Ethanol Gas Sucks!

[ffswizzlestick]

Originally Posted by rbsjnh

your math doesn't add up...

How does my math not add up. Say you fill up and use 85% less oil the first time. You then get 5 mpg less with that tank. So you fill up again. You keep doing this while getting less mpg and still using oil, eventually you will use more oil because you are filling up more often.

[rbsjnh]

Originally Posted by nolimit179

ethanol seems to have much more negatives then positives for use in cars. using ethanol e85, e100, or e10 all lower gas mileage and cause food prices to go up. ok its cleaner burning, but now you have to fill up more often (not really helping with the cleaner part) and have to use some of our food to make it. the future of fuels seem to be hydrogen, its easy to make (can be made at the pump), no pollution and gets better mileage and more power then any mixture of gas. well the government is in control and whoever has deepest pockets will win that war.

e85 still burns cleaner than fossil fuels...and every bit helps

the corn that is used for e85 is not food grade corn, it is a hybrid corn that has more sugars so it can convert to ethanol much better...

Hydrogen is probably the best solution going, except everyone would need to buy a new car, millions of pumps need to be built...

dont get me wrong e85 is not the solution, it is a temporary fix to an immediate crisis...

[ffswizzlestick]

Originally Posted by rbsjnh

e85 still burns cleaner than fossil fuels...and every bit helps

the corn that is used for e85 is not food grade corn, it is a hybrid corn that has more sugars so it can convert to ethanol much better...

Hydrogen is probably the best solution going, except everyone would need to buy a new car, millions of pumps need to be built...

dont get me wrong e85 is not the solution, it is a temporary fix to an immediate crisis...

It burns cleaner in what matter? Are you saying it burns cleaner because it emits less carbon than petroleum based products? If thats the case, you should stop just listening to what other people tell you. Its not all true. Although, I do agree that hydrogen would be the way to go.

[rbsjnh]

Originally Posted by ffswizzlestick

It burns cleaner in what matter? Are you saying it burns cleaner because it emits less carbon than petroleum based products? If thats the case, you should stop just listening to what other people tell you. Its not all true. Although, I do agree that hydrogen would be the way to go.

teach me...how do you figure?

[ffswizzlestick]

Well, you get told that carbon is bad. Is that correct? It isn't its actually natural.

[rbsjnh]

but the carbon levels that fossil fuels produce, have a negative impact on the environment, and being that e85 produces less carbon, isnt that at least 1% better?

[ffswizzlestick]

No that was my point. It doesn't have a negative impact on the environment. There is literally no proof that it does.

[rbsjnh]

what about the greenhouse effect?

[SlightlyHigherOutput]

Alot of people in here have bad math skills and are going on hear-say.

[rbsjnh]

please partake in the conversation then...what is your opinion SlightlyHigherOutput

Mr bill I see your watching what yo opinion

[ffswizzlestick]

The greenhouse effect is a theory that is backed by little to no scientific fact. Water vapor actually retains heat much more than CO2.

[SlightlyHigherOutput]

Originally Posted by rbsjnh

please partake in the conversation then...what is your opinion SlightlyHigherOutput

Mr bill I see your watching what yo opinion

Well for one, someone said that b/c e85 doesn't make as much power as gas it needs more of it to run. So in the long run it will have used more oil. This thoery is ludacris. If you convert your Civic to E85 tomorrow, you can use 85% less big oil based gas and still only take a hit of about 8% in fuel economy. Whats that, still over 30mpg average? If you have a tuner you can up the timing and make just as much power if not more with E85. So in reality, if you know how to tune you can most likely get better gas mileage out of e85 as well. It has a 105 octane rating. Did you know that you only use about 14-18% of gasonlines energy to power your car? Most of it is lost in the heat exchange in your motor. E85 is more resistant to heat.

2nd, someone said that to get E85 all over the county you would need 97% of the land in the USA to be cornfields. This is also ludacris. Right now there are almost 2000 E85 stations in the USA and it's just going to grow from there. You can also get Ethanol as a bi-product of brewing Beer.

Automakers can very easily make new cars e85 compatible, and also have old cars converted. Eventually with new and better technology, E85 cars will be just as good in the gas mileage department while using 85% less big oil fuel. The US is not the only place Ethanol can be produced, South America, mainly Brazil is the largest producer of Ethanol in the world. We could have it imported from there. Personally I'd rather give my money to US farmers or even Brazillian farmers rather than Price Habibu over in I'mgonnaBombtheUSkastan.

[rbsjnh]

SlightlyHigherOutput I thank you for getting involved and your opinions...I agree w/u 100%

Rep +1

[ffswizzlestick]

Originally Posted by SlightlyHigherOutput

Well for one, someone said that b/c e85 doesn't make as much power as gas it needs more of it to run. So in the long run it will have used more oil. This thoery is ludacris. If you convert your Civic to E85 tomorrow, you can use 85% less big oil based gas and still only take a hit of about 8% in fuel economy. Whats that, still over 30mpg average? If you have a tuner you can up the timing and make just as much power if not more with E85. So in reality, if you know how to tune you can most likely get better gas mileage out of e85 as well. It has a 105 octane rating. Did you know that you only use about 14-18% of gasonlines energy to power your car? Most of it is lost in the heat exchange in your motor. E85 is more resistant to heat.

