New Recall: Rear Bearing (Revised, threads merged) - Page 17

ocspray · 09-20-2007, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nychus

OC
Dude i don't know you. And i don't dislike you. But you flamed people, and i was the first to tell you to friggin chill, and instead of being like,. "yeah i got a little impatient, my bad." you went off like a bad a$$ saying "i wasn't nice and i don't have to be nice". No one does man, But it helps. You even just said it.
I like this forum and this webiste. On my very first post i was greated with much respect and met 30+ cool people in PERSON my first week that i signed up. I talked with all of them, asked dumb questions out of ingorance and inexperience. But they didn't tell me to go read a book. They helped me. And thats a good thing, because i may not know a lot about intakes and headers, and MODS, but know plenty about other stuff just as useful.
It ain't luck i pegged you as a mech. Only people in the service industry use "PITA" because they call people it so much they don't type it out or say it anymore. So i figured you were a mech or a waiter.

When did I tell someone to go read a book, or make any reference to reading comprehension? In your PM, you mentioned I told people to "brain up" and to "learn how to read." I didn't make those posts, not a single one. I'll spend the time to read the rest of your lengthy PM, but it's clear you've confused my posts with another poster's. I don't plan to get an apology from you, but feel free to surprise me.

I never flamed anyone because they didn't understand the Safety Recall TSB (more confusion on your part). Was I sarcastic? Certainly, but my point was that some people (including you) were making unreasonable demands and expectations of Honda, and I pointed that out. Since you're apparently unable to quote me properly, I did make this statement:

"Nychus, I wasn't trying to be nice, so at least in your eyes, I succeeded. I meant every word I said. Needlessly freaking out mere days into this recall is doing no one any good. When a business has to deal with a customer that's routinely a PITA, they will be branded as such, usually to the detriment of said PITA. A customer can be calm, informed, and firm, all without being a PITA."

Not quite the same as: "you went off like a bad a$$ saying 'i wasn't nice and i don't have to be nice'." You didn't refute what I said, and instead made me out to be a "bad a$$" that doesn't care about helping people or hurting their feelings. I've certainly helped people in this thread (which I can't remember you doing), and I've taken the time to logically discuss issues related to the recall instead of being a "bad a$$" (haven't seen much but emotion and inaccurate statements coming from you). If you want to debate something, have at it, but be accurate or leave it alone.

As you said, you don't know me, and I certainly don't pretend to know you, but I have quoted you to illustrate your positions, such as now: "Only people in the service industry use 'PITA'..." Wrong again. PITA is internet jargon and has absolutely nothing to do with my past jobs. You've repeatedly demonstrated your disdain for mechanics, and you've tarred me as well. Hey, I don't care if you like me, but when you make false statements that confuse an issue, or make unreasonable demands, I'll point it out. You could've easily admitted you were wrong, or made an effort to prove me incorrect and by doing so added to the discussion (see VelociRacer's and NIGHTHAWKSI's posts for examples of how this is done), but you've repeatedly chosen not to. It's much easier for you to say I'm a biased flamer than to back up your assertions, or for you to admit when you're wrong.

I'm still waiting for those quotes of my biased statements, BTW. Maybe by the time I'm done reading your PM you'll have something, but I doubt it.

ocspray · 09-20-2007, 11:38 AM

Back to the recall:

I'm curious if anyone had a rear hub bearing unit replaced out of warranty (had to pay for repairs) and has had their money refunded since the recall was issued. If so, what was that experience like? Was there any argument from the dealership?

Mateen · 09-20-2007, 02:06 PM

ocspray
No one is making unreasonable demands. We are just a bunch of confused consumers trying to make some sence out of this recall.
Every time I posted a concern, it was replied with your sarcastic remarks. You did not have any answers that would help me regarding my questions. But yet you were making some off the wall assumptions trying to defend Honda.
My main concern was why they had to redsign the Rear Hub Bearing unit. If you look at the recall notice it specifies that the failed part was the Rear Hub Bearing unit. Now go look at the replies you have made to my concern.
Another thing, you keep calling this a voluntary recall. As far as I know the word "voluntary" means doing something willingly that you did not have to do. Are you saying that Honda did not have to do this recall and decided to do it voluntarily?

ocspray · 09-20-2007, 03:07 PM

"Are you saying that Honda did not have to do this recall and decided to do it voluntarily?" - Mateen

Yes, and I've already posted on this before. Honda brought this issue to NHTSA, not the other way around. Honda researched it (remember the memo requesting failed parts), determined a course of action, and informed NHTSA that they were going to issue a recall. No law suits, no media campaign, no threatening letters from NHTSA. That sounds like a voluntary recall to me. If someone has proof this wasn't a voluntary action, let us all know.

