Third Gear Getting Worse..

[MrPanther]

The third gear CRUNCH everyone is now acustomed to is growing worse for me. Now there is a slight grind. It is steadily getting worse. Guys, I can FEEL that its only a matter of time before my third gear syncros are compltely worn down, rendering the gear useless. I have been granny shifting for months now, ever since I had to pay for a new clutch.

My car has been sitting at the dealership for a week now...


Service manager said he had to refer to my case manager at Honda Corp. After getting our attourney involved the first case manager passed it on to "Ty" in california, THE head honda warranty guy in North America. So far they are denying knowledge of *any* problems with 3rd gear in the Si's.. Right now my dad, who is in New York, our lawyer, the service manager at Honda, and Ty in Cali are on a conference call. I just learned they flew in the first case manager into Memphis to see my car personally.


Excuse me?? So they are willing to spend hundreds to fly this woman down from Honda HQ and give her a hotel to prove that they shouldnt honor the warranty? They are spending as much as it would cost to fix it... wow...

Just some of my experiances thus far...

The last 3 times I have been to my dealership, I have asked for the TSB for the reflash, and yes my VIN is affected. 3 Times they have denied knowledge of the TSB.

The last 3 times I have been to my dealership, I have asked for the New MTF, and 3 times they have said there is no new manual trans fluid.

When I first got to the dealership, you could cut the skepticism with a KNIFE. The service manager just gave this look that absolutely said "hey kid, were not going to fix your f******* transmission"

The lady at honda ( 1st rep ) initially stated that my air intake voided my ENTIRE WARRANTY. I reminded her of something called the Magnuson-Moss Warrnanty Act. Guess what? She backpeddled.. and said "nevermind". The rep from honda said and I quote," Why should we keep fixing what a kid is tearing up?"

Friends, this could be a turning point for all who have third gear problems. The rep has been flown out to my dealership. Along with that the HEAD Honda NA warranty guy is in on this. Help me provide proof that this 3rd gear problem is NOT an isolated case. We could easily get a new TSB that we all deserve.

WOLFCHASE HONDA - Memphis, TN


UPDATE May 30th, 2007

So its been a couple of weeks since I've reported whats been going on with Honda. I had to go out of town to Atlanta for business purposes for a little over a week so that is the main reason for the delay.

Basically, since I last reported, all we have been doing is trying to set up a meeting with the service manager from the dealership, and the Honda lady, Chris. The meeting took place last week and consisted of the two aformentioned names and my mom and step dad. I stayed out of it because I just have too much emotional attachment and I didn't think I could easily keep my cool. We came with the argument that third gear is a fairly widespread problem. We brought proof.

This thread contains all of the articles and threads that we printed out. When I have more time I will list them out so this can hopefully be a starting point for others in my situation. The only things not covered in this thread that we brought to their attention were two things:

A) The fact that we were never informed of the new MTF.
B) The fact that we were never offered the reflash.

And thats basically it. Chris said third gear synchros and gear would be replaced, with the stipulation that third gear would NOT be replaced an additional time.

Without the information that I got largely from this thread, they simply would have not offered the repar. The input from these guys really made the case: NIGHTHAWKSI, GlennS, SiCop, Seemund, illusionstwice, Tastycakes, and Paradox Lost. 8thcivic ftw

[NIGHTHAWKSI]

print these out and hand it to them...that should be a good start

Third gear not fully engaging/popping out...

the 3rd gear issue

GM Syncromesh Tranny Fluid

AMSOIL MTF = butter smooth!!!

Finally!! Honda fixin 3rd gear crunch

Problem with 3rd Gear?

[MrPanther]

Originally Posted by NIGHTHAWKSI

Third gear not fully engaging/popping out...

the 3rd gear issue

GM Syncromesh Tranny Fluid

AMSOIL MTF = butter smooth!!!

Finally!! Honda fixin 3rd gear crunch

Problem with 3rd Gear?

Thank you friend. Do you experience any crunch or noise in third gear?

