New Recall: Rear Bearing (Revised, threads merged)

[NIGHTHAWKSI]

^what kind of a half assed recall is this? they look at your car and if it doesnt look bad they dont do anything?!?!...a recall should be fixed wether or not it looks like it will be a hazard. i have never heard of such a recall as this.

what if your car is effected and within the vin range but is not showing signs yet? i would sue honda out the ass if they looked at my car and it breaks 1 year down the road because they wanted to save a few dollars on parts and not do the recall.

[ocspray]

Originally Posted by MBK

i thought it is a general recall even on cars outside of warranty because its a safety issue???

You are correct. This SAFETY RECALL has nothing to do with vehicle mileage or remaining warranty coverage. It would be swell if all mention of this being a warranty issue were deleted.

[ocspray]

Originally Posted by NIGHTHAWKSI

^what kind of a half assed recall is this? they look at your car and if it doesnt look bad they dont do anything?!?!...a recall should be fixed wether or not it looks like it will be a hazard. i have never heard of such a recall as this.

what if your car is effected and within the vin range but is not showing signs yet? i would sue honda out the ass if they looked at my car and it breaks 1 year down the road because they wanted to save a few dollars on parts and not do the recall.

From the TSB:
================================================== ==
4. Inspect the rear ABS wheel speed sensors and their O-rings.
• If the rear ABS wheel speed sensor tip has any physical damage [emphasis mine], remove the original sensor assembly, replace the corresponding rear hub bearing unit(s), and connect the new sensor’s wire harness. Then go to step 5.
================================================== ==

Pop quiz, hot shot. If there's nothing wrong with the O-ring or wheel speed sensor, what's the point in replacing the hub bearing unit?

Forget what I said. Demand, DEMAND, I SAY! that both rear hub bearing units, wheel speed sensors, and O-rings be replaced, regardless of condition. Hell, DEMAND! they replace the front bearings, too. Good luck with that.

[NIGHTHAWKSI]

Originally Posted by ocspray

From the RECALL:
================================================== ==
4. Inspect the rear ABS wheel speed sensors and their O-rings.
• If the rear ABS wheel speed sensor tip has any physical damage [emphasis mine], remove the original sensor assembly, replace the corresponding rear hub bearing unit(s), and connect the new sensor’s wire harness. Then go to step 5.
================================================== ==

Pop quiz, hot shot. If there's nothing wrong with the O-ring or wheel speed sensor, what's the point in replacing the hub bearing unit?

Forget what I said. Demand, DEMAND, I SAY! that both rear hub bearing units, wheel speed sensors, and O-rings be replaced, regardless of condition. Hell, DEMAND! they replace the front bearings, too. Good luck with that.

becuase maybe the car just isnt showing any signs of this yet. for instance...2 cars have the same production date and both with teh bad o-ring,sensor and hub bearing, sold to dfferent owners but car A is only driven 3k miles a year, car B is driven 30k miles a year. car B will of coarse show signs of wear, but car A wont since it isnt driven much. does that mean car A shouldnt get fixed?
now stop posting like you know everything....
PS...i corrected your post since you obviously havent figured otu that this is a recall and not a tsb (there is a difference)

[ocspray]

Your scenario doesn't make sense. Did you bother to read the portion of the TSB I quoted? This isn't a matter of "wear". If the O-ring has failed, then the wheel sensor should show signs of contamination and damage. If the wheel sensor shows signs of contamination and damage, the TSB clearly states to "remove the original sensor assembly, replace the corresponding rear hub bearing unit(s), and connect the new sensor’s wire harness". Simply put: If any damage is found, replace everything. There's no may, should, or give it some thought in that directive.

Before editing my posts and stating that I "obviously havent figured otu that this is a recall and not a tsb (there is a difference)", why don't you read some of my minutes-old posts where I clearly state that this is a "SAFETY RECALL". With regard to this not being a Technical Service Bulletin (TSB), I'll direct you to the original document, which is headed "Honda Service Bulletin 07-055". In fact, "Honda Service Bulletin 07-055" is above "Safety Recall: Rear ABS Wheel Speed Sensor and O-Ring Inspection", which would lead me to believe that a TSB can encompass a Safety Recall, but all Safety Recalls must be TSBs.