"You did not have any answers that would help me regarding my questions. But yet you were making some off the wall assumptions trying to defend Honda." - Mateen

If I was "making some off the wall assumptions trying to defend Honda", why don't we discuss those? Specifically, what assumptions have I made that you don't agree with? As for defending Honda, I certainly am. They've voluntarily acted (see above) on data suggesting a safety concern that may affect 186,000 cars, and I respect that kind of integrity.

Yes, as you noted (and I acknowledged), the Hub Bearing Unit has apparently changed. That said, the failure was caused by improper installation of ABS Wheel Sensors, leading to failed O-rings, which led to Hub Bearing Unit failures. There's nothing to indicate that the original Hub Bearing Unit design is faulty. If Honda thought that the original Hub Bearing Unit was failure prone, they'd replace all of them instead of just the ones that showed contamination and abnormal wear. Why would they do otherwise when they've already admitted a problem with the rear hub assembly and initiated a voluntary safety recall? If you want to argue that all O-rings, regardless of condition upon inspection, be replaced, I think you have a point, but you never said that.

IMO, a lot of the confusion about the recall has come from needless hysteria. Since you didn't bother to cite what posts you were referring to, I'll take a stab at it. BTW, I won't be digging around for you again. If you have a problem with something, you do the research:

"So if they inspect and find nothing wrong, does it mean that nothing will go wrong or nothing has gone wrong yet? " - Mateen

I did lump my first response to your

post with one to kgee, and I'll admit it was a little over the top. However, it was in the context of the escalating hysteria about the recall:

"Holy Crap! You're absolutely right! Let's set up a weekly inspection schedule so we can inspect every fastener on The Precious to ensure nothing ever goes wrong with It. Don't worry, it's a free service we provide for every Honda owner. We'll even lick the brake dust off of your wheels after every inspection." - ocspray

I can see how you might be offended by my humor, and for that, I apologize. However, your post was rather irrational. I'll PM kgee and make nice with them, too. Here's my second response:

"I hope this is a joke." - ocspray

"What I mean is when they do the inspection, and find that the O-ring is not damaged. Who's to say that they will not be damaged later on. since they are claiming that 5% of the cars are affected, what about the other 95%? Since they were all manufactured/installed the same way, does it mean that the other 95% would have a chance to get affected somewhere down the line?" - Mateen

Part of my response (here's the entire post):

"Mateen, there's no reason to believe that a properly assembled rear hub assembly will fail prematurely. There's nothing inherently wrong with Honda's original design of the assembly, but for anyone that's determined to Monk out about this recall, I have a secret to share: Every rear hub bearing unit on every Honda Civic will fail! That's right, every one! In fact, every single bearing on every Honda ever made will fail, because they're machines, and they can't heal themselves.

On to the new hub bearing unit part number (good eye, Mateen). Honda has spent months determining what caused the failure and what cars are affected. Perhaps during the investigation, a change was made to the hub bearing unit to address a newfound improvement - "The original part was fine, but we can make it a little better". Perhaps the change was incidental - a minor modification made to the unit so it could be used on more than one model. Since Honda is already recalling over 180,000 cars, it's reasonable to assume that if whatever changes were made to the hub bearing unit were crucial to its reliability, Honda would call for their outright replacement instead of an inspection." - ocspray

So, what exactly do you have a problem with? By exactly, I mean POST A DIRECT QUOTE, like this:

"You did not have any answers that would help me regarding my questions." - Mateen

You asked a question about the new part number, I gave detailed responses (more than what I just cited), and...what? You felt the need to make another post without backing anything up? You wanted me to post some quotes to refute you yet again? Do you want another apology, a better answer? The time to bring this up was during that particular discussion, but let me know specifically what you want, and I'll see what I can do.

kgee · 09-20-2007, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ocspray

Yes, that's it. They all really are out to get you, and the first step was to sabotage your wheel bearings. Keep that roll of aluminium foil handy.

Every Honda employee wasn't born to obsess over each and every Honda ever sold. The recall isn't even a week old. Many service departments don't have the parts (or possibly the tool) to perform the work, and after a few months of dealing with some special customers, I'd be giving the meh response, too. I wouldn't put it past a service manager to blow someone off if they routinely fielded OCD phone calls, which is why I wish some would think about their behavior. When you're a needless PITA, you make it that much more difficult for anyone to get legitimate work done.

So if they inspect and find nothing wrong, does it mean that nothing will go wrong or nothing has gone wrong yet?

Holy Crap! You're absolutely right! Let's set up a weekly inspection schedule so we can inspect every fastener on The Precious to ensure nothing ever goes wrong with It. Don't worry, it's a free service we provide for every Honda owner. We'll even lick the brake dust off of your wheels after every inspection.

