that is distilled into non-drinkable ethanol, or grain alcohol. Of the 175,000 gas stations nationwide, fewer than 1,000 pump E85. (For a list, see the National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition's Web site). New York State, for instance, has only two stations, and New England has none at all.

In a test of a 2007 flex-fuel Chevrolet Tahoe, Consumer Reports found that overall economy with E85 fell from 14 mpg to 10 mpg (29 percent), acceleration of 0-to-60 mph improved from 9.1 to 8.9 seconds (2 percent), and nitrogen oxide emissions fell from 9 parts per million to 1 ppm (89 percent)—although hydrocarbon emissions remained unchanged at 1 ppm, and carbon monoxide was unchanged at a measured 0 ppm.

Automakers incur a cost in building flexible-fuel vehicles, which can run on anything from pure gasoline to the most commonly sold gasoline, already about 10 percent ethanol (in that mix, ethanol acts as an oxygenate to reduce smog), to E85. Higher-quality fuel-line fittings are required, because ethanol is corrosive (and that's why you shouldn't ever use E85 in a vehicle that isn't flex-fuel certified). The cost is an estimated $200 per vehicle. Getting E85 to the consumer also costs more: Because it's easily contaminated (ethanol soaks up moisture), it can't be transported through existing gasoline pipelines and has to travel by more costly rail, truck, or barge.

There's also a benefit, however: The government lets flex-fuel vehicles pretend they get two-thirds better mileage than gas-engine vehicles, even though actual mileage numbers are worse. A Tahoe that gets 21 mpg (highway) is actually rated at 35 mpg, for purposes of calculating the Corporate Average Fuel Economy rating, currently 27.5 mpg for cars and 21.6 mpg for light trucks. And that's for a vehicle whose best observed economy, highway-only driving, was measured by Consumer Reports at 15 mpg with E85 (and 21 mpg with gasoline). The EPA fuel-economy number that appears on the window sticker of a flex-fuel car is its gasoline mpg rating, not the E85 calculation.

Others have noted additional issues with ethanol-based fuels, starting with the problem of whether the U.S. can actually grow enough corn to feed the country, produce ethanol for the 10-percent oxygenate-blended gasoline, and create significant quantities of E85 fuels. To grow enough corn (or other crops) to run all vehicles on E85, Popular Mechanics said in its May 2006 issue, the U.S. would need to repurpose two-thirds of its 938 million acres of farmland. And a debate is ongoing about the net energy balance of ethanol—the amount of energy in a gallon of ethanol fuel minus the energy used to raise crops, transport them to an ethanol distillery, and then get the finished product to the customer. Studies have produced numbers ranging from a 30 percent loss to a 40 percent gain; most report a positive energy balance of 20 percent or more, using current production techniques.

[ffswizzlestick]

E85 Flex-Fuel Lowers Emissions and Economy: Consumer Reports - TechnoRide

[BigT]

Originally Posted by SlightlyHigherOutput

2nd, someone said that to get E85 all over the county you would need 97% of the land in the USA to be cornfields. This is also ludacris. Right now there are almost 2000 E85 stations in the USA and it's just going to grow from there. You can also get Ethanol as a bi-product of brewing Beer.

I don't know exactly how he came up with the 97% number, but he didn't just make it up. I'm sure it is just an estimate assuming we got none from other sources and also assuming that all cars were powered solely on ethanol. The point is that it isn't going to replace oil without greatly affecting the world economy and world production of all crops.

You say that there are already almost 2000 stations in the US, but that is an insignificant fraction of the ammount of gas stations. Plus even many of the stations that sell it don't sell nearly as much as the gasoline they sell.

But even with as little of it as is currently sold it has already had an impact in th the price of crops. My uncle (farmer) said that so many people grew corn this year that the price of Soybeans is higher than he has ever seen it. He always joked that if the price of Soybeans ever hit a certain ammount (I don't remember the exact number) that he would buy all his sons (he has four) new trucks. Like I said, I don't remember the exact number, but it is almost at that price right now (my best friend is his son and his fingers are crossed).

Someone also mentioned that it is different than the corn used for food. The point is that it will be planted instead of corn for food, which will still impact food production.

I'm not trying to argue, I'm just wanted to explain my point a little better. I don't know what the solution is to the oil problem, I just don't think it is ethanol.

