Converting DBW to throttle cable possible?

Fa5tCo · 06-11-2007, 11:45 AM

So given our lack of solid engine management for our new Si's. I was thinking.

If someone happened to have an A3(or myabe even an A2) ecu laying around and had Kpro installed on it, then converted the maf on the si(or is it a MAP) to whatever the a3 uses MAP or MAF and then used an a2 or a3 throttle body, throttle cable and gas pedal assembly....could this in theory. Give us FG users a viable option for engine management? I realize the wiring harnesses are prob different and someone would have to make a jumper harness for them but that isint to difficult. I also realize it seems like allot of work but I may have access to all of those parts, the only thing I may need to purchase is the Hondata Kpro for the ecu....and if it'll work, well it would be better than waiting a year for Kpro for our cars to be released.

Thanks for any input, and lets try and keep the smart ass comments to a minimum thanks.

06RALLYREDSI · 06-11-2007, 11:54 AM

diffrent motor outputs diffrent ecus doubt it would work

XSRCivic · 06-11-2007, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 06RALLYREDSI

diffrent motor outputs diffrent ecus doubt it would work

Doesnt matter if the ECUs are different, K-Pro would make it work. Other than the immobilizer being built into our ECUs, I don't see this not working. Before the ECU could be swapped without the ignition/immobilizer being touched. Apparently this no longer works so you'd probably need those parts too which should be pretty close to gravy.

It would take some time, some strategic planning and a good bit of custom work but it can be done.

You would need:
-Conversion harness for different ECU (if it is different, might be interchangable)
-K20A3/A3/Whatever throttle body,cable,pedal assembly, Hondata ECU
-Figure out how to bypass the immobilizer system so that the new Hondata ECU can start the car.

You'll probably end up spending as much or possibly more money than what it costs for the Hondata unit (if it ever comes out) just for parts. Good luck, maybe you can find a wrecked up rsx with all parts still in good condition.

**ethlar** · 06-11-2007, 12:49 PM

as they say, with the proper application of money, anything is possible

Fa5tCo · 06-11-2007, 01:23 PM

I pretty much have an a3 ecu, a3 throttle body, a3 throttle cable, a3 accelerator pedal set-up, and the a3 MAP sensor.

I might need a wiring harness (will have to check and see if they are compatible. if they are then I might not need to worry about that part)

So if I got K Pro put on the A3 ecu I might be in business. It cant be THAT difficult to fab everything up

the only thing i didnt think of was the immobilizer....THAT might be the biggest PITA. Ill have to do some asking on that one....

si_turbo · 06-11-2007, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fa5tCo

So given our lack of solid engine management for our new Si's. I was thinking.

If someone happened to have an A3(or myabe even an A2) ecu laying around and had Kpro installed on it, then converted the maf on the si(or is it a MAP) to whatever the a3 uses MAP or MAF and then used an a2 or a3 throttle body, throttle cable and gas pedal assembly....could this in theory. Give us FG users a viable option for engine management? I realize the wiring harnesses are prob different and someone would have to make a jumper harness for them but that isint to difficult. I also realize it seems like allot of work but I may have access to all of those parts, the only thing I may need to purchase is the Hondata Kpro for the ecu....and if it'll work, well it would be better than waiting a year for Kpro for our cars to be released.

Thanks for any input, and lets try and keep the smart ass comments to a minimum thanks.

anything is possible as long as you believe in it

***ILL FG2*** · 06-11-2007, 03:57 PM

or you could do one better and get some itbs with the ecu and Kpro

Fa5tCo · 06-11-2007, 05:31 PM

itb's would be pretty sick. but with all the dust and crap flying around in the air out here id definitely need to figure out a way to filter them....i just want to be able to do a set of aggressive cams, or pick up that extra few hp that only a true tune can give you.