Haha...First of all...I'm a car guy ( Chevy ) and have done grunt work on every part of a car. LOL. So even though I come across as an idiot...my main question was "Does my VIN fall into the range and I am not seeing it?" I know my wheel will not fall off today because the dealer turned me away yesterday. LMAO

Because it looks like it does NOT fall into the range and the guy would be correct. But I bought this Honda to make sure I don't have to spend weekends working on a car, and so I can focus on maintaining my 4.0 throughout college. I don't have time to read 50 pages of this thread and perhaps missed something.

I got your PM, so no hard feelings, as I am not trying to bash you back. lol

I just know how people are...and always have my guard up with my suspicions about the honesty of a stealership.

It's okay you took your anger out on me. I'll just go home and kick the dog around or something. Perhaps run a Scion TC off the road or something.

Nychus · 09-20-2007, 03:57 PM

OC, you are correct sir. I retract and appologize for flaming you for telling people to learn how to read and for calling you rude. That was Vince. So vinny, all that i projected to OC,.. that's all you bro. And OC, you basically made a common assumption that people with new cars expect their mechs to lick their shoes like slaves. They are not slaves, they are workers,. like we all are in our own ways, so either do your job,. or quit. Don't guilt trip people into thinking their concerns are worthless.

Mateen · 09-20-2007, 04:03 PM

Yes that is exacly why they did this recall because they did not want to deal with law suits, media campaign, and threatening letters from NHTSA. So don't tell me that they did not have to do this recall, therefore it would not make it a voluntary recall.
As far as off the wall assumptions go, you can refer to the following post numbers.

# 279 & 324: "Every rear hub bearing unit on every Honda Civic will fail!"

I have had 8 cars that have driven over 160k miles and I do not recall the rear hub bearing fail on any of them.

# 296: "Here's another, more cynical reason for the hub bearing unit model number change: Honda found a way to make the part cheaper, and almost as good as the original. Cheaper bearing, weaker alloy, cheesier seals; take your pick. Still want your "upgrade"?".

Now why would they even think about cutting costs in the midst of such crisis. Don't you think there had to be a better reason why there was model number change?

# 324: "There's nothing inherently wrong with Honda's original design of the assembly."

And how do you know that?

# 324: "The original part was fine, but we can make it a little better".

And how do you know that the original part was fine when it is spelled out on the recall notice that it was the failed part? And who is "WE"? Are you referring to "we" as Honda?

ocspray · 09-20-2007, 04:10 PM

kgee, good luck in school, and I'm glad your car isn't affected by the recall.

Nychus, my intent was never to make "a common assumption that people with new cars expect their mechs to lick their shoes like slaves", or to "guilt trip people into thinking their concerns are worthless". If you took my posts that way, then so be it. Everyone can form their own opinion, as you did, and we can leave it at that.

Mateen, I'm going to eat lunch and get back to you.

BigT · 09-20-2007, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sli(k

well I just got back, nothing wrong with the bearings....

But, when I got out of the car I noticed a couple deep gashes in the paint on my front bumper - that DEFINITELY weren't there when I left this morning. They rushed me out of that place pretty quickly, and I'm almost positive someone at that dealership did this. Who do they let drive the cars around? I mean when I got it back the seat was WAY forward, as if some punk ass kid had been driving it. Oh yeah, and the guy on the computer nearly gave me an oil change after I told him 5 times I was only there for the recall, and he goes "Yeah, I know" all attitude when I told him to take it off.

Jim White Honda in Maumee, OH FTL

That is where I bought my car

. They were seemed in a hurry like this too when bought my car (transferred from another dealer). And after I left I found a small chip/ding in my hood. It wasn't worth taking it back and having them tell me I did it (even though I live right down the road).

Edit: Just because they were in a hurry doesn't mean they knew about the ding, it just makes you wonder.

ocspray · 09-20-2007, 05:34 PM

1. If left in use, every bearing ever made will eventually fail. If left in use, every machine will eventually fail. Just because you've "had 8 cars that have driven over 160k miles and do not recall the rear hub bearing fail on any of them", doesn't mean those bearings aren't going to eventually fail, just like every bearing on every Honda ever made. I made those statements in reference to your irrational posts about what would happen if a Hub Bearing Unit that passed the inspection later failed (guess what? they all eventually will!). What part of that is an "off the wall assumption"?