I don't know everything, and I don't pretend to, but perhaps, in this instance, I know more than you. Don't edit my posts, and please return them to their original, correct state.

[NIGHTHAWKSI]

Originally Posted by ocspray

Your scenario doesn't make sense. Did you bother to read the portion of the TSB I quoted? This isn't a matter of "wear". If the O-ring has failed, then the wheel sensor should show signs of contamination and damage. If the wheel sensor shows signs of contamination and damage, the TSB clearly states to "remove the original sensor assembly, replace the corresponding rear hub bearing unit(s), and connect the new sensor’s wire harness". Simply put: If any damage is found, replace everything. There's no may, should, or give it some thought in that directive.

Before editing my posts and stating that I "obviously havent figured otu that this is a recall and not a tsb (there is a difference)", why don't you read some of my minutes-old posts where I clearly state that this is a "SAFETY RECALL". With regard to this not being a Technical Service Bulletin (TSB), I'll direct you to the original document, which is headed "Honda Service Bulletin 07-055". In fact, "Honda Service Bulletin 07-055" is above "Safety Recall: Rear ABS Wheel Speed Sensor and O-Ring Inspection", which would lead me to believe that a TSB can encompass a Safety Recall, but all Safety Recalls must be TSBs.

I don't know everything, and I don't pretend to, but perhaps, in this instance, I know more than you. Don't edit my posts, and please return them to their original, correct state.

i still have to disagree. a TSB is a bulletin that is put out by the manufacturer to warn consumers/dealers that there MIGHT be a problem with a part and it sometimes need to be fixed, but not on all cars. a RECALL is a problem that has to be fixed because a range of VIN number has been claimed to be effected. but it seems as though honda is handeling a RECALL as a TSB and only doing the work when they think it is necessary. maybe honda never should have made this a recall becuase it clearly doesnt not fit the normal recall standards. should have been a TSB...
im not going to bother arguing your logic anymore becuase under normal "recall" standards this whole situation doesnt make sense.

[ocspray]

Let's go to a third party:

"Though an apparent nugget of good hope for consumers, a technical service bulletin is actually an advisory issued by a manufacturer for use by dealership service departments...These bulletins differ from recalls in that they are not considered safety or emissions issues and they usually apply only when your vehicle is in its warranty period (whereas a recall is "open" until the work has been performed). [emphasis mine] TSBs frequently (but not always) address a recurring problem and include illustrated instructions for repair, a list of the parts needed, the warranty status and the labor charge."

Based on the original Honda document and the above, I think we're both right, but you more than me. Maybe the difference is that this is a voluntary recall by Honda, not a government mandated one. Also, the Honda document isn't designed for consumers (unlike the notification letter), and since Honda needs a way to catalog all technical information (safety recall or TSB), it's easy for them to include a Safety Recall under a TSB designation. I do wonder how much involvement NHTSA has in approving a safety recall; I would presume they have to give it their blessing.

I don't have a problem with this being an Inspect, Then Replace recall. If the O-ring has failed, there should be clear evidence on the wheel sensor and inside the hub assembly. Another point I've mentioned is that wheel bearing failure is not an acute incident. Very noticeable noise and vibration will precede a wheel bearing failure long before wheel separation. If the hub bearing unit does fail after the Safety Recall procedure, it would be prudent to bring up this TSB for possible coverage.

In the future, I will only refer to this as a Safety Recall, which is documented by a TSB. I can't promise I'll stop posting like I know everything, but I'll try.

[Mateen]

Originally Posted by ocspray

On to the new hub bearing unit part number (good eye, Mateen). Honda has spent months determining what caused the failure and what cars are affected. Perhaps during the investigation, a change was made to the hub bearing unit to address a newfound improvement - "The original part was fine, but we can make it a little better.

Well if that is the case then why wouldn't they just change all hub bearing units? There must have been a reason for why they had to make improvements to the original hub bearing units. May be the the original hub bearing units were the culprit and they just don't want to go through the expense of changing all hub bearing units?

Originally Posted by ocspray

If the hub bearing unit does fail after the Safety Recall procedure, it would be prudent to bring up this TSB for possible coverage

Are you saying that if I take my car to the dealership and they find nothing wrong with it and the problem shows up after my warranty has expired, they will have to fix it without any cost to me?

