Changing Honda MTF to GM Syncromesh FM

07 Figi Blue Si · 08-08-2007, 08:31 PM

I have tranny grinding issues, and have done some reasearch on the topic. Seem this issue goes way back, affects not only our Si's but older ones, Acura CL, TL, TSX, Type-R, Etc. Many have switched to the GM Syncromesh, with or without FM (friction modified). After purchasing some myself, and speaking with a GM top level mechanic, he suggested also using an additional friction modifier for the LSD on our cars. Others cite that when they added an LSD to their cars (ones that doesn't come stock), some had to add this additional modifier for the LSD. Please note that the "friction modified GM Syncomesh" is only modified for gear wear, not LSD clutch packs!!! I have read many posts on this, and nearly all fail to mention the additional modifier that I feel is necessary. So I will also add the LSD modifier as recommened by GM. Any opinions/counters to this opinion? Anyone had trouble with their LSD after making the swap to GM, Amsoil, or Redline MTF?

***Zeuceone*** · 08-08-2007, 08:33 PM

i added gm synch. fm to my car about 10k miles ago and have no problems with the lsd.

07 Figi Blue Si · 08-08-2007, 08:36 PM

Are you aware of the additional modifier? This is required for any LSD I've ever dealt with, car, truck, etc. You know, the little bottle of stuff you added to the pumpkin after pumping in the 90 weight gear lube, as a truck example. Maybe our LSD is so light duty that its not really required. But it certainly can't hurt, only help. But without it, it certainly could cause the LSD to prematurely wear. Just my take. Anyone know if the Honda MTF is exactly the same for LSD vs. non-LSD applications? If the same, why is it the same?

***Zeuceone*** · 08-08-2007, 08:40 PM

i didnt know about the modifier. what pumpkin?

07 Figi Blue Si · 08-08-2007, 10:03 PM

Also, let me clarify something here immediately. There are three (3), not two (2) GM products I am discussing here.

-There is unmodified GM Syncromesh GM Part # 12345349.

-There is friction-modifed GM Syncromesh GM Part # 12377916. Please note that the friction modifer refered to in the latter part IS NOT THE SAME FRICTION MODIFIER AS FOR LSD REQUIREMENTS.

-Then there is a (LSD) friction modifier to add to either of the above two fluids, GM Part # 1052358. It is called "GM limited slip axle lubricant additive".

See http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2001-01-1993 for details on what this LSD friction modifier (adder) does for the LSD clutches. These Si LSD's have clutches, right??? Someone please confirm, or is Cusco and Kaaz completely different???
__________________________________________________ _______________
"Pumpkin" refers to the rear end ring-pinion housing or "ball" that you see in or close to the middle of the rear axel (and front for 4wd) on pickup trucks and rwd cars. I was just using it as an example in my discussion, not in direct refrence to the Si of course. Just general mechanical.

S Eye · 08-08-2007, 10:05 PM

*Subscribed

07 Figi Blue Si · 08-08-2007, 10:12 PM

What the heck do you mean by *subscribed? Typo, or are you lost from another forum?

Firestrife · 08-09-2007, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 07 Figi Blue Si

What the heck do you mean by *subscribed? Typo, or are you lost from another forum?

he means that he subscribed it so he can keep up to date on it in the User CP.

S Eye · 08-09-2007, 11:00 AM

that ^

TommyD · 08-09-2007, 11:25 AM

You are trusting someone from GM?

Put some Amsoil in there and call it a day

***Excalibur*** · 08-09-2007, 11:46 AM

subscribed. I don't think mine was friction modifier anything.

bokeh · 08-09-2007, 11:55 AM

I think it has been concluded that any type of new transmission fluid is just a bandaid and NOT a 100% fix...

The 3rd gear is jus a flaw of the design...

***Excalibur*** · 08-09-2007, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bokeh

I think it has been concluded that any type of new transmission fluid is just a bandaid and NOT a 100% fix...

The 3rd gear is jus a flaw of the design...

Really, I wasn't aware of that. Who concluded that out of curiousity?