2. The Hub Bearing Unit (HBU) part number change. I explained my position on this across several posts, and I'm not going to spend 30 minutes dredging them up. I made the comment about the possibilities resulting in a HBU part number change after several other comments about how the number change could be the result of many things (here's another: new parts supplier), none of which meant that the original HBU design is faulty. In this instance, the burden of proof is on you to prove there's something wrong with the original HBU, and unless I missed it, you have nothing more than a part number change as "proof". A parts number change does not, in and of itself, signify anything. What part of that is an "off the wall assumption"?

3. I said that there's nothing inherently wrong with Honda's original design of the assembly because Honda has investigated this issue (as has been thoroughly established) and devised a procedure to rectify the problem without necessarily requiring the outright replacement of every HBU. At this point, if you don't understand the failure mode described by the TSB, see #5 below. What part of that is an "off the wall assumption"?

4. "The original part was fine, but we can make it a little better." I'll clarify for you. I made that statement from the point of view of a hypothetical Honda engineer tasked to the hypothetical Civic Rear Suspension Improvement Group - that's be we in question. Companies constantly redesign products, the Civic included. When I posted an example of possible air bag improvements, you had no response, so you dredge this up now? What part of that is an "off the wall assumption"?

5. "And how do you know that the original part was fine when it is spelled out on the recall notice that it was the failed part?"

Okay, all of you that cringe at the CAPLOCK, look away:

THE REASON THE HBU FAILED IS BECAUSE THE O-RING ON THE ABS WHEEL SPEED SENSOR OF SOME CIVICS WAS IMPROPERLY INSTALLED, RESULTING IN BEARING CONTAMINATION.

From the TSB:
"During assembly, some wheel speed sensors may
have been improperly installed and do not seal the hub
assembly. Water may enter the hub assembly and
damage the wheel bearing. In areas where road salt is
used, the wheel bearings may corrode, which may
cause the wheel to separate and fall off, increasing the
risk of a crash."

I even left the carriage returns alone so you would accuse me of "off the wall" text layout. Geez, maybe Vince was right.

6. "Yes that is exacly why they did this recall because they did not want to deal with law suits, media campaign, and threatening letters from NHTSA. So don't tell me that they did not have to do this recall, therefore it would not make it a voluntary recall."

Talk about an "off the wall assumption"!

Let's walk through this:

Early this year, Honda gets some information from the field about HBU failures. Someone at Honda makes the decision to start an internal investigation and solicits more information company wide. During the investigation, Honda determines that the failure is caused by improperly installed O-rings on the ABS Wheel Speed Sensor, leading to contamination of the HBU. Honda determines that the problem may be so widespread and dangerous that they contact NHTSA (as required by law, but certainly not always done by auto manufacturers) and state the nature of the problem, including their efforts to rectify the situation. Honda issues a TSB covering the Safety Recall, and begins sending out Owner Notification Letters to those affected by the problem. Everything in this paragraph is well documented.

What a bunch of cynical bastards! They only did The Right Thing to avoid "law suits, [a] media campaign, and threatening letters from NHTSA". Mateen, see if kgee still has that roll of aluminum foil handy. I think I need it.

BigT · 09-20-2007, 05:45 PM

For the record, I am not trying to argue or take sides. I have seen several questions asked in this thread and just thought I'd add my $0.02.

I have worked as a parts guy (in addition to a auto tech. and a generator tech) and part #s change all the time for any number of reasons. One part # is discontinued and another takes its place. In some cases the part is exactly the same. I'm not saying the new part isn't different, but I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that Honda knows there is a problem with the old part and isn't replacing them all. Again, I'm not saying your fear is unreasonable. On the contrary, I understand your fear and am just trying to ease your fears. Most likely the part # change is unrelated.

As far as there being a problem down the road if they inspect in and say it is fine? If the o-ring is installed improperly it will allow dirt and moisture into the bearing, damaging it. It is my understanding that if the o-ring is damaged or improperly installed they are replacing the bearing and o-ring. The only way they do nothing is if the o-ring is installed properly and undamaged. If the o-ring is ok then no dirt or moisture can get into the bearing and you should have no problems later on.

If however it turns out that they are replacing damaged o-rings and not replacing the bearing I would question it. But if anyone takes their car in and they say everything checks out ok, then you are fine.

ocspray · 09-20-2007, 06:01 PM

BigT, where were you 10 pages ago?

Mateen · 09-21-2007, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigT

For the record, I am not trying to argue or take sides. I have seen several questions asked in this thread and just thought I'd add my $0.02.

I have worked as a parts guy (in addition to a auto tech. and a generator tech) and part #s change all the time for any number of reasons. One part # is discontinued and another takes its place. In some cases the part is exactly the same. I'm not saying the new part isn't different, but I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that Honda knows there is a problem with the old part and isn't replacing them all. Again, I'm not saying your fear is unreasonable. On the contrary, I understand your fear and am just trying to ease your fears. Most likely the part # change is unrelated.