[andy22]

what about tesla? that car looks awesome

[ak_balla]

Originally Posted by andy22

what about tesla? that car looks awesome

link?

[ryker]

Originally Posted by rbsjnh

the corn that is used for e85 is not food grade corn, it is a hybrid corn that has more sugars so it can convert to ethanol much better...
...

One acre of e85 corn production is one LESS acre of food production. Also most of the corn grown is not for human consumption but for animal feed... aka steak and porkchops!

[rbsjnh]

Originally Posted by ryker

One acre of e85 corn production is one LESS acre of food production. Also most of the corn grown is not for human consumption but for animal feed... aka steak and porkchops!

arent we still subsidizing farmers not to use than farm land, I would think a conservative such as yourself would rather see farm land generating revenue, than collecting for lack of it...

Ryker I like your opinions, they generally differ from my own...

What do you believe to be the best solution which could be put in place today, w/o everyone running out and buying a new car?

[ryker]

Originally Posted by SlightlyHigherOutput

If you convert your Civic to E85 tomorrow, you can use 85% less big oil based gas and still only take a hit of about 8% in fuel economy.

False the loss in MPG is way less than 8%

decrease in gas mileage in any current flex fuel vehicle because ethanol has a lower energy content than gasoline—75,670 British thermal units (BTUs) per gallon instead of 115,400 for gasoline. 35% LESS

ConsumerReports.org - Ethanol 10/06: E85, alternative fuels, flexible-fuel vehicles

The fuel economy of the Tahoe dropped 27 percent when running on E85 compared with gasoline, from an already low 14 mpg overall to 10 mpg (rounded to the nearest mpg). This is the lowest fuel mileage we’ve gotten from any vehicle in recent years.

- With the retail pump price of E85 averaging $2.91 per gallon in August, according to the Oil Price Information Service, which tracks petroleum and other fuel prices, a 27 percent fuel-economy penalty means drivers would have paid an average of $3.99 for the energy equivalent of a gallon of gasoline.

-When we calculated the Tahoe’s driving range, we found that it decreased to about 300 miles on a full tank of E85 compared with about 440 on gasoline. So you have to fill up more often with E85.

-Because E85 is primarily sold in the upper Midwest, most drivers in the country have no access to the fuel, even if they want it. For our Tahoe test, for example, we had to blend our own (see The great E85 fuel hunt).

-The FFV surge is being motivated by generous fuel-economy credits (read about them below) that auto-makers get for every FFV they build, even if it never runs on E85. This allows them to pump out more gas-guzzling large SUVs and pickups, which is resulting in the consumption of many times more gallons of gasoline than E85 now replaces.

Whats that, still over 30mpg average? If you have a tuner you can up the timing and make just as much power if not more with E85. So in reality, if you know how to tune you can most likely get better gas mileage out of e85 as well. It has a 105 octane rating. Did you know that you only use about 14-18% of gasonlines energy to power your car? Most of it is lost in the heat exchange in your motor. E85 is more resistant to heat.

You need to read up on the definition of octane and BTU's.







In 1988, however, Congress passed the Alternative Motor Fuels Act, carving out an exception to CAFE standards. If you made a “flex-fuel” car — a car that could run on a blend of 85 percent ethanol (any car can run on 10 percent ethanol, but most cannot handle a fuel blend of mostly ethanol) as well as gasoline — that car would give you huge credits toward your CAFE requirements. this is why GM has flex fuel cars to scam us and still place 10mpg SUV on the market

The federal government would multiply ethanol’s mileage by 6.6 and assume all flex-fuel cars would use ethanol half the time. This means a car that gets 20 mpg on gasoline and 15 mpg on ethanol would be treated for CAFE purposes as if it got 60 mpg.





Ethanol, an alcohol fuel made from grain, usually corn, benefits from special tax breaks, protective tariffs, and federal and state handouts, as well as government mandates.

In the 2006 election cycle, the PAC for Archer Daniels Midland (ADM), the nation’s top ethanol maker, gave $120,000 to federal candidates while fellow agribusiness giant Cargill, No. 2 in

[ryker]

Originally Posted by rbsjnh

arent we still subsidizing farmers not to use than farm land, I would think a conservative such as yourself would rather see farm land generating revenue, than collecting for lack of it...

