50 Hz possible from 6.5 speakers?

oldfart · 05-10-2008, 10:35 PM

So in my slowly winding road to stereo upgrade city, My latest conundrum is this:

Can you get a decent 50 Hz response from 6.5 inch speakers? I have run a test tone CD on the stock 160W system and found that 50 Hz reponse was weak (bass set to +1) and 40 Hz was non existent.

Having run the same test CD on my home system, I know that 50Hz response in the car would be more than satisfactory.

Soooooo, will an aftermarket head unit and coax speakers be capable of this?

Don't want to eat the trunk real estate for a subwoofer if I don't have to. Don't want to deaden / seal the doors if I don't have to either (winter in Canada means oiling the car and I don't want to risk interfereing with the spray process)

Am I expecting too much?

Toxis · 05-10-2008, 11:56 PM

oh hell no. No coax will give you that sort of depth. Now you could go a free air 6.5" sub (Tang Band or eD for example) or if you have an SI or EX, you can get an 8" in the rear deck and get 50htz fairly easily. Hell, two 6.5's and an 8" wouldn't be too bad or bore out the 6.5's for a pair of 8's and have up to 3 8's in the rear deck... see, you just have to get creative!

bikinpunk · 05-11-2008, 08:23 PM

I can get 50hz out of mine, but with only moderate volume, playing quality recorded music (ie: not pop/rap).

If I crank it, they tend to bottom out.

eub · 05-11-2008, 08:53 PM

This is my speculation, because I haven't run a SPL response curve w/ a test CD...

It would be quite optimistic to look for 50Hz response from a 6.5" driver in a typical car installation. The car door just isn't the "ideal" matched speaker box, and most 6.5" speakers roll off -3db way before they get to 50Hz.

If you are set on not having a subwoofer, get the biggest 6.5 drivers you can, and seal the door. I suspect that's what bikinpunk has done.

oldfart · 05-13-2008, 11:28 AM

OK. So I have taken the plunge and replaced my front speakers with Eclipse SE8365s. MOved the whole soundstage up from the floor to closer to head level. What a difference.

However, I have lost what little bass was there with teh stock speakers. Will look at how to integrate an 8" IB sub (maybe two) into the rear deck of my LX sedan.

Wish me luck.......

eub · 05-13-2008, 11:31 PM

sounds like a fun project. you know the SI sedan has a 8" sub in the middle of the rear deck, but the LX's don't, and don't have a cut out for it either. but if you don't mind cutting metal, that area will fit at least 8" in terms of diameter.

the tension (?) bars might cause some depth fitment problems though.

oldfart · 05-14-2008, 09:22 AM

Well Toxis has got me thinkin....

Took a paper cutout to the car, removed one rear speaker and determined that an 8" driver will fit in the stok locations with some snippin' and greasin'.

Looking at using a 50W x 4 channel amp off the head unit to power all four speakers. Is it possible to set the rears up as subwoofers with roll off to the fronts? Then I could fade back and forth to suit the program, passengers, etc.

Osager · 05-14-2008, 09:32 AM

I have a friend who set up his rears as subs and it works for him. Rear speakers are kinda overrated so this may be a very good option for you.

I like my Hertz MLK 165. They go pretty low but I haven't bothered to test them formally. They sound great. If you want, I'll download some test files and let you know exactly what they are doing. I am subless and it's ok for me because I don't listen to music that demands too much bass. If you are a hip hop or house or electronica fan, you will have to suck it up and get a sub. If not, you just need to spend a bit more on really good front speakers and you should be OK.

Good luck!!! Let us know what you end up doing.

Toxis · 05-15-2008, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldfart

Well Toxis has got me thinkin....

Took a paper cutout to the car, removed one rear speaker and determined that an 8" driver will fit in the stok locations with some snippin' and greasin'.

Looking at using a 50W x 4 channel amp off the head unit to power all four speakers. Is it possible to set the rears up as subwoofers with roll off to the fronts? Then I could fade back and forth to suit the program, passengers, etc.

are you saying the amp built into the head unit? Or are you looking at an external amp? What kind of radio do you have? From my knowledge, I haven't seen a radio that can power a sub. The crossover part is only for high pass typically plus you won't have the power to get any low frequency output with 18-22w per speaker. Get an external amp and you'll be happier. If you don't need rears, you can get a beefy enough 4ch and be good. If you need rears, get a 5ch and run the 5th channel to a single 8 in the rear deck.

eub · 05-15-2008, 01:39 AM

curious what 8" IB drivers do you have on your short list?

if you get cut a spacer out of mdf, and mount the speaker on the underside of the reardeck, there's LOTS of room, at least on the sedans (for some reason i keep thinking you mentioned you have a sedan)...

oldfart · 05-15-2008, 08:27 AM

Quote:

are you saying the amp built into the head unit? Or are you looking at an external amp? What kind of radio do you have? From my knowledge, I haven't seen a radio that can power a sub. The crossover part is only for high pass typically plus you won't have the power to get any low frequency output with 18-22w per speaker. Get an external amp and you'll be happier. If you don't need rears, you can get a beefy enough 4ch and be good. If you need rears, get a 5ch and run the 5th channel to a single 8 in the rear deck.