sf-si-02 · 06-11-2007, 05:39 PM

NO. I believe all motor sensors are identical (short of some repinning if any). However what will not work, is getting the ecu to read out to the display. The newer display is not compatible with the former ecu's. How do I know? Look at the cluster in the hasport fg2... they had to change clusters, as there is no easy adapter between the newer displays and the old

So unless you want to use a dc5, ep3 or older cluster, I'd say you are pretty much siht out of luck

Highrev1 · 06-11-2007, 06:26 PM

To elaborate on ^^that guys post. Gauge cluster is needed.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/p...ner/index.html

See the gauge cluster inthis article.
http://www.hondatuningmagazine.com/f...port_civic_si/

You could get a S2K Gauge cluster to work then it would be pretty sick

http://www.marklamond.co.uk/products/s2000/s2000.htm

blueroadster · 06-11-2007, 06:37 PM

The largest problem as others have mentioned is the immobilizer. The ECM stores the VIN of the car as well as the immobilizer code. If you stick an unmatched key into the ignition and crank the car over, the engine will run for a few seconds until the ECM sees that the code on the key does not match that stored in the ECM. At that point, the ECM will cut fuel.

Add to that on earlier 2006 models, the ECM is tied to the gauge cluster thereby meaning that if you need to replace the ECM, you have to also replace the gauge cluster itself (it at least makes the car more difficult for a thief to nab). Later 2006 and all 2007 models do not have this issue.

The ECM sends data to the gauge cluster via a CAN so it won't be that easy to swap out gauges with a non-CAN display.

IMHO, the only way you are going to see a K-Pro type of device for this generation of the Si is in the form of a piggy-back unit where the stock ECM still retains some control over the systems on the car. If Hondata were to release a K-Pro that completely replaces the ECM on this car then they would have to do so in a manner that disables the immobilizer entirely (ain't going to happen and if they do, then the thieft rate will increase significantly). When K-Pro is released, I'd really like to know what things can no longer function and what things can be changed when compared to running the stock ECM by itself.

***Zeuceone*** · 06-11-2007, 06:40 PM

try what they did with that fit where they put a k20 in it.

blueroadster · 06-11-2007, 06:44 PM

BTW...I don't believe that DBW hogwash as being an excuse for the delay of K-Pro. Instead of a cable, an electronic signal is sent from the throttle body to indicate the plate position to the ECM via a 0-5V reading. This is actually better since the output is being sent directly to the computer in digital form.

Fa5tCo · 06-11-2007, 08:05 PM

yeah the more I look into it, the more it looks as though it is almost impossible. It may be able to be done, but even though I have most of the parts already spending an additional 1k to have it sooner rather than later prob isint the brightest idea.

I guess Ill just have to wait till a Kpro unit or something like an AEM EMS comes out for our cars.

damn they need to hurry up haha

Fa5tCo · 06-11-2007, 08:06 PM

oh and thanks for the help everyone. If other people think of something feel free to chime in. Maybe someone will think of something the rest of us overlooked.

benmunger · 06-11-2007, 08:10 PM

gauge cluster = problem

key immobilizer = not a problem ...
Kpro can turn it off

Fa5tCo · 06-11-2007, 08:16 PM

wait a sec I have a 2007, so I dont need to worry about the cluster problem correct?

So im just back to the immobilizer thing.

So I guess the only thing I need to know is if the a2 ecu with Kpro wired into my car would disable the immobilizer.

blueroadster · 06-11-2007, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fa5tCo

wait a sec I have a 2007, so I dont need to worry about the cluster problem correct?

So im just back to the immobilizer thing.

So I guess the only thing I need to know is if the a2 ecu with Kpro wired into my car would disable the immobilizer.

It is not a gauge cluster problem so to speak...On early 2006 models, the only way you can replace the ECM is to swap out the gauge cluster as well. On later models, you can get away with replacing the ECM while keeping the gauge cluster intact. If one were able to diable the immobilizer, then you would not have to worry about the cluster swap. You'd only have to worry about the increased ease of theft.

udumkid · 06-12-2007, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Highrev1

To elaborate on ^^that guys post. Gauge cluster is needed.

