My key fob opens other cars... - Page 2

***CaliGuy*** · 07-21-2006, 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by civic_dx-g

unless we are stuck in the 90s, remotes no longer just use discrete frequencies to identify a fob to a system. That was way back when you could open other people's garage doors.

Now they not only frequency hop (i.e. use a different one every one, the fob is synched to the system), but are typically also coded.

If this happened, that means something is seriously wrong with the default security level provided by honda.

This definetly happened

CMByrd · 07-21-2006, 03:57 AM

I've not experienced it recently, but when saturns were a new brand I used to LOVE to take my mom's keys to the dealership and hit the panic button. Usualy would get 3-4 (=

civic_dx-g · 07-21-2006, 08:58 PM

investigation thus far revealed that Honda uses a remote produced by Valeo (a french company). A check of the FCC id further revealed they all use a common frequency (315.85Mhz) and FSK - Frequency Shift Keying. (WIKI)The latter typically means that each remote has at least a unique code which is modulated into the carrier frequency.

Now, most modern remotes also use code-rolling, i.e. constantly updating codes. I don't know if this one does or not, the pics on the FCC site (linkwere not detailed enough to identify the IC used in the remote, thus I'll have to take mine apart when I get home.

So far I suggest 3 hyptheses:

1. Honda is with the times and uses code rolling, in that case it was a question of luck. This is easy to test, does your key open the other car EVERY time?

2. They use a single code embedded in the key, due to a limited number of available codes they reuse them. Again, same way to test as for #1

3. The granularity of the receiver (sensitivity) may be worse than the granularity of the transmitter. What this means is that the receiver can interpret many different codes as one if they are sufficiently close together. This will often depend on the actual gain and antenna characteristics of the receiver. This can be checked by trying to open the other car from different positions - closer, further, line of sight, something in the way, etc.

Another worrysome thing I noticed is that I did not see a separate immobilizer IC on the remote. This means that it may be embedded in the same IC as the one that controlles the FSK. If so, then the possibility that the remote uses a single code is even more worrysome as it makes it much easier to duplicate...possibly even on the fly!

***CaliGuy*** · 07-21-2006, 09:09 PM

Well, I tried this again and nothing happened except when i pressed lock twice the horn sounded lightly, but no opening doors or treunk...strange

SIpimpin13 · 07-22-2006, 09:38 AM

weird!

jasongg06 · 07-22-2006, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k20z3Vo

Fresh Off the Boat

That's the true meaning...

Actually FOB means "Freight On Board"

"Fresh Off the Boat/Boeing" is a discrimatory term used against many foreigners.

civic_dx-g · 07-31-2006, 02:55 PM

related readings:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.08/carkey.html

As I thought it uses a "fixed" code which means that it can be both a) sniffed and b) "mangled" by lossy transmission

civic_dx-g · 07-31-2006, 04:10 PM

very interesting presentation at http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&ct=res...OwA8hvI8075ipg

does your key have an F or a V on it?

ShaggySi · 07-31-2006, 04:39 PM

Hey it seems strange but if that happends I don't want some stealing stuff in my car. But I guess they can't steal your car so that is good. #100

sbmon · 08-01-2006, 11:10 PM

Interesting thread.
I once heard that if you are locked out of your car here's what to do if you have your cell phone with you. Call your house where your extra key is at now have the person at your house get your extra key fob and hold it very close to the phone and press the unlock button. You should at the same time place your cell phone very close to the car receiver module and supposedly it will unlock, it might take a few trys. Now go give it a try and report back. On a side note if you try this at home atleast drive the car a few blocks down the street to be sure it is legitimately working via the phone.

scooby2 · 08-01-2006, 11:56 PM

Anyone know if the emergency brake sequence plus any key will start 2006 Honda's? God I hope not.

**wing_gundam** · 08-02-2006, 09:58 AM

Some kind of device?

Its called a laptop and a wifi radio. Hey that's easy to find!

***rippars*** · 08-02-2006, 10:09 AM

when i was at the mall i set off the alarm but when i got to the car i sat there for a minute trying to open the car but then i looked inside and realized it wasnt my freaking car... felt like an idiot. but i cant help it since gg was the most produced color for 06 or at least the most color sold in the dc metro area.