[NIGHTHAWKSI]

Originally Posted by Mateen

Well if that is the case then why wouldn't they just change all hub bearing units? There must have been a reason for why they had to make improvements to the original hub bearing units. May be the the original hub bearing unit was the culprit and they just don't want to go through the expence of changing all hub bearing units?



Are you saying that if I take my car to the dealership and they find nothing wrong with it and the problem shows up after my warranty has expired, they will have to fix it without any cost to me?

1.thats my concern about this recall. somthing doesn seem right...

2.yes...since this is under a RECALL notice...this work can be done at any time during the cars life, 10k miles,100k miles, 1 year old or 10 yeads old.....it doesnt matter. no cost to you.

[Nychus]

This recall is Worded Quite 1/2 assed. My girl's 2000 Focus was part of a few recalls. None of the parts had failed. But the car was in the VIN range, so they replaced the part. I would say that this would not be so odd if they were replacing the Damaged sensor with the same sensor. But they are clearing saying 2 things here. We installed the o-ring inncorrectly and we are putting in a sensor with a new part number in. The reason why I bring up warranty is because this is a 2006/07 issue. 99% of these vehicles are UNDER warranty, frickin regardless to any TSB or recall. So if there are probs, they get fixed. Bottom line. My SI Sedan is 3 months old. My car is in the shop right damn now, getting the popping noise thing fixed and some molding by the passanger's side seat belt reattached because it hasn't been firmly attached since day one. I also have the hot cup holders you hear about. I told the dealership about both problems with in the first few weeks of ownership and they told me to get it repaired during my first service visit. The molding thing was a hoot,.. only after a service manager punched it a few times and was like,. "Hmm it's not staying in there". That was real classy. "Thanks for buying a $23k car, it's bad enough most of it is plastic, but here is some not even attached, and we'll fix it when your car hits around 4400 miles. So go home." Put that on the HONDA website. It wasn't till i talked to a different service manager (a sympathic Si owner) and brought the popping sound TSB with me during our ride-along did I get treatment one would expect from buying a new, top of the line vehicle. His reaction: "Dang this needs to be fixed, we'll order the proper parts and get this fixed ASAP" That's what should be said 100% of the time. So, OCSPRAY, am I being paranoid to wonder if the next thing to go on my car will be the rear bearings? HELL no. If the douche bags in Ohio couldn't install my plastic side panel propperly why should I expect my O-ring is in there right? My car is awesome! I love it. But I am beginning to worry. This is my 5th vehicle, 1st brand new. Not since my 1995 VW golf have I had to take ANY of my cars into get serviced for Manufacturer side errors. And i'll never buy VW again. This NEW SI has 2+ TSBs and a few more petty BS problems. And guess what? A petty BS problem is a still a problem and it is a load of crap that when a person with a new car has to go to get those fixed and they are treated as petty PITA. The whole point is that they would have never had to complain in the 1st place if GUESS WHAT GENIOUS!?! NO PETTY BS PROBLEMS WERE HAPPENING IN THE 1st PLACE! You must be a mechanic or a blind Honda-phile if you have no patience or sympathy for people with brand new frickin cars who have concerns when these brand new vehicles have issues. If your car is perfect and you know everything why are even in this forum section?

[Mateen]

Originally Posted by NIGHTHAWKSI

1.thats my concern about this recall. somthing doesn seem right...

2.yes...since this is under a RECALL notice...this work can be done at any time during the cars life, 10k miles,100k miles, 1 year old or 10 yeads old.....it doesnt matter. no cost to you.

My concern is after they have done the inspection (whether or not they have found any problems or any work needed to be done) and they make that punch mark on your VIN plate. Lets say that the same problem shows up at 80k miles. Are they still liable to fix this problem at no cost?

[ocspray]

I give up.

Nychus, there might be a TSB that applies to your Return key. You should look into it. When you find that perfect car, with the perfect service department, at a perfect price, start a new thread to tell the world.

Mateen, I've heard of selective hearing, and now you've demonstrated selective reading. Refer to your next to last post for several examples.

NIGHTHAWKSI, rather than define a problem, you're going with the oft used, nebulous "somthing doesn seem right..." In that, you are correct, but it's not the Safety Recall (as defined by a TSB) that "doesn seem right..."

