My evaluation of the Factory EX sedan stereo...

[bearsfeat]

Well,

Tonight on my way home I stopped in at my local Honda dealer with disk and asked to demo the factory stereo... I used a disk that is an audiophile benchmark standard for evaluating a system for clarity - Jennifer Warnes, "Famous Blue Raincoat" is the album and "Joan of Arc" is the tune... It is not something that I would normally listen to. It is not a bad tune, but it is just not my preferred style of music. My uncle used to work at ADS (wish he still did... He hooked me up before with some great equipment...) and he told me about the "Joan of Arc" tune. Anyway, this song is supposedly produced with perfect clarity, and it has a full spectrum of sounds from silence to very delicate highs to deep punchy bass notes... It is really nice to hear it on a very high end system. Jennifer Warnes has a really solid voice. But you all probably don't want to hear about that - you want to hear about what I think of the factory instal... right?

Well, maybe you caught my intro posted a few days ago... If not, I am coming from a 1997 Jetta GLS (Franklin is his name with 198,000 miles) with factory amp and speakers with an Eclipse HU and CD changer. I went into the dealer hoping to find a sedan in the showroom. No such luck, but the very nice sales manager (isn't that how they get the job, by being very nice?) brought me out in the drizzle and gave me the keys to an EX sedan and said "have fun, bring the keys in when you are done." So I sat in the lot with the thing turned up to 40 (max) and listened carefully. It was CLEAR, the silence was silent - no hiss at max vol. The highs were very nice and crisp. The bass was strong, but I feel it was not tight enough. It was a bit bouncy (please excuse my technical terminology...) My biggest complaint, though (yes, I am complaining here) is the volume should go up to 50 or 60... IOW, it was not loud enough. I enjoyed my 10 minute stay in the car that I will buy in the next month or so, then, I got out and returned the key. Then I sat for another ten minutes in the lot with the disk loaded in my Eclipse changer in Franklin, my aging yet beloved Jetter, and gave the song another listen. Back to back, so to speak. I think my Eclipse HU maxes out at 74 on the vol. but I seldom need to push it to that. Tonight I set it to 70-72 and listened. "hmmm." I said, "I hear hiss" There was a small amount of hiss there. I never noticed it before - but then I don't really ever listen to Jennifer Warnes, nor have I ever given the listening experience in my car such scrutiny. So nothing is perfect, right? The Highs were also very crisp and high and clear and the bass very tight and powerful. Best of all, it was LOUD. Louder than the Civic, anyway.

As I mentioned in my intro, my 12 hours spent in a rented Volvo V70 was the most fun I've ever had with a factory stereo. THAT was an experience. I listened to Pink Floyd "The Wall" on that trip to Syracuse and heard things I had never noticed before in the 15? years of listening to that disc. I had Bob Marley and Donald Fagan and Frankie Bones and Mark Farina and Busta Rhymes and Many others cranked the whole trip. I was alone and enjoyed every minute. That stereo was loud enough by far. I honestly don't think I ever turned it ALL THE WAY UP.

So, I am sad to say that, while the Honda factory system sounds decent, it is only decent in my opinion. And the Jetta wins - at least w/ an after market HU. Unfortunately, the Si is not an option. I need the 4 doors.

Now, I need to find a HU that will suit my needs (any reccommendations?); but, the biggest challenge will be to convince my wife that I NEED an upgrade and that the factory unit is not good enough. I guess I can't ask for help on that part...

Wish me luck.

bearsfeat

[Terrain.org]

The Si sedan will be out this fall, if you can wait....

[YOGIx213]

Aftermarket headunit makes a world of difference, even with stock speakers.

[webby]

Originally Posted by Terrain.org

The Si sedan will be out this fall, if you can wait....

Civic SI Sedan Comes To America - Chicago Auto Show Debut

[moxom]

Originally Posted by bearsfeat

So, I am sad to say that, while the Honda factory system sounds decent, it is only decent in my opinion.

bearsfeat

I completely agree with you. I'm upgrading my sound system this week because I'm not happy wi the srock system.
I doubt that the Si sounds much better as it uses the same full-range speakers in the front and rear. The Si adds two tweeters in the front an eight inch "sub" and an amplifier for the "sub".

