Third gear not fully engaging/popping out... - Page 4

Paradox Lost · 12-14-2006, 02:31 AM

Yeah, it really seems that transmission fluid is essentially the culprit here.

I don't know if you guys had checked out the thread in the Si forum about Edmund's long term Si blog, but they've experienced the same problem, and made a note of it. Just scroll down a little to see that particular entry:

http://blogs.edmunds.com/roadtests/c...06HondaCivicSi

cappykd · 12-14-2006, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paradox Lost

Yeah, it really seems that transmission fluid is essentially the culprit here.

I don't know if you guys had checked out the thread in the Si forum about Edmund's long term Si blog, but they've experienced the same problem, and made a not of it. Just scroll down a little to see the particular entry:

http://blogs.edmunds.com/roadtests/c...06HondaCivicSi

Honda wouldn't have gone through all the trouble to test and certify a reformulated Tranny fluid without a very good reason.

Paradox Lost · 12-14-2006, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cappykd

Honda wouldn't have gone through all the trouble to test and certify a reformulated Tranny fluid without a very good reason.

Well, it looks like their ears weren't as def to the complaints of various customers as I may have thought (assuming they were inspired by this or an understanding of the general problem). The dealership flushed out my fluid (which wasn't even proper transmission fluid, according to them) a few weeks ago, and though it's shifting smoothly now, I wonder if they used the reformulated version of their factory transmission fluid.

cappykd · 12-14-2006, 02:53 AM

Yeah I made a point to dump the old as soon as the new came out, I had to ask specifically for the new. Hopefully this will help or solve this issue.

televascular · 12-14-2006, 02:55 AM

Not sure as to the hype surrounding this new Honda MTF (Acura announced an MTF reformulation as well, probably the same fluid); it may alleviate the 3rd gear problems as the Specialty Formulations' MTL-P did for me.

To whoever posted the question way before, the answer is yes, the SF-MTL-P is still shifting smoothly as the day I swapped the MTF.

But let's get something straight here, this is really bothering me:
USING A NON-HONDA FLUID WILL NOT VOID YOUR WARRANTY.

If you are using a transmission fluid that is API or SAE approved and is specified for use in your particular Honda transmission (similar viscosity, detergents, AW/EP additives, brass deactivators, etc.), then Honda Motor Co. must honor your warranty. The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, in a nutshell, states that the manufacturer cannot deny service based upon an aftermarket product that is used UNLESS the aftermarket product is provided to you free of charge.

"The federal minimum standards for full warranties are waived if the warrantor can show that the problem associated with a warranted consumer product was caused by damage while in the possession of the consumer, or by unreasonable use, including a failure to provide reasonable and necessary maintenance."

That is just one component of the Warranty Act. In a real-world application to automotive aftermarket products, it means that Honda can't deny coverage due to using a non-Honda product unless they can explicitly prove the aftermarket product caused the malfunction/damage due to improper installation, abuse, or incompatibility. It is the responsibility of HMC to prove the product caused the problem; you are not obligated to prove anything.

For example, I use SF-MTL-P in my transaxle, and let's say my synchros failed and I took the car to the dealer for warranty service. Provided my MTF has the necessary certification (which it does), is specified for Honda transaxles (which it is), and I have performed maintenance at the proper intervals (which I have), they must either repair/replace the transmission under warranty, or prove that the SF-MTL-P caused the synchro failure with factual evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. If in fact, Honda determines the aftermarket fluid itself caused the failure, the debate now becomes Honda vs. Specialty Formulations.

Information is your best tool. If any aftermarket product meets the criteria above, then the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act applies. Make sure whatever fluids you use are API/SAE certified, or your argument is bust.

BATANG CITY JAIL · 12-14-2006, 03:38 AM

i have'nt encounter any issue on third gear since i change my MTF, its been 2 weeks now...( crosses finger)

ADewan · 12-14-2006, 09:19 AM

UPDATE: smooth shifting with the new fluid. :-) "fingers crossed"

SIcBoy · 12-14-2006, 09:22 AM

almost time for an oil change im going to get my tranni fluid changed

cappykd · 12-14-2006, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by televascular

Not sure as to the hype surrounding this new Honda MTF (Acura announced an MTF reformulation as well, probably the same fluid); it may alleviate the 3rd gear problems as the Specialty Formulations' MTL-P did for me.