Ryker I like your opinions, they generally differ from my own...

What do you believe to be the best solution which could be put in place today, w/o everyone running out and buying a new car?

Allow the consumers in America to make the choice. Allow us to buy any car that gets over 35mpg. There are hundreds of car models sold in Europe that get great MPG yet are not allowed by govt rules to be sold in the USA. ??? How is a 45mpg diesel car lesser than a 12mpg Hummer?

I'd research your statement about paying farmers to not produce crops on land.

Next up would be to enact higher taxes on urban sprawl. Stop single home building permits or make them more costly. Increase taxes on gas that would be strictly used to pay off current debts.

Sure we can drive a hyrbid ethanol car that gets 100mpg.. But if that car is used so commute 150 miles per day is that better than a 3 mile drive in a normal car? Or better than a short walk to work?

[rbsjnh]

Originally Posted by ryker

I'd research your statement about paying farmers to not produce crops on land.

The Enduring Political Illusion of Farm Subsidies: Newsroom: The Independent Institute

Farm Program Pays $1.3 Billion to People Who Don't Farm - washingtonpost.com

1.3 billion could be used for paying off the national debt...

besides now the farmers would be generating revenue, which would be taxable...
more payment of the debt...or maybe even a tax deduction...

I agree with diesels, but my question is what is the best solution w/o people buying new cars...

[ryker]

e85 requires the purchase of a new car.

[ryker]

Agribusiness giant Archer Daniels Midland Co. (ADM), the single largest beneficiary of a controversial federal ethanol tax subsidy, contributed more than $3 million in unregulated "soft money" to Republican and Democratic national party committees during the past 10 years, according to a study by Common Cause.


The tax break costs the Treasury $600 million a year, according to the General Accounting Office.

[ryker]

Put prisoners to work - growing bio-fuels. Make them pay with labor for the cost to jail them.

Every illegal allien would be required to work 30 days of labor to pay for their return bus ticket.

[rbsjnh]

Originally Posted by ryker

e85 requires the purchase of a new car.

realistically all it would require is a reflash and a new teflon fuel line...there are people converting them now on h-t and k20a...

reflashes could be made for the public quite easy...alot of cars on the road could realistically be converted to e85 for under $1000.00

I agree e85 isnt a perfect end all solution, but a temporary fix to an immediate problem...

[ryker]

as if 1000.00 is cheap.

All e85 does is place a band aid on a broken leg. Looks like your doing something but it is just delaying the fact the leg is still broke.

[ryker]

The bill signed into law by Bush - would permanently extend tax breaks for ethanol and biodiesel production.

The proposed legislation would create a permanent 51 cent-per-gallon ethanol tax credit and a 10 cent-per-gallon small producer ethanol credit. (to the manufactor notice how the big producer gets the larger tax break???)

[rbsjnh]

Originally Posted by ryker

as if 1000.00 is cheap.

All e85 does is place a band aid on a broken leg. Looks like your doing something but it is just delaying the fact the leg is still broke.

I agree with both 100%, e85 is only a band aid...

and a 1000.00 is not cheap, but it is achievable for low income families, more so than a new car...

all my point was is that it is the best band aid, for the immediate problem...

as for tax credits...its a shame, and imo what is wrong with the country, but then again I dont believe in the theory of Reagonomics...

[rbsjnh]

Originally Posted by ryker

The bill signed into law by Bush - would permanently extend tax breaks for ethanol and biodiesel production.

The proposed legislation would create a permanent 51 cent-per-gallon ethanol tax credit and a 10 cent-per-gallon small producer ethanol credit. (to the manufactor notice how the big producer gets the larger tax break???)

The biggest problem facing our country...

[ryker]

Analysis of the Effects on Energy Conservation and the Environment


This research shows the creation of e85 cars has allowed the INCREASE in regular gas. The manufactors have taken the CAFE credit to keep low or lower the average MPG so that has increased the use of gasoline. The only way e85 cars have a postive increase in fuel consumption is if every FFV car uses e85 all the time (they don't).

"This apparent paradox is explained by the fact that, in the case of petroleum consumption, 85 percent of E85 fuel used by FFVs offsets the increase in gasoline use that results from the lower fuel economy associated with the credit. However, in the case of greenhouse gas emissions, the offset is only about 25 percent, since FFVs burning E85 still generate some greenhouse gas emissions."