2nd, someone said that to get E85 all over the county you would need 97% of the land in the USA to be cornfields. This is also ludacris. Right now there are almost 2000 E85 stations in the USA and it's just going to grow from there. You can also get Ethanol as a bi-product of brewing Beer.

Automakers can very easily make new cars e85 compatible, and also have old cars converted. Eventually with new and better technology, E85 cars will be just as good in the gas mileage department while using 85% less big oil fuel. The US is not the only place Ethanol can be produced, South America, mainly Brazil is the largest producer of Ethanol in the world. We could have it imported from there. Personally I'd rather give my money to US farmers or even Brazillian farmers rather than Price Habibu over in I'mgonnaBombtheUSkastan.

You just proved yourself wrong right there. Less gas mileage plus oil (it is less) will eventually mean more oil. It is not a viable solution to anything. And there are plenty of people in South America that hate us. There is no reason to destroy the economy to produce a fuel that has no real positive effect.

[SlightlyHigherOutput]

Originally Posted by ffswizzlestick

You just proved yourself wrong right there. Less gas mileage plus oil (it is less) will eventually mean more oil. It is not a viable solution to anything. And there are plenty of people in South America that hate us. There is no reason to destroy the economy to produce a fuel that has no real positive effect.

You have no concept of math if you think you'll use more oil with e85 over a long period of time. It's very simple actually. You have 100% big oil based fuel. A 10 gallon tank gets you 300 miles. Then you have a 10 gallon tank of E85 that will get you about 275 miles while using only 15% big oil of that 10 gallons!

Now say you go 30,000 miles this year. With 100% Big oil based fuel you have used 1000 gallons of big oil fuel. With E85 you have used 162 gallons of big oil fuel. Do the math if you see any flaw in my logic. The numbers only grow further apart from there. If you go 90,000 miles you'll use 3000 gallons of big oil fuel. With E85 only 486 gallons.

Not even close. Not to mention this is using TODAYS tech with your very own Honda Civic. Technology will only get better.

[ffswizzlestick]

I said extended periods of time. You are accounting for one car on an average of 2 years. Now think about every person, driving every car over the period of their lives. You are not thinking about a big picture.

[SlightlyHigherOutput]

Originally Posted by ffswizzlestick

I said extended periods of time. You are accounting for one car on an average of 2 years. Now think about every person, driving every car over the period of their lives. You are not thinking about a big picture.

Since it seems that you lack reading comprehension as well I'll put it simply for you.

E85 uses 85% less big oil based fuel. The offset in fuel Economy is about 8% in TODAYS cars. Leaving a 77% difference in big oil based fuel consumption.

[ffswizzlestick]

Originally Posted by SlightlyHigherOutput

Since it seems that you lack reading comprehension as well I'll put it simply for you.

E85 uses 85% less big oil based fuel. The offset in fuel Economy is about 8% in TODAYS cars. Leaving a 77% difference in big oil based fuel consumption.

You can't add completely unrelated percentages, that is a fact in mathematics. If your math is correct (I didn't check cause I'm pretty lazy) you said that you will use 486 gallons of gas over the 90,000 miles. That is actually more than the 15% of 3000 (which is 450). That there proves that it is increasing.

Also, there is no need to attack people personally.

[SlightlyHigherOutput]

Originally Posted by ffswizzlestick

You can't add completely unrelated percentages, that is a fact in mathematics. If your math is correct (I didn't check cause I'm pretty lazy) you said that you will use 486 gallons of gas over the 90,000 miles. That is actually more than the 15% of 3000 (which is 450). That there proves that it is increasing.

Also, there is no need to attack people personally.

I know you can't add unrelated percentages. I figured since you can't see how blatently wrong you are that you wouldnt know that.

So you're telling me over a 90,000 mile trip the fact that the useage of big oil fuel in E85 went from 450 (as a perfect 15% if ethanol mpg was = to regular gas mpg) to 486 that will catch up to the 3000 gallons you would have used with 100% big oil based fuel? You do know that you can multiply this by a billion to see how many gallons would have been used over a billion times more miles. And the numbers just keep growing further and further apart. It will NEVER catch up, only fall further behind.

[moaltar]

Me being a chemist, I would have to say that ethanol as a fuel is no better than gasoline.

When ethanol is combusted in the cylinder of an engine, the waste products should be only water vapor and carbon dioxide, but any internal combustion engine is horrible at finishing the combustion reaction perfectly, and so you end up with carbon monoxide, some free radicals, and other harmful things to the enviroment. And its just the same for gasoline. The end products of combusting either fuel will both give you a greenhouse gas. Even water vapor is a greenhouse gas!

But unlike gasoline (which contains a mixture of hexane, heptane, a little octane, and other straight chain hydocarbons) ethanol has already been oxidized, and so it contains less energy in combustion when compared to gasoline. So thats why a car that runs on ethanol will have less fuel mileage than one that runs on just gasoline. In a combustion reaction, it just simply takes more ethanol to do the same job as less gasoline.

There is actually more to the chemisty than I'm telling you, this is just the basic stuff.

I actually say to hell with ethanol and gasloline, hydrogen fuel cells are the future! Everything else is just a temporary solution.

Just my 0.02