To whoever posted the question way before, the answer is yes, the SF-MTL-P is still shifting smoothly as the day I swapped the MTF.

But let's get something straight here, this is really bothering me:
USING A NON-HONDA FLUID WILL NOT VOID YOUR WARRANTY.

If you are using a transmission fluid that is API or SAE approved and is specified for use in your particular Honda transmission (similar viscosity, detergents, AW/EP additives, brass deactivators, etc.), then Honda Motor Co. must honor your warranty. The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, in a nutshell, states that the manufacturer cannot deny service based upon an aftermarket product that is used UNLESS the aftermarket product is provided to you free of charge.

"The federal minimum standards for full warranties are waived if the warrantor can show that the problem associated with a warranted consumer product was caused by damage while in the possession of the consumer, or by unreasonable use, including a failure to provide reasonable and necessary maintenance."

That is just one component of the Warranty Act. In a real-world application to automotive aftermarket products, it means that Honda can't deny coverage due to using a non-Honda product unless they can explicitly prove the aftermarket product caused the malfunction/damage due to improper installation, abuse, or incompatibility. It is the responsibility of HMC to prove the product caused the problem; you are not obligated to prove anything.

For example, I use SF-MTL-P in my transaxle, and let's say my synchros failed and I took the car to the dealer for warranty service. Provided my MTF has the necessary certification (which it does), is specified for Honda transaxles (which it is), and I have performed maintenance at the proper intervals (which I have), they must either repair/replace the transmission under warranty, or prove that the SF-MTL-P caused the synchro failure with factual evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. If in fact, Honda determines the aftermarket fluid itself caused the failure, the debate now becomes Honda vs. Specialty Formulations.

Information is your best tool. If any aftermarket product meets the criteria above, then the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act applies. Make sure whatever fluids you use are API/SAE certified, or your argument is bust.

Great you use the aftermarket fluid and I'll use the Honda. Personally I trust the Honda fluid, it has nothing to do with Magnuson-Moss. It's actually the same reason why I'm using the HFP suspension. I trust Honda R&D and quality testing more than a third party. I'm positive that Honda tested their fluid in more Honda's and Acura's than SF did.

Furthermore why do newbs always get up on a soap-box about Magnuson-Moss. We've all seen the text of it before. You really don't need to qoute it for the 100th time in an effort to defend your decision to run SF MTF.

stevenshizzle · 12-14-2006, 10:51 AM

I just called Honda and scheduled an appointment for next week. The Navy Officer that I work next to laughed as he was listening to my conversation. I'd like to read about all of the malfunctions that have plauged the older Ford Mustangs. At any rate, I'll let you guys know what happens!

si_civic · 12-14-2006, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cappykd

Great you use the aftermarket fluid and I'll use the Honda. Personally I trust the Honda fluid, it has nothing to do with Magnuson-Moss. It's actually the same reason why I'm using the HFP suspension. I trust Honda R&D and quality testing more than a third party. I'm positive that Honda tested their fluid in more Honda's and Acura's than SF did.

Furthermore why do newbs always get up on a soap-box about Magnuson-Moss. We've all seen the text of it before. You really don't need to qoute it for the 100th time in an effort to defend your decision to run SF MTF.

It's quoted to remind people that it is in their right to enforce this act. Big businesses, such as Honda, hide behind their legal counsel, thus it is important for you, the consumer, to know such acts exist.

I am going to contact Honda today, and if they act stupid about this new fluid, I'm going to get someone else (certified place) to change it with an aftermarket MTF.

Darryl

cappykd · 12-14-2006, 10:58 AM

It's funny how everyone talks about enforcing the act but have you actually done so? As you said Honda will have lawyers and experts ready to testify if needed. Will You?

televascular · 12-14-2006, 11:29 AM

cappykd, the point of the Magnuson-Moss is that you don't have to "testify" or anything of the sort. That's what the Act protects you from. And I'm sorry if my explanation was overused, I didn't realize others had clarified Magnuson-Moss before me.

