THE OIL FAQ - synthetics, intervals, weights, brands

[jdrumstik]

also see -
ongoing thread about oil life indicator, oil life %, and mileage information on changing your oil
who goes by oil life? Oil percent, First Oil Change Oil Monititor Threads Merged

To Perhaps Settle the Oil Threads Once and For All

Enjoy !

(is this sticky, its all over my hands!

Keep in mind much of this is fact but much is opinion as well. So please don't kill me in my sleep.

General Discussion

First, the purpose of an oil. Oil does many things, however it primarily forms a thin sheet in between key internal engine components and help reduce friction. In fact anyone that knows anything about cars knows that your car might run 5 miles with no oil.

But oil has more purposes, it helps carry heat from out of the engine, although the cooling system is primarily responsible for this, the oil is able to cool piston rings and other parts that water-jacket based systems just cannot accomplish.

Additionally, it’s the sad fact but your engine is not sealed off. Contaminants enter into the engine, dirt, water. Not to mention that what is usually referred to as “metal shavings” or little bits of metal that get sheared off will drop into the oil.

So the oil, protects by eliminating friction, cools by simply being constantly circulated and taking on heat, and it cleans by picking up the dirt and stuff and then being filtered out and eventually changed. However, through these operations the oil is required to pass through tiny gaps in between engine parts, otherwise known as tolerances; through this the oil ccan be sheared down into smaller pieces, which often deposits and glazes the engine.

Should I change my Oil every 3,000 miles?

It sure couldn’t hurt! Traditionally oil is to be changed every 3,000 miles or even every 2,500 miles. But those traditions date back to before most civic owners were born. New engines are much cleaner than old V-8 Carbureted iron block and iron piston horsepower hogs. So if you change your oil at 3,000 miles and it still looks clean, then it probably is. With newer-cleaner running and more efficient engines, along with better oil filters, there is no real need to change your oil every 3,000 miles, unless of course you are in obsessed love with your car.

The box on the oil says 15,000 miles is this accurate?

Probably not. Every oil suffers from what I call molecular instability, or better known as shearing. That is, after being banged, smashed, heated, cooled, filtered, pushed, pumped, and polluted so many times the oil will start to fall apart on a molecular level. As the oil is forced through the small spaces in between engine parts, or tolerances, it is broken into smaller pieces, which often leaves behind deposits and glazing. Many companies suggest that their oil will not degrade at this microscopic level until after 15,000 miles of use. Of course this does not take in to account that most people will probably drive differently than the claiming company did or the simulated may be inaccurate (do you get the same gas mileage as your brochure says?). But more importantly, the oil will become dirty, and when it reaches a certain pollution concentration it will no longer be able to pick up new dirt, sludge, water, metal shavings and whatever else gets into your engine.

So how do I know when to change my Oil?

I strongly recommend either changing it when your engine tells you its dirty, or when the manufactures manual suggest. If you have a newer car and have no idea, I suggest 5,000 miles, if it is older I suggest 3,000 miles. Additionally, if you have an old used car that has not been taken care of, you may want to change the oil frequently. Changing the oil 5 times at 1,000 miles intervals can help clean out the sludge build up from previous owners’ poor habits.

What weight of oil should I use?

Whatever you manual states! Unless you are racing, in some extremely wild climate, or have extensive modifications to your car you should probably use whatever weight of oil your manufacturer recommends. This also helps you keep your warranty and will probably make your car last longer. The main exception to this is many people residing in year round hot environments like to switch to 10W grade oil (from 5W) because of the constantly nearing 100 degree temperature. This is common in California and other states.

Okay so should I go synthetic or petroleum based oil?

Petroleum oil, unless your manufacture states otherwise, is absolutely fine to use. It will do what it is supposed to do, in fact it will do a great job at it. However, if you plan on taking your car to the 200,000-mile club, you may want to consider the long-term benefits of synthetic oil

Better viscosity at high and low temperatures
Oil doesn’t get too runny when hot
Doesn’t get too hard when cold
Better stability
Better shearing stability; that is, it won’t break down as fast due to uniform particle sizes.

Decreased evaporation
Resists oil sludge problems
Can possibly be used for more miles
This is based on the molecular stability issues I spoke of.

Okay so I know its better but is it worth the cost?

Lets say that a typically 5 qts of Dino oil costs $10, 5 qts of synthetic costs $25.
-Now let's assume that either way you would change your oil every 5,000 miles.
-Assume your car gets 25MPG @ $2.5/Gal
-To drive 5,000 miles(life of your oil) you need to spend $500
-Question: after spending $500 on gas, is $15 for quality oil too expensive?
-Over the entire life of your car (250,000 miles), its an extra $750, much cheaper than a new engine at a 165,000 miles.


Okay fine, you convinced me, I want to go synthetic its all the same right?


Unfortunately not, there are 5 main groups of oil.

Group I is no longer used, very basic oil.