As far as there being a problem down the road if they inspect in and say it is fine? If the o-ring is installed improperly it will allow dirt and moisture into the bearing, damaging it. It is my understanding that if the o-ring is damaged or improperly installed they are replacing the bearing and o-ring. The only way they do nothing is if the o-ring is installed properly and undamaged. If the o-ring is ok then no dirt or moisture can get into the bearing and you should have no problems later on.

If however it turns out that they are replacing damaged o-rings and not replacing the bearing I would question it. But if anyone takes their car in and they say everything checks out ok, then you are fine.

That was my one and only concern about the bearing. Thank you so much for clarifying it.

ocspray · 09-21-2007, 12:22 AM

Mateen · 09-21-2007, 01:22 AM

I am done with you man.
Read BigT's last post. The following was what I was trying to clarify and kept running into your sarcistic remarks. BigT answered it for me in one post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigT

It is my understanding that if the o-ring is damaged or improperly installed they are replacing the bearing and o-ring.
If however it turns out that they are replacing damaged o-rings and not replacing the bearing I would question it.

Yes I am done with you. Now go seek help.

ocspray · 09-21-2007, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mateen

I am done with you man.
Read BigT's last post. The following was what I was trying to clarify and kept running into your sarcistic remarks. BigT answered it for me in one post.

"Originally Posted by BigT:
It is my understanding that if the o-ring is damaged or improperly installed they are replacing the bearing and o-ring.
If however it turns out that they are replacing damaged o-rings and not replacing the bearing I would question it."

Yes I am done with you. Now go seek help.

I see I've made a new friend!

Actually, BigT managed to get through to you after ten prior posts said the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. I will admit a certain envy of his ability to communicate with you, but alas, it seems it's a skill I'm not destined to master. As much as I'll miss your circular posts that ignored multiple attempts by myself and others to answer your questions, I'm quite happy this is at an end.

Nychus · 09-21-2007, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mateen

I am done with you man.
Read BigT's last post. The following was what I was trying to clarify and kept running into your sarcistic remarks. BigT answered it for me in one post.

Yes I am done with you. Now go seek help.

for real. i blame the parents.

ocspray · 09-21-2007, 03:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nychus

for real. i blame the parents.

So much for your short lived attempt at the high road. If you've gotten the impression that I don't care for either of you (that's Nychus and Mateen, in case you hadn't figured that out), let me confirm that I don't. I'm sure the feeling is mutual.

I've spent quite a bit of time trying to explain myriad aspects of this topic to both of you (yes, that's Nychus and Mateen again), not so much because I care that you understand it (I'm certain you still don't), but so that maybe all of the garbage you were posting wouldn't influence someone. From both of your earlier posts (yes, that's Nychus and Mateen again), an unsuspecting Civic owner could've gotten it (incorrectly) in their head that:

1. Honda was not addressing the issue properly.
2. The only way for the problem to be addressed properly was for Honda to replace every part associated with the recall.
3. Honda should replace every original Hub Bearing Unit with the newly numbered part.

All three statements are completely false, and yet you both (yes, that's Nychus and Mateen again) wouldn't budge from your unsubstantiated and/or paranoid positions, no matter what was posted to show just how wrong you were. Someone taking that attitude with those three incorrect ideas in their head to the service manager would be guaranteed an unhappy outcome, but I doubt that matters to either of you (yes, that's Nychus and Mateen again).

Even when I showed you (just Mateen this time) ten links that clearly illustrated how bull headed you are, you couldn't find the strength of character to admit it. Nychus (just Nychus this time) railed against me post after post before he realized he had failed Vince's Reading Comprehension Quiz, and the best he could give was a limp apology (nice jab with the "guilt trip" BS), a quickly aborted attempt to continue his debate with me through PMs (too busy here to get back to me?), shortly followed by a swat at my parents. When you two (back to Nychus and Mateen again) know what respect, integrity, and humility are, let me know.

If you both (yup, it's Nychus and Mateen again) want to toss barbs my way, go right ahead, but I, and everyone else, knows you for what you truly are.

09-20-2007, 11:38 AM	#322 (permalink)
ocspray Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 188 iTrader: 0 / 0%	Back to the recall: I'm curious if anyone had a rear hub bearing unit replaced out of warranty (had to pay for repairs) and has had their money refunded since the recall was issued. If so, what was that experience like? Was there any argument from the dealership? Last edited by ocspray; 09-20-2007 at 01:12 PM.