[cojaro]

Goodie, I'll make sure never to go to Wolfchase Honda then.

[NIGHTHAWKSI]

Originally Posted by MrPanther

Thank you friend. Do you experience any crunch or noise in third gear?

yes i did...i replaced it with the gm synchromesh and i have no more problems. and one of those threads i found is about the gm synchromesh fluid and another is about the amsoil and how much better they are over the hoda mtf.

[GlennS]

See if Honda knows anything about this, from Edmunds.com:

Component Description:
5. POWER TRAIN: MANUAL TRANSMISSION Bulletin Number: 1205
Bulletin Date: DEC 2005

Vehicle: 2006 Honda Civic

Summary:
TRANSMISSION GRINDS AT SHIFTS, SKIP SHIFTING.
( NHTSA ITEM NUMBER - 10018868 )

My '06 EX coupe (MT) has a "notchy" feel when shifing from 2nd gear, into 3rd gear. (A "resistance," if you will.) I seem to notice it the most in cooler weather.

Regards,
Glenn in CT

[MrPanther]

NightHawk, that seems to be a good fix, but since the transmission is probably already severely worn, I will only change the MTF if/when they fix this crap.

Cojaro what dealership did you do business with in Memphis? Dobbs?

Also something to think about. Ok so thinking about rev-hang for a moment. In a direct throttle linkage car with no DBW there is no rev hang. I am correct in saying that right?

In a "normal" non DBW car when the clutch is put down, the revs drop instantly. After the clutch is engaged, a person down shifts immediately. When I say down shift I mean 2nd to 3rd or 5th tp 6th etc. This works well because with the immediate shift, the RPMs are already rev matched to the next gear. With a non-reflashed FG2, the rev hang is a good ~1.5 seconds. If I shift NORMALLY like on the above stated car, the RPMs are still a few thousand too high to be matched, causing the SYNCHRO to work overtime. Maybe this is why Honda released the reflash?

Neverthe less, I had the car 6 months before the reflash was made available, and its been almost another 6 months since its been available. I have tried to get the reflash to no avail.

[MrPanther]

Originally Posted by GlennS

See if they (Honda) knows anything about this, from Edmunds.com:

Component Description:
5. POWER TRAIN: MANUAL TRANSMISSION Bulletin Number: 1205
Bulletin Date: DEC 2005

Vehicle: 2006 Honda Civic

Summary:
TRANSMISSION GRINDS AT SHIFTS, SKIP SHIFTING.
( NHTSA ITEM NUMBER - 10018868 )

My '06 EX coupe (MT) has a "notchy" feel when shifing from 2nd gear, into 3rd gear. (A "resistance" if you will.) I seem to notice it the most in cooler weather.

Regards,
Glenn in CT

Thanks! What exactly is this? Is this a record documented by Honda or Edmunds? Keep this stuff comming, we are formally documenting a LARGE amount of complaints and records of this. This will be going in a fax this evening that Honda corporate people WILL see.

The matter is developing, Ty is stalling another conference call, I think he is talking to HIS superiors.

[cojaro]

Originally Posted by MrPanther

Cojaro what dealership did you do business with in Memphis? Dobbs?

For now is Dobbs on Covington Pike. My parents go to Brian Massey Imports (also on Covington Pike) and I'll probably end up going there soon instead of Dobbs.

[GlennS]

UPDATED:

"Is this a record documented by Honda or Edmunds?"

According to Edmunds.com, it seems to be a Technical Service Bulletin, from Honda. One of 11 they list. See the Edmunds link I posted above to see all 11. [Edit: Actually, it's a complaint to NHTSA.]

The NHTSA reference is for the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. They have an Office of Defects Investigation sub page. That office has a section on Technical Service Bulletins:

"The Technical Service Bulletins Search Engine will allow searches of summaries of the Manufacturers' Technical Service Bulletins by single year, make and model."