Why??

dannn · 06-12-2007, 10:38 PM

you would need more than just a jumper harness.
the fg2 use different bus networks to transmit and receive signals
newer cars now need certain control modules to be registered to the vehicle in order to be recognized on the network, sp there would be more than just aligning the key to the ecu.

you would need the whole harness from the a2 motor with kpro for k20a2
and then hope all the connectors and sensors are the same
most likely you would need to replace a few sensors.

also the immobilizer on the si would have to be able to talk to the kpro ecu.

06-11-2007, 11:45 AM	#1 (permalink)
Fa5tCo Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 21 iTrader: 0 / 0%	Converting DBW to throttle cable possible? So given our lack of solid engine management for our new Si's. I was thinking. If someone happened to have an A3(or myabe even an A2) ecu laying around and had Kpro installed on it, then converted the maf on the si(or is it a MAP) to whatever the a3 uses MAP or MAF and then used an a2 or a3 throttle body, throttle cable and gas pedal assembly....could this in theory. Give us FG users a viable option for engine management? I realize the wiring harnesses are prob different and someone would have to make a jumper harness for them but that isint to difficult. I also realize it seems like allot of work but I may have access to all of those parts, the only thing I may need to purchase is the Hondata Kpro for the ecu....and if it'll work, well it would be better than waiting a year for Kpro for our cars to be released. Thanks for any input, and lets try and keep the smart ass comments to a minimum thanks.

06-11-2007, 12:49 PM	#4 (permalink)
ethlar n00b retro whore Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 10,832 iTrader: 5 / 100%	as they say, with the proper application of money, anything is possible __________________ 8thCivic FAQ\|NEW Marketplace Rules

06-11-2007, 03:57 PM	#7 (permalink)
*ILL FG2* I hate you Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Chicago/Northbrook, IL Posts: 1,477 AJ iTrader: 1 / 100%	or you could do one better and get some itbs with the ecu and Kpro __________________ "8thcivic.com where everyone holds hands, nutswings and paints everything in time attack fashion" -Michael Bolton

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06-11-2007, 11:54 AM	#2 (permalink)
06RALLYREDSI Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: CENTRAL,CALI Posts: 856 K20 rocket iTrader: 0 / 0%	diffrent motor outputs diffrent ecus doubt it would work

06-11-2007, 01:23 PM	#5 (permalink)
Fa5tCo Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 21 iTrader: 0 / 0%	I pretty much have an a3 ecu, a3 throttle body, a3 throttle cable, a3 accelerator pedal set-up, and the a3 MAP sensor. I might need a wiring harness (will have to check and see if they are compatible. if they are then I might not need to worry about that part) So if I got K Pro put on the A3 ecu I might be in business. It cant be THAT difficult to fab everything up the only thing i didnt think of was the immobilizer....THAT might be the biggest PITA. Ill have to do some asking on that one....

06-11-2007, 05:31 PM	#8 (permalink)
Fa5tCo Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 21 iTrader: 0 / 0%	itb's would be pretty sick. but with all the dust and crap flying around in the air out here id definitely need to figure out a way to filter them....i just want to be able to do a set of aggressive cams, or pick up that extra few hp that only a true tune can give you.

06-11-2007, 05:39 PM	#9 (permalink)
sf-si-02 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: your mom (so cal) Posts: 630 iTrader: 3 / 100%	NO. I believe all motor sensors are identical (short of some repinning if any). However what will not work, is getting the ecu to read out to the display. The newer display is not compatible with the former ecu's. How do I know? Look at the cluster in the hasport fg2... they had to change clusters, as there is no easy adapter between the newer displays and the old So unless you want to use a dc5, ep3 or older cluster, I'd say you are pretty much siht out of luck