09-20-2007, 02:06 PM	#323 (permalink)
Mateen Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: S. CA Age: 51 Posts: 394 iTrader: 0 / 0%	ocspray No one is making unreasonable demands. We are just a bunch of confused consumers trying to make some sence out of this recall. Every time I posted a concern, it was replied with your sarcastic remarks. You did not have any answers that would help me regarding my questions. But yet you were making some off the wall assumptions trying to defend Honda. My main concern was why they had to redsign the Rear Hub Bearing unit. If you look at the recall notice it specifies that the failed part was the Rear Hub Bearing unit. Now go look at the replies you have made to my concern. Another thing, you keep calling this a voluntary recall. As far as I know the word "voluntary" means doing something willingly that you did not have to do. Are you saying that Honda did not have to do this recall and decided to do it voluntarily? Last edited by Mateen; 09-20-2007 at 02:36 PM.

09-20-2007, 03:07 PM	#324 (permalink)
ocspray Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 188 iTrader: 0 / 0%	"Are you saying that Honda did not have to do this recall and decided to do it voluntarily?" - Mateen Yes, and I've already posted on this before. Honda brought this issue to NHTSA, not the other way around. Honda researched it (remember the memo requesting failed parts), determined a course of action, and informed NHTSA that they were going to issue a recall. No law suits, no media campaign, no threatening letters from NHTSA. That sounds like a voluntary recall to me. If someone has proof this wasn't a voluntary action, let us all know. "You did not have any answers that would help me regarding my questions. But yet you were making some off the wall assumptions trying to defend Honda." - Mateen If I was "making some off the wall assumptions trying to defend Honda", why don't we discuss those? Specifically, what assumptions have I made that you don't agree with? As for defending Honda, I certainly am. They've voluntarily acted (see above) on data suggesting a safety concern that may affect 186,000 cars, and I respect that kind of integrity. Yes, as you noted (and I acknowledged), the Hub Bearing Unit has apparently changed. That said, the failure was caused by improper installation of ABS Wheel Sensors, leading to failed O-rings, which led to Hub Bearing Unit failures. There's nothing to indicate that the original Hub Bearing Unit design is faulty. If Honda thought that the original Hub Bearing Unit was failure prone, they'd replace all of them instead of just the ones that showed contamination and abnormal wear. Why would they do otherwise when they've already admitted a problem with the rear hub assembly and initiated a voluntary safety recall? If you want to argue that all O-rings, regardless of condition upon inspection, be replaced, I think you have a point, but you never said that. IMO, a lot of the confusion about the recall has come from needless hysteria. Since you didn't bother to cite what posts you were referring to, I'll take a stab at it. BTW, I won't be digging around for you again. If you have a problem with something, you do the research: "So if they inspect and find nothing wrong, does it mean that nothing will go wrong or nothing has gone wrong yet? " - Mateen I did lump my first response to your post with one to kgee, and I'll admit it was a little over the top. However, it was in the context of the escalating hysteria about the recall: "Holy Crap! You're absolutely right! Let's set up a weekly inspection schedule so we can inspect every fastener on The Precious to ensure nothing ever goes wrong with It. Don't worry, it's a free service we provide for every Honda owner. We'll even lick the brake dust off of your wheels after every inspection." - ocspray I can see how you might be offended by my humor, and for that, I apologize. However, your post was rather irrational. I'll PM kgee and make nice with them, too. Here's my second response: "I hope this is a joke." - ocspray "What I mean is when they do the inspection, and find that the O-ring is not damaged. Who's to say that they will not be damaged later on. since they are claiming that 5% of the cars are affected, what about the other 95%? Since they were all manufactured/installed the same way, does it mean that the other 95% would have a chance to get affected somewhere down the line?" - Mateen Part of my response (here's the entire post): "Mateen, there's no reason to believe that a properly assembled rear hub assembly will fail prematurely. There's nothing inherently wrong with Honda's original design of the assembly, but for anyone that's determined to Monk out about this recall, I have a secret to share: Every rear hub bearing unit on every Honda Civic will fail! That's right, every one! In fact, every single bearing on every Honda ever made will fail, because they're machines, and they can't heal themselves. On to the new hub bearing unit part number (good eye, Mateen). Honda has spent months determining what caused the failure and what cars are affected. Perhaps during the investigation, a change was made to the hub bearing unit to address a newfound improvement - "The original part was fine, but we can make it a little better". Perhaps the change was incidental - a minor modification made to the unit so it could be used on more than one model. Since Honda is already recalling over 180,000 cars, it's reasonable to assume that if whatever changes were made to the hub bearing unit were crucial to its reliability, Honda would call for their outright replacement instead of an inspection." - ocspray So, what exactly do you have a problem with? By exactly, I mean POST A DIRECT QUOTE, like this: "You did not have any answers that would help me regarding my questions." - Mateen You asked a question about the new part number, I gave detailed responses (more than what I just cited), and...what? You felt the need to make another post without backing anything up? You wanted me to post some quotes to refute you yet again? Do you want another apology, a better answer? The time to bring this up was during that particular discussion, but let me know specifically what you want, and I'll see what I can do. Last edited by ocspray; 09-20-2007 at 03:15 PM.