Sorry for the confusion. It will have to be an external amp added to the stock 160W radio, using the speaker level inputs on the new amp. Unless...???...has anyone tried to install pre-outs on the stock radio? I read on another site that some guys used to do this "back in the day...."(I hate that expression now). Or would the head-ache not be worth the improvement in the signal? Or would the head unit from an SI be a better source?

Quote:

curious what 8" IB drivers do you have on your short list?

if you get cut a spacer out of mdf, and mount the speaker on the underside of the reardeck, there's LOTS of room, at least on the sedans (for some reason i keep thinking you mentioned you have a sedan)...

Yes it is an LX sedan. I don't have a short list yet, but I am wondering now if 2 8# subs might be too much and turn the car into a seismograph disturber.
If I mount a single sub under the center ofthe rear deck, I could cut a hole and then either perforate the deck cover (stealth is everything..) or add a generic grill cover (painted to match deck).

eub · 05-16-2008, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldfart

Yes it is an LX sedan. I don't have a short list yet, but I am wondering now if 2 8# subs might be too much and turn the car into a seismograph disturber.
If I mount a single sub under the center ofthe rear deck, I could cut a hole and then either perforate the deck cover (stealth is everything..) or add a generic grill cover (painted to match deck).

i guess if you find a quality 8" woofer that doesn't require an enclosure, and it fits, then why not? your car would only be as much a seismographic distruber as the music you play...

the rear deck does rattle a bit as people w/ stock subwoofers have found, so if you go the fancy route of cutting a hole, do put osme sound deadneing foam on.

good luck with it, keep us posted!

Toxis · 05-16-2008, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldfart

Sorry for the confusion. It will have to be an external amp added to the stock 160W radio, using the speaker level inputs on the new amp. Unless...???...has anyone tried to install pre-outs on the stock radio? I read on another site that some guys used to do this "back in the day...."(I hate that expression now). Or would the head-ache not be worth the improvement in the signal? Or would the head unit from an SI be a better source?

I have never heard of someone installing preouts on a stock radio but you can always use a line out converter. The stock 160w means nothing at that point though.

oldfart · 05-16-2008, 08:35 AM

True enough. However, a line out converter simply reduces the amount of speaker level signal, which includes any distortion from the original head unit amplifiers.

Pre-outs take the source signal before the head unit amplification stage.
My question is, will the distortion from the stock radio amplifiers be amplified again by the aftermarket amp to the point where it is noticable? In other words, would an SI radio plugged into the pre-out inputs of an aftermarket amplifier sound noticably better than the LX radio plugged into the speaker level inputs of the same aftermarket amplifier?

eub · 05-16-2008, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldfart

True enough. However, a line out converter simply reduces the amount of speaker level signal, which includes any distortion from the original head unit amplifiers.

Pre-outs take the source signal before the head unit amplification stage.
My question is, will the distortion from the stock radio amplifiers be amplified again by the aftermarket amp to the point where it is noticable? In other words, would an SI radio plugged into the pre-out inputs of an aftermarket amplifier sound noticably better than the LX radio plugged into the speaker level inputs of the same aftermarket amplifier?

i've never been happy with a system that used LOCs. i chalk that up to 33% pyschology, 33% ofthe LOC adding its own noise/distortion into the system, and 33% that quality aftermarket units are better sources to begin wiht. :)

so for me it'd be a comparison of the trouble of getting a SI unit to fit versus the potential benefit...

the collective members of this board must have so many si stock headunits lying around that you can probably get one for cheap. 4 LOCs will probably cost you the same!

maybe one thing to research real quick is to make sure the basic wiring is the same with the stock harness? (i think they are/should be), but as you know the SI does have a OEM outboard amplifier, and that extra harness probably isn't in the LX.

side question: seems like you already have your eclipse spkrs installed? how do you like them with the stock deck? any LOC/si headunit impact will affect the front speakers more than your (future) rear subs IMO, so if you are OK with how the front sounds right now, maybe that's an argument not to do extra work for the time being

oldfart · 05-16-2008, 12:34 PM

Quote:

side question: seems like you already have your eclipse spkrs installed? how do you like them with the stock deck?