8thgenuser · 08-02-2006, 01:54 PM

I remember going to one dealership using a master key that operated all the Civics on the lot. The key alarm worked for every Civic as well as each respective ignition. I asked if that was a security issue and they said it wasn't since they change the codes upon delivery and it was a huge convenience for the dealership to have master keys instead of using a board that holds all the keys or even lockboxes on the cars themselves. I was like, that's a HUGE security issue! If that key gets into the wrong hands, which I'm sure it eventually will, I'll be seeing Civics get stolen left and right. For the sake of security, I won't say which dealership uses that master key, but I'm sure many other dealerships use a master key as well. Anyhow, I didn't purchase my car from that particular dealer. I didn't get a good price from them anyway.

civic_dx-g · 08-02-2006, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sbmon

Interesting thread.
I once heard that if you are locked out of your car here's what to do if you have your cell phone with you. Call your house where your extra key is at now have the person at your house get your extra key fob and hold it very close to the phone and press the unlock button. You should at the same time place your cell phone very close to the car receiver module and supposedly it will unlock, it might take a few trys. Now go give it a try and report back. On a side note if you try this at home atleast drive the car a few blocks down the street to be sure it is legitimately working via the phone.

I once heard that if you do that you get the loch ness monster on the line. I hope that you are not being serious...

civic_dx-g · 08-02-2006, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scooby2

Anyone know if the emergency brake sequence plus any key will start 2006 Honda's? God I hope not.

yes they will, but the actual sequence depends on your VIN number. Someone would need access to Honda software to figure this out (not entirely impossible)

civic_dx-g · 08-02-2006, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8thgenuser

I remember going to one dealership using a master key that operated all the Civics on the lot. The key alarm worked for every Civic as well as each respective ignition. I asked if that was a security issue and they said it wasn't since they change the codes upon delivery and it was a huge convenience for the dealership to have master keys instead of using a board that holds all the keys or even lockboxes on the cars themselves. I was like, that's a HUGE security issue! If that key gets into the wrong hands, which I'm sure it eventually will, I'll be seeing Civics get stolen left and right. For the sake of security, I won't say which dealership uses that master key, but I'm sure many other dealerships use a master key as well. Anyhow, I didn't purchase my car from that particular dealer. I didn't get a good price from them anyway.

the dealer is right tho, if that key would get into the wrong hands it would only affect the civis on that lot, and at that only if they didn't reprogram them first. Once you car is delivered and new keys associated with it, that key no longer works.

DSMKLR · 08-02-2006, 04:08 PM

if everyone is so worried about this, just get an aftermarket alarm.... even if someone can unlock your door with their keypad, the aftermarket alarm will still go into alert mode... you could also completely disarm the factory system and use the atermarket one alone. UNGo makes alarms that change frequincies every 10 minutes and only remotes programmed to the brain can pick up the new frequincy and the only way to add another remote.... would envolve being in you car and using key sequence and button sequence on the new remote at the same time to be able to program it, so it basically eliminates the ability of anyone to break into your car using frequincy scanners.

07-21-2006, 08:58 PM	#23 (permalink)
civic_dx-g Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 58 iTrader: 0 / 0%	investigatio revealed... investigation thus far revealed that Honda uses a remote produced by Valeo (a french company). A check of the FCC id further revealed they all use a common frequency (315.85Mhz) and FSK - Frequency Shift Keying. (WIKI)The latter typically means that each remote has at least a unique code which is modulated into the carrier frequency. Now, most modern remotes also use code-rolling, i.e. constantly updating codes. I don't know if this one does or not, the pics on the FCC site (linkwere not detailed enough to identify the IC used in the remote, thus I'll have to take mine apart when I get home. So far I suggest 3 hyptheses: 1. Honda is with the times and uses code rolling, in that case it was a question of luck. This is easy to test, does your key open the other car EVERY time? 2. They use a single code embedded in the key, due to a limited number of available codes they reuse them. Again, same way to test as for #1 3. The granularity of the receiver (sensitivity) may be worse than the granularity of the transmitter. What this means is that the receiver can interpret many different codes as one if they are sufficiently close together. This will often depend on the actual gain and antenna characteristics of the receiver. This can be checked by trying to open the other car from different positions - closer, further, line of sight, something in the way, etc. Another worrysome thing I noticed is that I did not see a separate immobilizer IC on the remote. This means that it may be embedded in the same IC as the one that controlles the FSK. If so, then the possibility that the remote uses a single code is even more worrysome as it makes it much easier to duplicate...possibly even on the fly!