GlxyGry06Si · 08-09-2007, 12:04 PM

well i have the new tranny fluid from honda. works like a charm. yeah who concluded.

bokeh · 08-09-2007, 12:24 PM

Give me a couple to find it... EDGE is slow...

DATA02 · 08-09-2007, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 07 Figi Blue Si

What the heck do you mean by *subscribed? Typo, or are you lost from another forum?

are you lost? Noobs FTMFL!

bokeh · 08-09-2007, 12:39 PM

3rd gear fix, what it actually takes inside transmission....

For those of you who have had the HONDA mtf replaced by HONDA

I guess u can say the info comes from tom1222...

phaktory · 08-09-2007, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bokeh

3rd gear fix, what it actually takes inside transmission....

For those of you who have had the HONDA mtf replaced by HONDA

I guess u can say the info comes from tom1222...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom1222

And you thought correctly

I have no idea what gear links are but whatever they are I would assume that they are the same in every Civic Si's transmission. If so, why do only certain Si's have this grinding issue and others don't? Perhaps the gearlinks for some were custom stretched at the factory

I don't know about you.. but after reading the above in one of the posts you referenced, I don't think I would take his word on crap other than he's not having the problem.. certainly not someone I would QFT..

bokeh · 08-10-2007, 10:22 AM

Ok so maybe the word "concluded" wasn't the best choice...

But its definitely a possibility...

Also, there's a chance that "not everyone" has the 3rd gear problem because everyone is in different locations and have different driving styles...

The 3rd gear problem OnLY occurs for me when its cold outside.... and so if I jus let her warm up... It drives perfectly fine.... I've never changed MTF fluid...

And for those of you that have, sure it may seem like amsoil/rp worked.. But a lot of people make that conclusion waaaay to early as well... If u search, u will see that people say the problems returned...

For now, I'll wait for a real solution if its ever found... Jus warm up ur car people... And im DEFINITELY not putting any of that RP gear oil in there...

***Excalibur*** · 08-10-2007, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bokeh

Ok so maybe the word "concluded" wasn't the best choice...

But its definitely a possibility...

Also, there's a chance that "not everyone" has the 3rd gear problem because everyone is in different locations and have different driving styles...

The 3rd gear problem OnLY occurs for me when its cold outside.... and so if I jus let her warm up... It drives perfectly fine.... I've never changed MTF fluid...

And for those of you that have, sure it may seem like amsoil/rp worked.. But a lot of people make that conclusion waaaay to early as well... If u search, u will see that people say the problems returned...

For now, I'll wait for a real solution if its ever found... Jus warm up ur car people... And im DEFINITELY not putting any of that RP gear oil in there...

why won't you? You wouldn't even put the new honda stuff in?

08-08-2007, 08:31 PM	#1 (permalink)
07 Figi Blue Si Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: N. Ca Posts: 198 Lance iTrader: 0 / 0%	Changing Honda MTF to GM Syncromesh FM I have tranny grinding issues, and have done some reasearch on the topic. Seem this issue goes way back, affects not only our Si's but older ones, Acura CL, TL, TSX, Type-R, Etc. Many have switched to the GM Syncromesh, with or without FM (friction modified). After purchasing some myself, and speaking with a GM top level mechanic, he suggested also using an additional friction modifier for the LSD on our cars. Others cite that when they added an LSD to their cars (ones that doesn't come stock), some had to add this additional modifier for the LSD. Please note that the "friction modified GM Syncomesh" is only modified for gear wear, not LSD clutch packs!!! I have read many posts on this, and nearly all fail to mention the additional modifier that I feel is necessary. So I will also add the LSD modifier as recommened by GM. Any opinions/counters to this opinion? Anyone had trouble with their LSD after making the swap to GM, Amsoil, or Redline MTF?

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08-08-2007, 08:36 PM	#3 (permalink)
07 Figi Blue Si Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: N. Ca Posts: 198 Lance iTrader: 0 / 0%	Are you aware of the additional modifier? This is required for any LSD I've ever dealt with, car, truck, etc. You know, the little bottle of stuff you added to the pumpkin after pumping in the 90 weight gear lube, as a truck example. Maybe our LSD is so light duty that its not really required. But it certainly can't hurt, only help. But without it, it certainly could cause the LSD to prematurely wear. Just my take. Anyone know if the Honda MTF is exactly the same for LSD vs. non-LSD applications? If the same, why is it the same?