Group II is your common regular “dino” or petroleum oil. Group II works just fine as we spoke of but does not have the benefits of synthetic oil

Group III is your typical “synthetic oil.” However, it is actually a refined product of Group II. That is, it has been filtered and treated to be a superb quality of oil. However it is still subject to the shearing or molecular instability of its ancestor group II oil. Don’t expect this oil to run 10,000 or even 15,000 miles. Some do last this long, because of additives, but once they wear out the oil basically falls apart. It is not a true synthetic. Its is often referred to as “hydrocracked.”
Most oils that claim to be synthetic are not. This includes almost every synthetic, Casrtol Syn-Tec, Pennzoil Platinum, Wal-Mart synthetic, and the list goes on. Why is this allowed when it is not synthetic? Mobile 1 discovered in the early ‘90s that Costrol’s full Syn-Tec oil was actually Group III, or a filtered Group II. Mobile 1 sued Castrol saying that it was not what it claimed to be. Castrol defended by saying that the oil was not Group II because it had been altered to a point to where it was reasonably the same as Mobile 1. After Castrol won, most oil companies switched over to the cheaper Group III synthetic and most of the consumers never did and never will know it. Recently their has been debate about whether or not Mobile 1 is still fully synthetic, such debate is speculative and nothing has been confirmed. Mobile 1 Extended Performance is still fully synthetic for sure.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/foru...0&fpart=1&vc=1
http://theoildrop.server101.com/foru...rue#Post860829

Group IV oil is manufactured from non-petroleum ingredients in a lab. It is not naturally occurring in any way. Often referred to as PAO oil or Poly-Alpha-Olefin. These are true synthetics; this is wear it is at! However, how much better they are than group III is debatable, but group IIIs are fakes.
Group IV, or real synthetic oils, have smaller molecules and are all the same size and usually smaller. Being smaller offers the advantages of not being to large to move through tolerances and thus avoids being sheared or broken into smaller pieces. Additionally, it allows the molecules to move around and over each other more easily, which can contribute to better viscosity and lubrication.
Group IV synthetics include Royal Purple, Mobile 1 Extended Performance, and Amsoil (not Xl-7500), their are others but these are the most popular.

Group V oils are rare, and not usually used for automotive base oil. The only example I know of is Redline oil, which is made from polyester and ester, better known as plastic clothing. As scary as that sounds it is probably the highest quality oil you could by, but that doesn’t mean the best oil. Usually used as an additive when making lower group oils.

Synthetic Blends
This is petroleum oil mixed with synthetic oil. Basically it helps the oil maintain its viscosity at extreme temperatures. Plus it makes for good marketing and profit.


Myths

Once you switch to Synthetic you cannot go back to regular.
This seems to be improbable considering that most synthetics are essentially a treated version of regular oil. The best argument I have heard about this is that the synthetic oil swells up your piston rings and then if you switch back the rings shrink and do not retain the correct tolerances. This does not sound very accurate to me; however, I would not recommend chancing it and playing MythBusters.

You can’t switch to synthetic until after XX,XXX miles!
This is not true. You can change it right when you get your car from the dealer. But, it is true that Honda, and possibly other manufactures, put special “break in” oil into their cars in order to help collect metal shavings and help wear in the seals and rings. However, for your first oil change there is nothing wrong with going right to synthetic.

You can’t switch over After XX,XXX miles!
Many people will tell you that you cannot switch over after so many miles, I have switched over after 104,000 miles and didn’t have any problems (89 Oldsmobile). And I have heard of other people doing so as well. However, people will claim that they switched over and all the sudden their car broke down. The trouble is, when you change to synthetic and your car has 192,000 miles, its not fair to blame the synthetic oil when your car breaks down; theirs a good chance it would have happened anyways. However, this is still a concern to many and I have yet to seen it busted.



I Want to Change My Own Oil!

If you are wondering about what Oil Filter to use here is an excellent thread on the manner
oil filter - 8th Generation Honda Civic Forum

Here is a DIY guide on R18 (EX,DX,LX) oil change
Oil Change DIY - 8th Generation Honda Civic Forum

the Si oil change is more involved due to poor oil filter location. Here is a brief discussion
Oil Filter Access? - 8th Generation Honda Civic Forum

and to avoid spilling oil every where for Si owners
Oil Change on Si - 8th Generation Honda Civic Forum


Conclusions

Hope this guide helps every one get a handle on what they wanted. I decided to put it together because I was unsure of what I was doing, whether Mobile 1 was actually worth $20 or not. Thinking of going Redline but probably Royal Purple. Thanks every one!

Also please let me know of anything or everything that is not correct, I am not very seasoned and I am an Accounting student so its possible that some it might be wrong . So let me know and I'll update it!

Sources
"Special" Honda break-in oil? - 8th Generation Honda Civic Forum
Technilube.com Redirect
Interesting Reading about BMW OIL facts long - Bimmerforums - The Ultimate BMW Forum
Synthetic oil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
All About Motor Oil
100% Synthetic PAO Formulated Basestock Technology Makes AMSOIL Best in Synthetics
http://theoildrop.server101.com/foru...0&fpart=1&vc=1
oil filter - 8th Generation Honda Civic Forum
Oil Change DIY - 8th Generation Honda Civic Forum
Oil Change on Si - 8th Generation Honda Civic Forum
Oil Filter Access? - 8th Generation Honda Civic Forum
jonesthewine post #18, this tread - cleared up some shearing confusion
http://theoildrop.server101.com/foru...rue#Post860829

[Skylinegtr06]

What?Mobil 1 not fully sythetic? Link?