09-20-2007, 03:57 PM	#326 (permalink)
Nychus Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Tuckahoe NY Posts: 91 William Pealer iTrader: 0 / 0%	Flame off OC, you are correct sir. I retract and appologize for flaming you for telling people to learn how to read and for calling you rude. That was Vince. So vinny, all that i projected to OC,.. that's all you bro. And OC, you basically made a common assumption that people with new cars expect their mechs to lick their shoes like slaves. They are not slaves, they are workers,. like we all are in our own ways, so either do your job,. or quit. Don't guilt trip people into thinking their concerns are worthless. Last edited by Nychus; 09-20-2007 at 04:04 PM.

09-20-2007, 04:03 PM	#327 (permalink)
Mateen Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: S. CA Age: 51 Posts: 394 iTrader: 0 / 0%	Yes that is exacly why they did this recall because they did not want to deal with law suits, media campaign, and threatening letters from NHTSA. So don't tell me that they did not have to do this recall, therefore it would not make it a voluntary recall. As far as off the wall assumptions go, you can refer to the following post numbers. # 279 & 324: "Every rear hub bearing unit on every Honda Civic will fail!" I have had 8 cars that have driven over 160k miles and I do not recall the rear hub bearing fail on any of them. # 296: "Here's another, more cynical reason for the hub bearing unit model number change: Honda found a way to make the part cheaper, and almost as good as the original. Cheaper bearing, weaker alloy, cheesier seals; take your pick. Still want your "upgrade"?". Now why would they even think about cutting costs in the midst of such crisis. Don't you think there had to be a better reason why there was model number change? # 324: "There's nothing inherently wrong with Honda's original design of the assembly." And how do you know that? # 324: "The original part was fine, but we can make it a little better". And how do you know that the original part was fine when it is spelled out on the recall notice that it was the failed part? And who is "WE"? Are you referring to "we" as Honda? Last edited by Mateen; 09-20-2007 at 04:18 PM.

09-20-2007, 04:10 PM	#328 (permalink)
ocspray Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 188 iTrader: 0 / 0%	kgee, good luck in school, and I'm glad your car isn't affected by the recall. Nychus, my intent was never to make "a common assumption that people with new cars expect their mechs to lick their shoes like slaves", or to "guilt trip people into thinking their concerns are worthless". If you took my posts that way, then so be it. Everyone can form their own opinion, as you did, and we can leave it at that. Mateen, I'm going to eat lunch and get back to you.