And I relate with you completely on Honda's R&D. I, also, will use nothing but the HFP suspension because I'm not looking for something overly aggressive, and Honda quality is top notch as opposed to some shady aftermarket companies. I will use nothing but Honda OEM replacement parts for the life of my vehicle, except when it comes to fluids.

That being said, Honda does not engineer their own fluids. The MTF is not manufactured by Honda, but a third party that they contract to formulate fluids to their specifications. A balance between quality and profit margin must be met: they will give you good quality fluids (as I trust Honda to do), but it will not be as good as they can make it because large-scale manufacturing must stay cheap. I put Honda on a pedestal for their engineering prowess, but reducing costs is the name of the game in the auto industry.

Specialty Formulations, as an example, uses 100% PAO Group IV stock, with the proper additives for your Honda transaxle. It is a better MTF than the Honda fluid, because quality, not mass-market profitability, is their main concern.

And now I see what I've written and it seems like a rant.

Bob Is The Oil Guy.

MaXaZoR · 12-14-2006, 03:09 PM

I have a question to the people who change their transmission Oil over to the new blend. Was this covered under your warrenty or did you have to pay out of pocket for this? Also Honda has a TSB for the transmission 3rd gear grinding (TSB 1205 I believe). Does anyone have anymore infomation on this, such as what they give their Service Dept. Techs as a possible solution? The reason why I'm asking this is because I called up my dealership today to talk about this issue, 1st off they had no clue that a new oil fluid was released by Honda, then 2nd when I showed them the article, they told me that this wouldn't fix my issue w/ the third gear and if I wanted to swap the oil I would have to pay out of pocket for it. This just doesn't seem right to me.

cappykd · 12-14-2006, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaXaZoR

I have a question to the people who change their transmission Oil over to the new blend. Was this covered under your warrenty or did you have to pay out of pocket for this? Also Honda has a TSB for the transmission 3rd gear grinding (TSB 1205 I believe). Does anyone have anymore infomation on this, such as what they give their Service Dept. Techs as a possible solution? The reason why I'm asking this is because I called up my dealership today to talk about this issue, 1st off they had no clue that a new oil fluid was released by Honda, then 2nd when I showed them the article, they told me that this wouldn't fix my issue w/ the third gear and if I wanted to swap the oil I would have to pay out of pocket for it. This just doesn't seem right to me.

Some people have had it covered personally I was happy to pay out of pocket. I guess it depends on how many miles are on your car. I have 25,000 so it was time to change it anyway.

MaXaZoR · 12-14-2006, 03:26 PM

<--- Less than 5,000 miles

penguix · 12-17-2006, 07:01 PM

not only is the OEM fluid crap, but get this, THE TRANSMISSION FLUID IS OVERFILLED AT THE FACTORY. This is evidenced by removing the fill bolt and observing a ton of fluid pour out (the fluid is supposed to be level to the fill hole, and as such none should come out if the car is level). This might have caused increased pressure inside of the transmission case.

Does anyone have a link/scan to this new TSB regarding 3rd gear? Anything yet on the 1st to 2nd grind at high rpm?

xmx250 · 12-17-2006, 07:33 PM

Maybe i should take my car in also. 350 miles and it has not grinded yet, but 3rd is definelty notchy, i have to push extra hard to get it in. However it hasnt grinded or popped out yet. Do you guys think i should take my car in and get the fluid changed before any more symptoms arise with my third gear?

Mondo1287 · 12-17-2006, 07:52 PM

Mine started doing it at about 2k miles, now it happens 3-4 times a week but I'm usually quick enough to catch it before it grinds.

si_civic · 12-17-2006, 09:32 PM

1st gear is fine, 2nd is fine. ITS JUST THIS STUPID 3RD that's peeving me off.

2006 Honda Civic
Bulletin #: 1205
Sequence #: 10018868
Date: 12/16/2005
Component Name: 102000 power train:manual transmission
Make: Honda
Model: Civic
Year: 2006
Summary: Transmission grinds at shifts, skip shifting. *

Of course, 2006's get the attention, like the reflash, 2007's DO NOT.