Our evaluation of the AMFA CAFE credit incentive policy for dual-fuel vehicles indicates that the program has had mixed results.

Key findings include:

• -

The AMFA CAFE credit program has been successful in stimulating a significant increase in the availability of alternative fuel vehicles. Nearly all of these have been flexible-fuel vehicles that can operate on gasoline or E85 fuel (a mixture of 15 percent gasoline and 85 percent ethanol). There are currently about 1.2 million of these vehicles on the road. Because manufacturers had to overcome technological challenges, nearly the entire increase in the number of these vehicles has been in the past three years.


-The auto manufacturers stated that the CAFE incentive program has been a major factor in developing and manufacturing alternative fuel vehicles in high volumes. They also stated that extension of the credit provision will be a major factor in their decision to continue offering dual-fuel vehicles in the volumes that are being produced today.

-While the availability and use of alternative fuels has increased since the inception of the CAFE credit incentive provision, it has not nearly kept pace with the increase in the number of alternative fuel vehicles. Although there are 176,000 gasoline stations nationwide, there are only 5,236 alternative fuel refueling sites and just 121 of these offer E85. The Federal government, and specifically DOE, the General Services Administration and the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) are involved with efforts to promote the use and expansion of alternative fuels and the alternative fuel infrastructure. A major focus of these efforts is the development of different feedstocks for ethanol and on partnerships that result in the expansion of the ethanol fueling infrastructure.


Due to the lagging development of the alternative fuel infrastructure and the fact that E85 fuel is typically more expensive on a gasoline-equivalent basis, the vast majority of dual-fuel vehicles rarely operate on alternative fuel. Even under these circumstances, use of E85 increased from 694,000 gasoline gallon equivalents in1996, to more than 3.3 million gasoline gallon equivalents in 2000. It is also important to note that even if relatively few of these vehicles are actually being operated on E85, it is still valuable to be increasing that capability throughout the fleet because it could potentially contribute to the future transition away from petroleum, could spur an increase in the number of E85 refueling sites, and provide consumers an alternative if there are gas shortages or gas prices increase significantly.


-Conducting an assessment of the energy and environmental impacts of the dual-fuel vehicle credit incentive is complicated by uncertainty regarding automobile manufacturers' behavior. While the use of alternative fuels can reduce petroleum consumption and greenhouse gas emissions, the energy consumption and environmental impacts cannot be assessed with any reasonable amount of certainty because we cannot determine what manufacturers would have done in the absence of the credit incentive.
If it is assumed that vehicle manufacturers took advantage of the incentive to relax the effect of the CAFE standard on the rest of their fleet, then the credit incentive has resulted in an increase in alternative fuel use (almost all E85), and some slight increase in petroleum consumption (about one percent) and greenhouse gas emissions (well less than one percent). Unless the availability and use of alternative fuels is significantly expanded, the CAFE credit incentive program will not result in any reduced petroleum consumption or greenhouse gas emissions in the future.


-It is also possible that manufacturers might have responded to strong consumer demand for performance and utility and produced the same vehicles without the provision as they did with it. In this case, manufacturers would have chosen to pay civil penalties rather than meet the CAFE standard. Under this scenario, the main effect of the program has been to greatly expand the population of vehicles that have the potential to use alternative fuels. Such as domestic cars with diesel engines or hybrids. Instead GM choose to screw over the public with the false idol of FFV cars. In 1999 Volkswagon imported a turbo diesel car that was 49mpg Highway. In 2000 Honda Insight hybrid was imported and it was rated at 70mpg highway. Why the hold back on Diesel cars?

[BoulderFA5]

One thing I haven't seen on this thread yet is an explanation of why e10 gas exists. The ethanol acts to reduce the amount of carbon monoxide and unburned hydrocarbons going out your tailpipe. Before this, gas companies used MTBE (methyl tert-butyl ether) as an additive to do the same thing. The problem was the MTBE is carcinogenic (causes cancer), so it was pulled, and we're stuck with e10 for the time being, at least out here in CO.

Also, no one has said anything about what I think is the biggest problem with ethanol: how much energy it takes to make. Distillation of ethanol from fermented corn takes a lot of energy, and coupled with ther substantially worse fuel mileage, I don't think it's that great. Biodiesel FTW!