[GregM]

First of all, thanks for sharing your observations.

Any stereo you put in a car will ultimately be "decent" and nothing more. The quest for audio perfection in a home system is one thing--I have pursued that for years and found it very rewarding. Cars are another matter. No matter what you do, you have the following limitations that would cause any true audiophile to throw up their hands: road noise, wind noise, engine noise, vibration, improper speaker placement in relation to the listener...those are simply insurmountable no matter what you do or how much money you spend. Yes, you can minimize noise and vibration with various dampeners, but there will always be some bleed and the speaker placement is fixed.

I have several problems with the premise of this thread.
1. Hiss is bad
2. You need to blast your system to determine audio quality
3. Listening in a parked car is indicative of stereo performance
4. The number shown on the volume display indicates the actual power or decibel level

1. Hiss is present in almost all recordings because of the analog nature of musical instruments and recording devices. When you hear no hiss in music, it is due to the use of digital noise reduction. These algorithms remove any content present at high frequencies that your ears perceive as hiss. The problem is that the noise reduction algorithms can't distinguish actual music content of these high frequencies, e.g., cymbals, overtones in female voices, percussion, etc., from unwanted hiss. In other words, you are losing valuable information that is audible from real instruments. As an audiophile, you should be horrified by this. It makes the music less realistic, thinner, and more "synthetic" sounding. Hiss is our friend, especially in older music that was recorded to analog tape.

2. The quality of your system can easily be determined without blasting it to the max. Simply listen critically to the tones, tone changes as a function of time, and stereophonic performance or imaging. How convincing is the music reproduction? All you will do by blasting it at earsplitting levels is damage your ears (which are very sensitive devices that cannot be fixed once the cilia or other delicate parts are damaged) and eventually your stereo system.

3. To get a real idea of how a car stereo performs, you need to listen while you're driving. For obvious reasons.

4. Remember that seen in Spinal Tap when the dude insists his amp is louder than anyone else's because it goes up to "11" instead of just "10"? The reason this is so funny is because it is obviously bullsh*t. Numbers on amps and receivers these days are simply a marketing gimick designed to appeal to complete morons. In my home system I use a tube amp rated at 80 watts per channel, but if you listened to it, you'd swear it was more powerful than transistor amps rated at more than a couple hundred watts per channel. Point is, the design of the amp and the quality of the parts used is the critical factor, not the number appearing on your display. The volume knob (yes it's a knob with no remote control and no LED display) on my VAC amp has no numbers, just little dots at 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 1, 2, 3 and 4 o'clock.

As for the quality of the stock system, I think it's sufficient. The tweeters make a big difference. I certainly don't see the need to dump money into a flashier aftermarket system. These days, they all use cheap east asian parts and there is poor attention to detail in the design and grounding of each circuit which is essential in quality audio gear. The factors I mentioned as insurmountable in a car system will be the limiting facts no matter what. So if I was to do anything to improve the audio, it would be to use dynamat or other dampening products in the doors, flooring and other parts of the car's chassis.

[moxom]

Originally Posted by GregM

. . It makes the music less realistic, thinner, and more "synthetic" sounding. Hiss is our friend, especially in older music that was recorded to analog tape.

Hiss is not present in musical instruments. It is a by-product of the analog recording process. Digital recording equipment exhibits no hiss on a recording and it does not employee hiss removal techniques because it doesn't have to. Hiss is not my friend because it reduces dynamic range.

Music recording and reproduction is a synthetic process. It does not matter if you have Altec W7s powered by a WE 300B triode, or a pair of Polk's powered by a stock head unit; it's all fake and cannot compare in any way shape or form to the live experience. All we can rely on is our feeble systems and a great imagination to convince ourselves that it's real.

My roommate and I used to build and collect HiFi equipment as well so I know what a good system sounds like. However, good sound is relative and purely subjective (Analog vs. digital debate). If it weren't; we would have 1 speaker manufacturer, 1 amplifier manufacturer, etc.

Upgrading and tweaking is a hobby for most of us and a profession for some. However, if a better sounding system can help the commute more bearable, then it's definitely worth it-light show and all.