08-08-2007, 10:03 PM	#5 (permalink)
07 Figi Blue Si Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: N. Ca Posts: 198 Lance iTrader: 0 / 0%	Also, let me clarify something here immediately. There are three (3), not two (2) GM products I am discussing here. -There is unmodified GM Syncromesh GM Part # 12345349. -There is friction-modifed GM Syncromesh GM Part # 12377916. Please note that the friction modifer refered to in the latter part IS NOT THE SAME FRICTION MODIFIER AS FOR LSD REQUIREMENTS. -Then there is a (LSD) friction modifier to add to either of the above two fluids, GM Part # 1052358. It is called "GM limited slip axle lubricant additive". See http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2001-01-1993 for details on what this LSD friction modifier (adder) does for the LSD clutches. These Si LSD's have clutches, right??? Someone please confirm, or is Cusco and Kaaz completely different??? __________________________________________________ _______________ "Pumpkin" refers to the rear end ring-pinion housing or "ball" that you see in or close to the middle of the rear axel (and front for 4wd) on pickup trucks and rwd cars. I was just using it as an example in my discussion, not in direct refrence to the Si of course. Just general mechanical.

08-08-2007, 10:05 PM	#6 (permalink)
S Eye Senior Member Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 133 iTrader: 0 / 0%	*Subscribed

08-08-2007, 10:12 PM	#7 (permalink)
07 Figi Blue Si Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: N. Ca Posts: 198 Lance iTrader: 0 / 0%	What the heck do you mean by *subscribed? Typo, or are you lost from another forum?

08-09-2007, 11:00 AM	#9 (permalink)
S Eye Senior Member Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 133 iTrader: 0 / 0%	that ^

08-09-2007, 11:25 AM	#10 (permalink)
TommyD Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,367 iTrader: 0 / 0%	You are trusting someone from GM? Put some Amsoil in there and call it a day

08-09-2007, 11:46 AM	#11 (permalink)
*Excalibur* VIP Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Converse, TX. Age: 25 Posts: 9,800 Jeremy iTrader: 25 / 100%	subscribed. I don't think mine was friction modifier anything.

08-09-2007, 11:55 AM	#12 (permalink)
bokeh Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Greensboro Posts: 209 Joe Woo iTrader: 0 / 0%	I think it has been concluded that any type of new transmission fluid is just a bandaid and NOT a 100% fix... The 3rd gear is jus a flaw of the design...

08-09-2007, 12:04 PM	#14 (permalink)
GlxyGry06Si Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Jacksonville, AR Age: 23 Posts: 7,335 iTrader: 3 / 100%	well i have the new tranny fluid from honda. works like a charm. yeah who concluded.

08-09-2007, 12:24 PM	#15 (permalink)
bokeh Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Greensboro Posts: 209 Joe Woo iTrader: 0 / 0%	Give me a couple to find it... EDGE is slow...

08-09-2007, 12:39 PM	#17 (permalink)
bokeh Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Greensboro Posts: 209 Joe Woo iTrader: 0 / 0%	3rd gear fix, what it actually takes inside transmission.... For those of you who have had the HONDA mtf replaced by HONDA I guess u can say the info comes from tom1222...

08-10-2007, 10:22 AM	#19 (permalink)
bokeh Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Greensboro Posts: 209 Joe Woo iTrader: 0 / 0%	Ok so maybe the word "concluded" wasn't the best choice... But its definitely a possibility... Also, there's a chance that "not everyone" has the 3rd gear problem because everyone is in different locations and have different driving styles... The 3rd gear problem OnLY occurs for me when its cold outside.... and so if I jus let her warm up... It drives perfectly fine.... I've never changed MTF fluid... And for those of you that have, sure it may seem like amsoil/rp worked.. But a lot of people make that conclusion waaaay to early as well... If u search, u will see that people say the problems returned... For now, I'll wait for a real solution if its ever found... Jus warm up ur car people... And im DEFINITELY not putting any of that RP gear oil in there...