06-11-2007, 06:26 PM	#10 (permalink)
Highrev1 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: PM me NothernNJ Installs/Details Posts: 3,823 iTrader: 1 / 100%	To elaborate on ^^that guys post. Gauge cluster is needed. http://www.motortrend.com/features/p...ner/index.html See the gauge cluster inthis article. http://www.hondatuningmagazine.com/f...port_civic_si/ You could get a S2K Gauge cluster to work then it would be pretty sick http://www.marklamond.co.uk/products/s2000/s2000.htm

06-11-2007, 06:37 PM	#11 (permalink)
blueroadster Senior Member Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Maryland Posts: 3,573 iTrader: 7 / 100%	The largest problem as others have mentioned is the immobilizer. The ECM stores the VIN of the car as well as the immobilizer code. If you stick an unmatched key into the ignition and crank the car over, the engine will run for a few seconds until the ECM sees that the code on the key does not match that stored in the ECM. At that point, the ECM will cut fuel. Add to that on earlier 2006 models, the ECM is tied to the gauge cluster thereby meaning that if you need to replace the ECM, you have to also replace the gauge cluster itself (it at least makes the car more difficult for a thief to nab). Later 2006 and all 2007 models do not have this issue. The ECM sends data to the gauge cluster via a CAN so it won't be that easy to swap out gauges with a non-CAN display. IMHO, the only way you are going to see a K-Pro type of device for this generation of the Si is in the form of a piggy-back unit where the stock ECM still retains some control over the systems on the car. If Hondata were to release a K-Pro that completely replaces the ECM on this car then they would have to do so in a manner that disables the immobilizer entirely (ain't going to happen and if they do, then the thieft rate will increase significantly). When K-Pro is released, I'd really like to know what things can no longer function and what things can be changed when compared to running the stock ECM by itself.

06-11-2007, 06:44 PM	#13 (permalink)
blueroadster Senior Member Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Maryland Posts: 3,573 iTrader: 7 / 100%	BTW...I don't believe that DBW hogwash as being an excuse for the delay of K-Pro. Instead of a cable, an electronic signal is sent from the throttle body to indicate the plate position to the ECM via a 0-5V reading. This is actually better since the output is being sent directly to the computer in digital form.

06-11-2007, 08:05 PM	#14 (permalink)
Fa5tCo Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 21 iTrader: 0 / 0%	yeah the more I look into it, the more it looks as though it is almost impossible. It may be able to be done, but even though I have most of the parts already spending an additional 1k to have it sooner rather than later prob isint the brightest idea. I guess Ill just have to wait till a Kpro unit or something like an AEM EMS comes out for our cars. damn they need to hurry up haha

06-11-2007, 08:06 PM	#15 (permalink)
Fa5tCo Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 21 iTrader: 0 / 0%	oh and thanks for the help everyone. If other people think of something feel free to chime in. Maybe someone will think of something the rest of us overlooked.

06-11-2007, 08:10 PM	#16 (permalink)
benmunger Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pembroke Pines, FL Posts: 625 iTrader: 3 / 100%	gauge cluster = problem key immobilizer = not a problem ... Kpro can turn it off

06-11-2007, 08:16 PM	#17 (permalink)
Fa5tCo Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 21 iTrader: 0 / 0%	wait a sec I have a 2007, so I dont need to worry about the cluster problem correct? So im just back to the immobilizer thing. So I guess the only thing I need to know is if the a2 ecu with Kpro wired into my car would disable the immobilizer.

06-12-2007, 10:38 PM	#20 (permalink)
dannn Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 516 iTrader: 0 / 0%	you would need more than just a jumper harness. the fg2 use different bus networks to transmit and receive signals newer cars now need certain control modules to be registered to the vehicle in order to be recognized on the network, sp there would be more than just aligning the key to the ecu. you would need the whole harness from the a2 motor with kpro for k20a2 and then hope all the connectors and sensors are the same most likely you would need to replace a few sensors. also the immobilizer on the si would have to be able to talk to the kpro ecu.