12-14-2006, 02:31 AM	#61 (permalink)
Paradox Lost Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Bay Area Age: 25 Posts: 334 Rami iTrader: 0 / 0%	Yeah, it really seems that transmission fluid is essentially the culprit here. I don't know if you guys had checked out the thread in the Si forum about Edmund's long term Si blog, but they've experienced the same problem, and made a note of it. Just scroll down a little to see that particular entry: http://blogs.edmunds.com/roadtests/c...06HondaCivicSi Last edited by Paradox Lost; 12-14-2006 at 02:41 AM.

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12-14-2006, 02:53 AM	#64 (permalink)
cappykd Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: SoCal Age: 39 Posts: 1,806 Kirk iTrader: 9 / 100%	Yeah I made a point to dump the old as soon as the new came out, I had to ask specifically for the new. Hopefully this will help or solve this issue.

12-14-2006, 02:55 AM	#65 (permalink)
televascular Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: New Jersey Posts: 276 iTrader: 0 / 0%	Not sure as to the hype surrounding this new Honda MTF (Acura announced an MTF reformulation as well, probably the same fluid); it may alleviate the 3rd gear problems as the Specialty Formulations' MTL-P did for me. To whoever posted the question way before, the answer is yes, the SF-MTL-P is still shifting smoothly as the day I swapped the MTF. But let's get something straight here, this is really bothering me: USING A NON-HONDA FLUID WILL NOT VOID YOUR WARRANTY. If you are using a transmission fluid that is API or SAE approved and is specified for use in your particular Honda transmission (similar viscosity, detergents, AW/EP additives, brass deactivators, etc.), then Honda Motor Co. must honor your warranty. The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, in a nutshell, states that the manufacturer cannot deny service based upon an aftermarket product that is used UNLESS the aftermarket product is provided to you free of charge. "The federal minimum standards for full warranties are waived if the warrantor can show that the problem associated with a warranted consumer product was caused by damage while in the possession of the consumer, or by unreasonable use, including a failure to provide reasonable and necessary maintenance." That is just one component of the Warranty Act. In a real-world application to automotive aftermarket products, it means that Honda can't deny coverage due to using a non-Honda product unless they can explicitly prove the aftermarket product caused the malfunction/damage due to improper installation, abuse, or incompatibility. It is the responsibility of HMC to prove the product caused the problem; you are not obligated to prove anything. For example, I use SF-MTL-P in my transaxle, and let's say my synchros failed and I took the car to the dealer for warranty service. Provided my MTF has the necessary certification (which it does), is specified for Honda transaxles (which it is), and I have performed maintenance at the proper intervals (which I have), they must either repair/replace the transmission under warranty, or prove that the SF-MTL-P caused the synchro failure with factual evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. If in fact, Honda determines the aftermarket fluid itself caused the failure, the debate now becomes Honda vs. Specialty Formulations. Information is your best tool. If any aftermarket product meets the criteria above, then the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act applies. Make sure whatever fluids you use are API/SAE certified, or your argument is bust.

12-14-2006, 03:38 AM	#66 (permalink)
BATANG CITY JAIL Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Durham, NC..£╖╒◙o├æ Posts: 8,327 iTrader: 10 / 100%	i have'nt encounter any issue on third gear since i change my MTF, its been 2 weeks now...( crosses finger)

12-14-2006, 09:19 AM	#67 (permalink)
ADewan Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Brampton Posts: 118 iTrader: 0 / 0%	UPDATE: smooth shifting with the new fluid. :-) "fingers crossed"

12-14-2006, 09:22 AM	#68 (permalink)
SIcBoy Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: peoria az Age: 24 Posts: 3,440 jr iTrader: 3 / 100%	almost time for an oil change im going to get my tranni fluid changed

12-14-2006, 10:51 AM	#70 (permalink)
stevenshizzle Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Belleville, IL Age: 23 Posts: 793 Steven iTrader: 0 / 0%	I just called Honda and scheduled an appointment for next week. The Navy Officer that I work next to laughed as he was listening to my conversation. I'd like to read about all of the malfunctions that have plauged the older Ford Mustangs. At any rate, I'll let you guys know what happens!

12-14-2006, 10:58 AM	#72 (permalink)
cappykd Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: SoCal Age: 39 Posts: 1,806 Kirk iTrader: 9 / 100%	It's funny how everyone talks about enforcing the act but have you actually done so? As you said Honda will have lawyers and experts ready to testify if needed. Will You?