07-21-2006, 09:09 PM	#24 (permalink)
*CaliGuy* VIP Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: SoCal Age: 30 Posts: 10,520 J. M. back by popular demand! iTrader: 4 / 100%	Well, I tried this again and nothing happened except when i pressed lock twice the horn sounded lightly, but no opening doors or treunk...strange __________________ Visit my city! Free vagin for every resident (in direct contrast to the other cities that only provide free Fleshlites!) http://eat-mykhram.myminicity.com/

08-02-2006, 09:58 AM	#32 (permalink)
wing_gundam Smooth Moderator Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: T dot Posts: 17,848 Civic Type Stock iTrader: 9 / 100%	Some kind of device? Its called a laptop and a wifi radio. Hey that's easy to find! __________________ Trying to sell? Read the updated for sale forum rules here

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07-21-2006, 03:57 AM	#22 (permalink)
CMByrd Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Columbus GA Posts: 292 iTrader: 0 / 0%	I've not experienced it recently, but when saturns were a new brand I used to LOVE to take my mom's keys to the dealership and hit the panic button. Usualy would get 3-4 (=

07-22-2006, 09:38 AM	#25 (permalink)
SIpimpin13 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Yorkville, IL Posts: 1,265 iTrader: 0 / 0%	weird!

07-31-2006, 02:55 PM	#27 (permalink)
civic_dx-g Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 58 iTrader: 0 / 0%	related readings: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.08/carkey.html As I thought it uses a "fixed" code which means that it can be both a) sniffed and b) "mangled" by lossy transmission

07-31-2006, 04:10 PM	#28 (permalink)
civic_dx-g Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 58 iTrader: 0 / 0%	very interesting presentation at http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&ct=res...OwA8hvI8075ipg does your key have an F or a V on it?

07-31-2006, 04:39 PM	#29 (permalink)
ShaggySi Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Age: 25 Posts: 153 iTrader: 0 / 0%	Hey it seems strange but if that happends I don't want some stealing stuff in my car. But I guess they can't steal your car so that is good. #100

08-01-2006, 11:10 PM	#30 (permalink)
sbmon Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 211 iTrader: 0 / 0%	Interesting thread. I once heard that if you are locked out of your car here's what to do if you have your cell phone with you. Call your house where your extra key is at now have the person at your house get your extra key fob and hold it very close to the phone and press the unlock button. You should at the same time place your cell phone very close to the car receiver module and supposedly it will unlock, it might take a few trys. Now go give it a try and report back. On a side note if you try this at home atleast drive the car a few blocks down the street to be sure it is legitimately working via the phone.

08-01-2006, 11:56 PM	#31 (permalink)
scooby2 Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Howell, MI Posts: 18 iTrader: 0 / 0%	Anyone know if the emergency brake sequence plus any key will start 2006 Honda's? God I hope not.

08-02-2006, 01:54 PM	#34 (permalink)
8thgenuser Webby's Minion Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 7,065 Nikon Squad Member #8 iTrader: 1 / 100%	I remember going to one dealership using a master key that operated all the Civics on the lot. The key alarm worked for every Civic as well as each respective ignition. I asked if that was a security issue and they said it wasn't since they change the codes upon delivery and it was a huge convenience for the dealership to have master keys instead of using a board that holds all the keys or even lockboxes on the cars themselves. I was like, that's a HUGE security issue! If that key gets into the wrong hands, which I'm sure it eventually will, I'll be seeing Civics get stolen left and right. For the sake of security, I won't say which dealership uses that master key, but I'm sure many other dealerships use a master key as well. Anyhow, I didn't purchase my car from that particular dealer. I didn't get a good price from them anyway.

08-02-2006, 04:08 PM	#38 (permalink)
DSMKLR Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Age: 26 Posts: 177 iTrader: 1 / 100%	if everyone is so worried about this, just get an aftermarket alarm.... even if someone can unlock your door with their keypad, the aftermarket alarm will still go into alert mode... you could also completely disarm the factory system and use the atermarket one alone. UNGo makes alarms that change frequincies every 10 minutes and only remotes programmed to the brain can pick up the new frequincy and the only way to add another remote.... would envolve being in you car and using key sequence and button sequence on the new remote at the same time to be able to program it, so it basically eliminates the ability of anyone to break into your car using frequincy scanners.