[jdrumstik]

Originally Posted by Skylinegtr06

What?Mobil 1 not fully sythetic? Link?

Hmm, seems like you are right. However I have ready in many places that it is not any longer fully synthetic I am also reading it is. Hmm, maybe then changed back. Looking for something definate.

[webby]

right on the bottle - fully synthetic

[Kurt]

Mobil 1 FTW

Good post.

[jdrumstik]

Nope, according to this thread this is a new thing, that is probably happening where they are now mixing Group III and Group IV. So that picture is old. See this thread here. Its definitely questionable but I knew I wasn't retarded! Editing the original Post as we speak.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/foru...rue#Post860829

[jdrumstik]

Post has been changed to reflect that

"Recently their has been debate about whether or not Mobile 1 is still fully synthetic, nothing has been confirmed"


Thanks for catching that one. Wouldn't want to throw anyone off.

[webby]

Originally Posted by jdrumstik

Nope, according to this thread this is a new thing, that is probably happening where they are now mixing Group III and Group IV. So that picture is old. See this thread here. Its definitely questionable but I knew I wasn't retarded! Editing the original Post as we speak.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/foru...rue#Post860829

thread was started today as speculation. Nothing was proven to say it wasn't synthetic.

[eugenekim.net]

someone confirm the mobil 1 piece

[webby]

also note -
directly from mobil 1 site

Is Mobil 1 with SuperSyn Technology a fully synthetic motor oil?
Yes, it is. To meet the demanding requirements of today's specifications (and our customers' expectations), Mobil 1 with SuperSyn uses high-performance fluids, including polyalphaolefins (PAOs), along with a proprietary system of additives. Each Mobil 1 with SuperSyn viscosity grade uses a unique combination of synthetic fluids and selected additives in order to tailor the viscosity grade to its specific application.

http://www.mobil1.com/USA-English/Mo...AQs.aspx#FAQs4
2nd to last question on the page.

[jdrumstik]

Originally Posted by webby

thread was started today as speculation. Nothing was proven to say it wasn't synthetic.

Right I just updated that, see post above every one #7, changed guide to say its speculative. Sorry about the mix up, I think its appropriate now.


THis thread clarifies quite a bit, and since M1 is being accused of being Group III synthetic and Group IV synthetic they can probably still get away with fully synthetic

http://theoildrop.server101.com/foru...0&fpart=1&vc=1

Still nothing proven but I feel its okay to put that its been debated in the FAQ. Not sure how to prove it right or wrong though.

[reaper702]

amsoil ftmfW!!!!1

[jdrumstik]

Ahh, apparntaly the extended performance (new line 2005 if I remember right) is still fully synthetic being Group IV with Group V additives, however, the standard mobile 1 lines are being questioned. Will update the guide.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/foru...0&fpart=1&vc=1

[Trapito]

Excellent Post!... I've just changed my oil to Mobil 1 and have noticed a significant changed on my engine. This post corroborates what I'm experiencing. Thanks

[jdrumstik]

Added Change your own Oil section in the FAQ for K20 and for the R18.

[ABM JDM]

OP - excellent post, great job!

After doing my own research on 'the best oil', I've come to the conclusion that Mobil 1 is the best for the money. But these Amsoil people have some pretty convincing arguments - still not sure whether it is worth the money though, so I'm not switching over... yet. And I'm convinced now that Royal Purple is pretty good but overhyped, and not any better than Mobil 1, besides being more expensive on average as well.

[Si-aficionado]

Great thread..thanks for all the info +1

[jonesthewine]

Great write-up...thanks for the effort.

rep +1

FYI the process whereby the oil is broken down at the molecular level is shearing, not sheering.

When the oil is required to pass through very small gaps (tolerances), eg engine bearings, the molecules of mineral oil can be broken/sheared into smaller components...these components aggregate and form the deposits/glazing often found in engines when they are disassembled.

One benefit of real synthetics is that the molecules are uniformly sized, and are generally smaller (thus not affected by close tolerances and thus are shearproof) and able to move over each other with less resistance than mineral oil molecules.

[jdrumstik]

Originally Posted by jonesthewine

Great write-up...thanks for the effort.

rep +1

FYI the process whereby the oil is broken down at the molecular level is shearing, not sheering.

When the oil is required to pass through very small gaps (tolerances), eg engine bearings, the molecules of mineral oil can be broken/sheared into smaller components...these components aggregate and form the deposits/glazing often found in engines when they are disassembled.

One benefit of real synthetics is that the molecules are uniformly sized, and are generally smaller (thus not affected by close tolerances and thus are shearproof) and able to move over each other with less resistance than mineral oil molecules.

Updated the Faq and added you to the sources list!

[ruxpin23]

I heard that when you switch to synthetic you don't have to change your oil as frequently, is this true? After reading this, it seems like there is no bearing (you change oil every 5000 regardless?)