12-14-2006, 11:29 AM	#73 (permalink)
televascular Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: New Jersey Posts: 276 iTrader: 0 / 0%	cappykd, the point of the Magnuson-Moss is that you don't have to "testify" or anything of the sort. That's what the Act protects you from. And I'm sorry if my explanation was overused, I didn't realize others had clarified Magnuson-Moss before me. And I relate with you completely on Honda's R&D. I, also, will use nothing but the HFP suspension because I'm not looking for something overly aggressive, and Honda quality is top notch as opposed to some shady aftermarket companies. I will use nothing but Honda OEM replacement parts for the life of my vehicle, except when it comes to fluids. That being said, Honda does not engineer their own fluids. The MTF is not manufactured by Honda, but a third party that they contract to formulate fluids to their specifications. A balance between quality and profit margin must be met: they will give you good quality fluids (as I trust Honda to do), but it will not be as good as they can make it because large-scale manufacturing must stay cheap. I put Honda on a pedestal for their engineering prowess, but reducing costs is the name of the game in the auto industry. Specialty Formulations, as an example, uses 100% PAO Group IV stock, with the proper additives for your Honda transaxle. It is a better MTF than the Honda fluid, because quality, not mass-market profitability, is their main concern. And now I see what I've written and it seems like a rant. Bob Is The Oil Guy.

12-14-2006, 03:09 PM	#74 (permalink)
MaXaZoR Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: North NJ Posts: 578 iTrader: 6 / 100%	I have a question to the people who change their transmission Oil over to the new blend. Was this covered under your warrenty or did you have to pay out of pocket for this? Also Honda has a TSB for the transmission 3rd gear grinding (TSB 1205 I believe). Does anyone have anymore infomation on this, such as what they give their Service Dept. Techs as a possible solution? The reason why I'm asking this is because I called up my dealership today to talk about this issue, 1st off they had no clue that a new oil fluid was released by Honda, then 2nd when I showed them the article, they told me that this wouldn't fix my issue w/ the third gear and if I wanted to swap the oil I would have to pay out of pocket for it. This just doesn't seem right to me.

12-14-2006, 03:26 PM	#76 (permalink)
MaXaZoR Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: North NJ Posts: 578 iTrader: 6 / 100%	<--- Less than 5,000 miles

12-17-2006, 07:01 PM	#77 (permalink)
penguix Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 11 iTrader: 0 / 0%	not only is the OEM fluid crap, but get this, THE TRANSMISSION FLUID IS OVERFILLED AT THE FACTORY. This is evidenced by removing the fill bolt and observing a ton of fluid pour out (the fluid is supposed to be level to the fill hole, and as such none should come out if the car is level). This might have caused increased pressure inside of the transmission case. Does anyone have a link/scan to this new TSB regarding 3rd gear? Anything yet on the 1st to 2nd grind at high rpm?

12-17-2006, 07:33 PM	#78 (permalink)
xmx250 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Westchester, N.Y. Age: 21 Posts: 6,100 iTrader: 1 / 100%	Maybe i should take my car in also. 350 miles and it has not grinded yet, but 3rd is definelty notchy, i have to push extra hard to get it in. However it hasnt grinded or popped out yet. Do you guys think i should take my car in and get the fluid changed before any more symptoms arise with my third gear?

12-17-2006, 07:52 PM	#79 (permalink)
Mondo1287 Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Age: 28 Posts: 125 iTrader: 0 / 0%	Mine started doing it at about 2k miles, now it happens 3-4 times a week but I'm usually quick enough to catch it before it grinds.

12-17-2006, 09:32 PM	#80 (permalink)
si_civic Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: B.C. ,Canada Age: 30 Posts: 4,608 A/Cst.D.F.Abate iTrader: 10 / 100%	1st gear is fine, 2nd is fine. ITS JUST THIS STUPID 3RD that's peeving me off. 2006 Honda Civic Bulletin #: 1205 Sequence #: 10018868 Date: 12/16/2005 Component Name: 102000 power train:manual transmission Make: Honda Model: Civic Year: 2006 Summary: Transmission grinds at shifts, skip shifting. * Of course, 2006's get the attention, like the reflash, 2007's DO NOT.