You three aren't reading what I'm posting, and your replies are self-centered drivel. I'm no longer a professional mechanic, but I've been one, and I'll dare to say I have a better grasp of the situation than at least the three of you. I know my limitations, and I also know when I'm dealing with unreasonable people that would do well to learn their own. Call me smug, call me a know-it-all; I really don't care.

If you want to discuss the issue instead of rant and spout nonsensical arguments, I'll be happy to respond.

[ocspray]

Originally Posted by Mateen

My concern is after they have done the inspection (whether or not they have found any problems or any work needed to be done) and they make that punch mark on your VIN plate. Lets say that the same problem shows up at 60k miles. Are they still liable to fix this problem at no cost?

You would need to take this up with a service manager, but I believe that unless O-ring failure was definitively shown to have caused the failure after the Safety Recall procedure had been performed, Honda would have no obligation to perform the work for free. That said, if you had the Safety Recall inspection documentation in hand showing that no hub bearing units were replaced during the Safety Recall procedure, and you politely referred the service manager to that documentation, I could see the service manager possibly deciding to complete the work for free, given the history of the rear hub assembly.

See, that wasn't so bad, was it?

[Nychus]

Originally Posted by Mateen

My concern is after they have done the inspection (whether or not they have found any problems or any work needed to be done) and they make that punch mark on your VIN plate. Lets say that the same problem shows up at 80k miles. Are they still liable to fix this problem at no cost?

That is a very good point. They should, if the O ring is installed properly, at least install the new Sensor. And,...Most likely, after 80k miles,. you'll need new bearings anyway. :)

[Mateen]

ocspray.
Are you referring to my respond (post 288) to your following comment?

"On to the new hub bearing unit part number (good eye, Mateen). Honda has spent months determining what caused the failure and what cars are affected. Perhaps during the investigation, a change was made to the hub bearing unit to address a newfound improvement - "The original part was fine, but we can make it a little better."

Don't you think that this would make a consumer feel concerned? Why did they have to make improvements to the hub bearing units? Was there anything wrong with the originals?

[ocspray]

Yes, Mateen. Products are constantly upgraded and redesigned for a variety of reasons. If Honda puts better air bags in the MY2009 Civic, should they have to retrofit all '06-'07 models with "lesser" air bags?

Here's another, more cynical reason for the hub bearing unit model number change: Honda found a way to make the part cheaper, and almost as good as the original. Cheaper bearing, weaker alloy, cheesier seals; take your pick. Still want your "upgrade"?

[Nychus]

[quote=ocspray]I'm no longer a professional mechanic, but I've been one, [quote]

Called it.

[ocspray]

[quote=Nychus][quote=ocspray]I'm no longer a professional mechanic, but I've been one,

Called it.

Oh, the AGONY! Yes, you called it. I'm someone with actual PROFESSIONAL SKILL AND EXPERIENCE! Let's find the appropriate smilies...



Let me know if I missed any.

[Mateen]

Originally Posted by ocspray

Yes, Mateen. Products are constantly upgraded and redesigned for a variety of reasons. If Honda puts better air bags in the MY2009 Civic, should they have to retrofit all '07-'07 models with "lesser" air bags?

Here's another, more cynical reason for the hub bearing unit model number change: Honda found a way to make the part cheaper, and almost as good as the original. Cheaper bearing, weaker alloy, cheesier seals; take your pick. Still want your "upgrade"?

This product update was done because of a RECALL. Listen to yourself.
Why would they even think of making a part cheaper with weaker alloy......
They are trying to fix a problem and pretty serious one to save their a$$.
So while they have this problem on their hands, they are thinking to themselves..Hmm, How do we redesign this product cheaper, with weaker alloys?
I DO NOT THINK SO..............

[ocspray]

Originally Posted by Mateen

My concern is after they have done the inspection (whether or not they have found any problems or any work needed to be done) and they make that punch mark on your VIN plate. Lets say that the same problem shows up at 80k miles. Are they still liable to fix this problem at no cost?

Originally Posted by Nychus

That is a very good point. They should, if the O ring is installed properly, at least install the new Sensor. And,...Most likely, after 80k miles,. you'll need new bearings anyway. :)

Nychus, the question isn't should they cover it, it's will they have to cover it. I'd be very surprised if they legally have to cover it unless the failure could be directly linked to the O-ring Safety Recall.