They are great! The installer was very suprised at the improvement from the stock sound. Crisp, clean and no mud. Compared to Alpine S series when shopping and althought he Alpines had slightly better bass, the Eclipses were better on vocals and acoustical recordings. Choir recordings sound awesome. However, no response below 80hz. Playing with sound settings on the head unit, and seems that Fader set to C - R3 works best depending on source material.

Hence all the questions about subs....

bsbabcock · 05-16-2008, 02:06 PM

A couple 8's wouldn't be overkill if tuned right.. It would be nice and tight I'd think, if not sub-sonically low-reaching but spectacular in the mid-bass region. Kicker makes an 8" IB pair I see on ebay a lot. Haven't seen anyone try them here strangely. Kicker SSMB8

Trick is how are you going to mount two 8's?
I think the rear deck is two 6 1/2" mids and for EX's and Si's another single 8" in between.

bikinpunk · 05-19-2008, 01:26 AM

a couple 8's IB aren't going to get a lot of air moving... not in the way you're asking. But, it should be enough to appease those looking for a bit of low end.

Mounting the 8's should be relatively easy. Use a 3/4" layer of MDF and make your own rear deck. I've seen a guy with 4 8's IB in the rear deck of our car. Suh-weet!

bsbabcock · 05-19-2008, 01:57 PM

Hey how about the peerless SLS 6.5"? Stumbled again on this driver and thought of this thread.

This doesn't look like the average bear... Looks like a big ole' bumpin' subwoofer posing as a 6.5" driver. Fs 36.1hz

Peerless 830946 SLS 6.5" woofer - 4 ohm from Madisound

Might probably not be appropriate for a 2-way setup but with mids and tweets, might be a monster for mid-bass.

bikinpunk · 05-19-2008, 03:53 PM

It's still only a 6.5" speaker. IME there's only so low you're going to get at the volume *I* listen to my music at. Sure, I can get 50hz out of a 6.5" speaker, but it's not going to be with any significant volume.

You guys need to find Maxorz's install thread. I know he's working on putting 8" SLS's in his coupe. The molding of the door panel is significantly different than that of a Sedan, thus I'm stuck with a 6.5" unless I mod the panel itself. Something I will not do.

05-10-2008, 10:35 PM	#1 (permalink)
oldfart Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 25 iTrader: 0 / 0%	50 Hz possible from 6.5 speakers? So in my slowly winding road to stereo upgrade city, My latest conundrum is this: Can you get a decent 50 Hz response from 6.5 inch speakers? I have run a test tone CD on the stock 160W system and found that 50 Hz reponse was weak (bass set to +1) and 40 Hz was non existent. Having run the same test CD on my home system, I know that 50Hz response in the car would be more than satisfactory. Soooooo, will an aftermarket head unit and coax speakers be capable of this? Don't want to eat the trunk real estate for a subwoofer if I don't have to. Don't want to deaden / seal the doors if I don't have to either (winter in Canada means oiling the car and I don't want to risk interfereing with the spray process) Am I expecting too much?

05-15-2008, 01:39 AM	#10 (permalink)
eub Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 40 iTrader: 0 / 0%	curious what 8" IB drivers do you have on your short list? if you get cut a spacer out of mdf, and mount the speaker on the underside of the reardeck, there's LOTS of room, at least on the sedans (for some reason i keep thinking you mentioned you have a sedan)... Last edited by eub; 05-15-2008 at 01:46 AM.

05-19-2008, 01:57 PM	#19 (permalink)
bsbabcock Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 301 iTrader: 0 / 0%	Hey how about the peerless SLS 6.5"? Stumbled again on this driver and thought of this thread. This doesn't look like the average bear... Looks like a big ole' bumpin' subwoofer posing as a 6.5" driver. Fs 36.1hz Peerless 830946 SLS 6.5" woofer - 4 ohm from Madisound Might probably not be appropriate for a 2-way setup but with mids and tweets, might be a monster for mid-bass. Last edited by bsbabcock; 05-19-2008 at 01:59 PM.

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05-10-2008, 11:56 PM	#2 (permalink)
Toxis Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Italy Of Course! Age: 28 Posts: 3,797 Even Women Aren't Safe iTrader: 10 / 100%	oh hell no. No coax will give you that sort of depth. Now you could go a free air 6.5" sub (Tang Band or eD for example) or if you have an SI or EX, you can get an 8" in the rear deck and get 50htz fairly easily. Hell, two 6.5's and an 8" wouldn't be too bad or bore out the 6.5's for a pair of 8's and have up to 3 8's in the rear deck... see, you just have to get creative!

05-11-2008, 08:23 PM	#3 (permalink)
bikinpunk Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Age: 25 Posts: 2,826 Erin iTrader: 3 / 100%	I can get 50hz out of mine, but with only moderate volume, playing quality recorded music (ie: not pop/rap). If I crank it, they tend to bottom out.