[r3dlin3]

I think you get a "decent" system for what you pay for. I think Honda's main goal was to make a good sounding system that would last. A system that wouldn't blow it's speakers up if pushed up to "40."

I've turned the EX system up and it stayed relatively clear, not extremely loud though. I don't think it would blow even if you left it up that loud for an hour.

Honda probably wants to make sure that the system runs as long as the car will last - forever? I know it would suck for me if I had 200k miles on my car but my speakers only lasted 30k.

I added an Elemental Designs 9kv2 ("8" woofer) in a sealed box and a Elemental nine4 amp, pushing about 200 watts. Despite the decent interior speakers the civic needed the sub frequencies badly.

[kenchan]

the factory EX sedan stereo speakers suck. this came to me within the first 20-30sec of the test drive. no bass wat so ever, tingling but uncontrolled mid-highs's (mine didn't come with the sub system for the rear deck), just
a huge dissappointment.

i swapped out the front sp's with polks, left the rear as is, and added a small Bazooka bass tube for fill. sounds pretty damn good and didn't cost me much...well under $300. if you ebay, you can probably get this done closer to $200.

[8thgenuser]

Originally Posted by bearsfeat

So I sat in the lot with the thing turned up to 40 (max) and listened carefully. It was CLEAR, the silence was silent - no hiss at max vol. The highs were very nice and crisp. The bass was strong, but I feel it was not tight enough. It was a bit bouncy (please excuse my technical terminology...) My biggest complaint, though (yes, I am complaining here) is the volume should go up to 50 or 60... IOW, it was not loud enough. I enjoyed my 10 minute stay in the car that I will buy in the next month or so, then, I got out and returned the key.

Honda is known for its good safety ratings in it's small vehicles. A lower decibel limit is yet another ingenious safety feature. It'll save your hearing!

[bearsfeat]

Originally Posted by GregM

I have several problems with the premise of this thread.
1. Hiss is bad
2. You need to blast your system to determine audio quality
3. Listening in a parked car is indicative of stereo performance
4. The number shown on the volume display indicates the actual power or decibel level

1. Hiss is present in almost all recordings because of the analog nature of musical instruments and recording devices. When you hear no hiss in music, it is due to the use of digital noise reduction. These algorithms remove any content present at high frequencies that your ears perceive as hiss. The problem is that the noise reduction algorithms can't distinguish actual music content of these high frequencies, e.g., cymbals, overtones in female voices, percussion, etc., from unwanted hiss. In other words, you are losing valuable information that is audible from real instruments. As an audiophile, you should be horrified by this. It makes the music less realistic, thinner, and more "synthetic" sounding. Hiss is our friend, especially in older music that was recorded to analog tape.

2. The quality of your system can easily be determined without blasting it to the max. Simply listen critically to the tones, tone changes as a function of time, and stereophonic performance or imaging. How convincing is the music reproduction? All you will do by blasting it at earsplitting levels is damage your ears (which are very sensitive devices that cannot be fixed once the cilia or other delicate parts are damaged) and eventually your stereo system.

3. To get a real idea of how a car stereo performs, you need to listen while you're driving. For obvious reasons.

4. Remember that seen in Spinal Tap when the dude insists his amp is louder than anyone else's because it goes up to "11" instead of just "10"? The reason this is so funny is because it is obviously bullsh*t. Numbers on amps and receivers these days are simply a marketing gimick designed to appeal to complete morons. In my home system I use a tube amp rated at 80 watts per channel, but if you listened to it, you'd swear it was more powerful than transistor amps rated at more than a couple hundred watts per channel. Point is, the design of the amp and the quality of the parts used is the critical factor, not the number appearing on your display. The volume knob (yes it's a knob with no remote control and no LED display) on my VAC amp has no numbers, just little dots at 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 1, 2, 3 and 4 o'clock.

1. Hiss IS bad if it is not present in the recording. There IS NO HISS in the Joan of Arc track I am referring to. They did make an LP record player for the car at one time ... I imagine that only worked well in parked cars and I bet it reproduced hiss very well... <G> I do not aspire to be an audiophile. I'm a coffee snob, that's bad enough. I just like good clear music, but really am not finacially positioned to be a real live audiophile.