They list the TSB (1205) on their website, HERE.
To get to it, do a "Quick Search" search on NHTSA Item Number: 10018868

The first 4 items are about Accords, but scroll down to the 5th item listed, and you'll see the first Civic issue listed.

Now, when you get to the Civic, click on "Get Summary" on the right, and you'll see the following:

Make: HONDA
Model: CIVIC
Year: 2006
Service Bulletin Number: 1205
NHTSA Item Number: 10018868
Summary Description:
TRANSMISSION GRINDS AT SHIFTS, SKIP SHIFTING. *TT

Note that the summary has a "*TT" at the end of it. As I did not know what that meant, I called their toll-free telephone number: 1-888-327-4236.

The woman who answered told me that The *TT means one of their investigators looked into the issue, did not find a safety-related problem, and closed out their investigation. (Because their primary mission regards automobile saftey-related issues, not performance issues).

However...

She also said that the investigator(s) indicated there was a fix available and--if you pay for it--you can get a copy their report. (Don't know what's in the report, exactly. Someone here should buy it and see.)

According to the Office of Defects Investigation website, if you click on "Check to Request Research. Submit below" you'll be brought to a summary page.

Click "Continue" and you'll be brought to a page where you can input your name, address, etc.

Fill out the form, check the box that says you agree to pay, and click "Submit Request."

The woman said they'd look up the report, contact you to tell you how much their report will cost (exact amount), and will ask if you still want it.

Note: At the bottom of the request page, it says...

"FEES AND COPYING SERVICES
We charge a standard labor charge of $38.73 per hour for requests involving computer searches, locating and copying documents. In addition, we charge duplication fees, which are $0.10 per page for paper-based or imaged documents. Some files are only available on microfiche; which means you will receive the equivalent number of microfiche sheets. The charge for a sheet of microfiche is $0.15."

Elsewhere, the site says the fee for a 5-page document averages $39.23.

How's that for some quick research on my part?

Keep us posted!

Regards,
Glenn in CT

[CaliGuy]

In for updates!

[MrPanther]

I have forwarded the link at edmunds as well as the links Nighthawk gave me. Im doing searches at vtec.net, clubsi.com, honda-tech.com, epinions.com . Any help appreciated. Lets force honda to reconize this. Does anyone know of any online petitions such as the one a while back dealing with rev hang? Can someone also give me the link for the rev hang petition?

[MrPanther]

http://www.in.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SN/A070100.PDF

Look at page 3 of 6 bottom left.

[NIGHTHAWKSI]

Originally Posted by MrPanther

http://www.in.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SN/A070100.PDF

Look at page 3 of 6 bottom left.

although that does tell us that some one recognizes its a problem...it doesnt give a solution... all it says to do is change fluid and test drive and then "troubleshoot"....i could have told them that

[GlennS]

^ Bump.

Added more info to my "UPDATED" post on the first page of this thread.

[MrPanther]

Right on. Is that bulletin only for EX and LX MT's? Or all?

although that does tell us that some one recognizes its a problem...it doesnt give a solution... all it says to do is change fluid and test drive and then "troubleshoot"....i could have told them that

Correct, but then they cant deny service on the grounds of ignorance.

[whitecivicsi]

Keep up the good work fellas. you got my attention.

subscribed!

[GlennS]

Is that bulletin only for EX and LX MT's? Or all?

Civic, MT, no specific trim level mentioned:

The search I did at the NHTSA sites was on "2006 Civic." Their site simply indicates the Make (Honda), the Model (Civic), and indicates a consumer complaint, and their investigation (that "*TT"), regarding the manual transmission. My modest research is on page 1 of this thread.

[MrPanther]

Glenn thank you, your information is invaluable.

[GlennS]

Glenn thank you, your information is invaluable.

Thanks.
It's my pleasure to help out a fellow 8th Gen Civic owner.

My only request is that you keep us posted, please.
(I'm curious what that goverment report says: It may be useful info, or not. Who knows.)

Good luck and keep in touch,
Glenn in CT