05-11-2008, 08:53 PM	#4 (permalink)
eub Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 40 iTrader: 0 / 0%	This is my speculation, because I haven't run a SPL response curve w/ a test CD... It would be quite optimistic to look for 50Hz response from a 6.5" driver in a typical car installation. The car door just isn't the "ideal" matched speaker box, and most 6.5" speakers roll off -3db way before they get to 50Hz. If you are set on not having a subwoofer, get the biggest 6.5 drivers you can, and seal the door. I suspect that's what bikinpunk has done.

05-13-2008, 11:28 AM	#5 (permalink)
oldfart Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 25 iTrader: 0 / 0%	OK. So I have taken the plunge and replaced my front speakers with Eclipse SE8365s. MOved the whole soundstage up from the floor to closer to head level. What a difference. However, I have lost what little bass was there with teh stock speakers. Will look at how to integrate an 8" IB sub (maybe two) into the rear deck of my LX sedan. Wish me luck.......

05-13-2008, 11:31 PM	#6 (permalink)
eub Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 40 iTrader: 0 / 0%	sounds like a fun project. you know the SI sedan has a 8" sub in the middle of the rear deck, but the LX's don't, and don't have a cut out for it either. but if you don't mind cutting metal, that area will fit at least 8" in terms of diameter. the tension (?) bars might cause some depth fitment problems though.

05-14-2008, 09:22 AM	#7 (permalink)
oldfart Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 25 iTrader: 0 / 0%	Well Toxis has got me thinkin.... Took a paper cutout to the car, removed one rear speaker and determined that an 8" driver will fit in the stok locations with some snippin' and greasin'. Looking at using a 50W x 4 channel amp off the head unit to power all four speakers. Is it possible to set the rears up as subwoofers with roll off to the fronts? Then I could fade back and forth to suit the program, passengers, etc.

05-14-2008, 09:32 AM	#8 (permalink)
Osager Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 19 iTrader: 0 / 0%	I have a friend who set up his rears as subs and it works for him. Rear speakers are kinda overrated so this may be a very good option for you. I like my Hertz MLK 165. They go pretty low but I haven't bothered to test them formally. They sound great. If you want, I'll download some test files and let you know exactly what they are doing. I am subless and it's ok for me because I don't listen to music that demands too much bass. If you are a hip hop or house or electronica fan, you will have to suck it up and get a sub. If not, you just need to spend a bit more on really good front speakers and you should be OK. Good luck!!! Let us know what you end up doing.

05-16-2008, 08:35 AM	#14 (permalink)
oldfart Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 25 iTrader: 0 / 0%	True enough. However, a line out converter simply reduces the amount of speaker level signal, which includes any distortion from the original head unit amplifiers. Pre-outs take the source signal before the head unit amplification stage. My question is, will the distortion from the stock radio amplifiers be amplified again by the aftermarket amp to the point where it is noticable? In other words, would an SI radio plugged into the pre-out inputs of an aftermarket amplifier sound noticably better than the LX radio plugged into the speaker level inputs of the same aftermarket amplifier?

05-16-2008, 02:06 PM	#17 (permalink)
bsbabcock Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 301 iTrader: 0 / 0%	A couple 8's wouldn't be overkill if tuned right.. It would be nice and tight I'd think, if not sub-sonically low-reaching but spectacular in the mid-bass region. Kicker makes an 8" IB pair I see on ebay a lot. Haven't seen anyone try them here strangely. Kicker SSMB8 Trick is how are you going to mount two 8's? I think the rear deck is two 6 1/2" mids and for EX's and Si's another single 8" in between.

05-19-2008, 01:26 AM	#18 (permalink)
bikinpunk Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Age: 25 Posts: 2,826 Erin iTrader: 3 / 100%	a couple 8's IB aren't going to get a lot of air moving... not in the way you're asking. But, it should be enough to appease those looking for a bit of low end. Mounting the 8's should be relatively easy. Use a 3/4" layer of MDF and make your own rear deck. I've seen a guy with 4 8's IB in the rear deck of our car. Suh-weet!

05-19-2008, 03:53 PM	#20 (permalink)
bikinpunk Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Age: 25 Posts: 2,826 Erin iTrader: 3 / 100%	It's still only a 6.5" speaker. IME there's only so low you're going to get at the volume I listen to my music at. Sure, I can get 50hz out of a 6.5" speaker, but it's not going to be with any significant volume. You guys need to find Maxorz's install thread. I know he's working on putting 8" SLS's in his coupe. The molding of the door panel is significantly different than that of a Sedan, thus I'm stuck with a 6.5" unless I mod the panel itself. Something I will not do.