09-20-2007, 05:34 PM	#330 (permalink)
ocspray Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 188 iTrader: 0 / 0%	1. If left in use, every bearing ever made will eventually fail. If left in use, every machine will eventually fail. Just because you've "had 8 cars that have driven over 160k miles and do not recall the rear hub bearing fail on any of them", doesn't mean those bearings aren't going to eventually fail, just like every bearing on every Honda ever made. I made those statements in reference to your irrational posts about what would happen if a Hub Bearing Unit that passed the inspection later failed (guess what? they all eventually will!). What part of that is an "off the wall assumption"? 2. The Hub Bearing Unit (HBU) part number change. I explained my position on this across several posts, and I'm not going to spend 30 minutes dredging them up. I made the comment about the possibilities resulting in a HBU part number change after several other comments about how the number change could be the result of many things (here's another: new parts supplier), none of which meant that the original HBU design is faulty. In this instance, the burden of proof is on you to prove there's something wrong with the original HBU, and unless I missed it, you have nothing more than a part number change as "proof". A parts number change does not, in and of itself, signify anything. What part of that is an "off the wall assumption"? 3. I said that there's nothing inherently wrong with Honda's original design of the assembly because Honda has investigated this issue (as has been thoroughly established) and devised a procedure to rectify the problem without necessarily requiring the outright replacement of every HBU. At this point, if you don't understand the failure mode described by the TSB, see #5 below. What part of that is an "off the wall assumption"? 4. "The original part was fine, but we can make it a little better." I'll clarify for you. I made that statement from the point of view of a hypothetical Honda engineer tasked to the hypothetical Civic Rear Suspension Improvement Group - that's be we in question. Companies constantly redesign products, the Civic included. When I posted an example of possible air bag improvements, you had no response, so you dredge this up now? What part of that is an "off the wall assumption"? 5. "And how do you know that the original part was fine when it is spelled out on the recall notice that it was the failed part?" Okay, all of you that cringe at the CAPLOCK, look away: THE REASON THE HBU FAILED IS BECAUSE THE O-RING ON THE ABS WHEEL SPEED SENSOR OF SOME CIVICS WAS IMPROPERLY INSTALLED, RESULTING IN BEARING CONTAMINATION. From the TSB: "During assembly, some wheel speed sensors may have been improperly installed and do not seal the hub assembly. Water may enter the hub assembly and damage the wheel bearing. In areas where road salt is used, the wheel bearings may corrode, which may cause the wheel to separate and fall off, increasing the risk of a crash." I even left the carriage returns alone so you would accuse me of "off the wall" text layout. Geez, maybe Vince was right. 6. "Yes that is exacly why they did this recall because they did not want to deal with law suits, media campaign, and threatening letters from NHTSA. So don't tell me that they did not have to do this recall, therefore it would not make it a voluntary recall." Talk about an "off the wall assumption"! Let's walk through this: Early this year, Honda gets some information from the field about HBU failures. Someone at Honda makes the decision to start an internal investigation and solicits more information company wide. During the investigation, Honda determines that the failure is caused by improperly installed O-rings on the ABS Wheel Speed Sensor, leading to contamination of the HBU. Honda determines that the problem may be so widespread and dangerous that they contact NHTSA (as required by law, but certainly not always done by auto manufacturers) and state the nature of the problem, including their efforts to rectify the situation. Honda issues a TSB covering the Safety Recall, and begins sending out Owner Notification Letters to those affected by the problem. Everything in this paragraph is well documented. What a bunch of cynical bastards! They only did The Right Thing to avoid "law suits, [a] media campaign, and threatening letters from NHTSA". Mateen, see if kgee still has that roll of aluminum foil handy. I think I need it.

09-20-2007, 05:45 PM	#331 (permalink)
BigT Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Duff Beer Krusty Burger Buzz Cola Costington's Department Store Kwik-E-Mart Stupid Flanders Park Posts: 1,784 iTrader: 1 / 100%	For the record, I am not trying to argue or take sides. I have seen several questions asked in this thread and just thought I'd add my $0.02. I have worked as a parts guy (in addition to a auto tech. and a generator tech) and part #s change all the time for any number of reasons. One part # is discontinued and another takes its place. In some cases the part is exactly the same. I'm not saying the new part isn't different, but I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that Honda knows there is a problem with the old part and isn't replacing them all. Again, I'm not saying your fear is unreasonable. On the contrary, I understand your fear and am just trying to ease your fears. Most likely the part # change is unrelated. As far as there being a problem down the road if they inspect in and say it is fine? If the o-ring is installed improperly it will allow dirt and moisture into the bearing, damaging it. It is my understanding that if the o-ring is damaged or improperly installed they are replacing the bearing and o-ring. The only way they do nothing is if the o-ring is installed properly and undamaged. If the o-ring is ok then no dirt or moisture can get into the bearing and you should have no problems later on. If however it turns out that they are replacing damaged o-rings and not replacing the bearing I would question it. But if anyone takes their car in and they say everything checks out ok, then you are fine.

09-20-2007, 06:01 PM	#332 (permalink)
ocspray Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 188 iTrader: 0 / 0%	BigT, where were you 10 pages ago?

09-21-2007, 12:22 AM	#334 (permalink)
ocspray Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 188 iTrader: 0 / 0%	Too bad someone didn't post the same thing several times before. Oh yeah, they did: New Recall: Rear Bearing (Revised, threads merged) New Recall: Rear Bearing (Revised, threads merged) New Recall: Rear Bearing (Revised, threads merged) New Recall: Rear Bearing (Revised, threads merged) New Recall: Rear Bearing (Revised, threads merged) This is one of those times where Mateen "posted a concern, [and] it was replied with your [ocspray's] sarcastic remarks. You did not have any answers that would help me regarding my questions." - see Post 323 New Recall: Rear Bearing (Revised, threads merged) New Recall: Rear Bearing (Revised, threads merged) New Recall: Rear Bearing (Revised, threads merged) New Recall: Rear Bearing (Revised, threads merged) New Recall: Rear Bearing (Revised, threads merged) Yup, Vince was definitely right. Mateen, I'm glad that you've had your moment of clarity. Are you going to address this, or are we done? Last edited by ocspray; 09-21-2007 at 01:00 AM.

09-21-2007, 12:38 PM	#339 (permalink)
Nychus Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Tuckahoe NY Posts: 91 William Pealer iTrader: 0 / 0%	J.c. !