2. While I agree with you that music can be too loud, and I will add that a given system will likely distort the signals at its upper end of output power, but my goal here was simply to compare, as closely as I could, the two systems. I needed to answer the question to myself, "will this factory unit be as good, as clear, as loud, as the one that will likely get sold on eBay?"

3. I will argue with you that if the system does not perform to my liking while parked with the engine off, then it does not have much chance of satisfying my 'needs' while on the road.

4. Of course I know that. My comment was a joke; mostly poking fun at the human interface designers... Why does Eclipse go up to 74, Honda go to 30, Subaru to 24, and McIntosh leaves the numbers off? It is just silly in my opinion. What happened to 1 thru 10? Spinal Tap started something and I think it is silly. That was my point. What we REALLY need is a volume knob that goes up to infinity... Then it will surely be loud enough. (that was another joke...)

I do appreciate all of your comments. Thanks a lot.

-bearsfeat

[GregM]

Originally Posted by moxom

Hiss is not present in musical instruments. It is a by-product of the analog recording process.

Where does the hiss end and the instrument begin in, say, the reed noise from someone blowing into a clarinet, or striking a drumstick against a ride cymbal? Do you feel comfortable having some code-writer create an algorithm that effectively chops off the signal at a certain frequency and answers the question for you? I don't.

Digital recording equipment exhibits no hiss on a recording and it does not employee hiss removal techniques because it doesn't have to. Hiss is not my friend because it reduces dynamic range.

Nonsense. The music is in the analog realm. Slapping it onto a hard drive instead of tape is not going to change the nature of music, of cords/physical connections, of the analog realm. Hiss shows you have extended dynamic range, especially when that noise extends up to 20 kHz and beyond. Do you realize waves in excess of 85kHz have been measured from a trumpet? Absense of hiss and of this ultrasonic information means the music is getting chopped somewhere.

Music recording and reproduction is a synthetic process. It does not matter if you have Altec W7s powered by a WE 300B triode, or a pair of Polk's powered by a stock head unit; it's all fake and cannot compare in any way shape or form to the live experience.

The way some PA systems and rooms are set up these days, you bet it can. I went to a show last friday and the audio was horrible, boomy, sucked out in the high range and overemphasized in the midbass range. I enjoyed the band, but their CD sounded a million times better.

My roommate and I used to build and collect HiFi equipment as well so I know what a good system sounds like. However, good sound is relative and purely subjective (Analog vs. digital debate). If it weren't; we would have 1 speaker manufacturer, 1 amplifier manufacturer, etc.

Ok, agreed. You gotta go with what sounds best to you.

[striker_1818]

You must be deaf to turn it up to 70 and drive on the road.
Next time you go on a trip tell us or at least tell me in advance so i won't expose my nor my passangers lives in danger...
20 is loud enough

[bearsfeat]

Originally Posted by striker_1818

You must be deaf to turn it up to 70 and drive on the road.
Next time you go on a trip tell us or at least tell me in advance so i won't expose my nor my passangers lives in danger...
20 is loud enough

No, you don't get it. My point is that 20 is the SAME as 70 depending on the stereo you have. Show me where in my post does it say that I listened to music at 70 while I drive, please.

Well, I guess I have listened to music at FULL volume before. Yes, while driving. Sorry for endangering you.

-bearsfeat

[striker_1818]

Originally Posted by bearsfeat

So I sat in the lot with the thing turned up to 40 (max) and listened carefully. It was CLEAR, the silence was silent - no hiss at max vol. The highs were very nice and crisp. The bass was strong, but I feel it was not tight enough. It was a bit bouncy (please excuse my technical terminology...) My biggest complaint, though (yes, I am complaining here) is the volume should go up to 50 or 60... IOW, it was not loud enough. I enjoyed my 10 minute stay in the car that I will buy in the next month or so, then, I got out and returned the key. Then I sat for another ten minutes in the lot with the disk loaded in my Eclipse changer in Franklin, my aging yet beloved Jetter, and gave the song another listen. Back to back, so to speak. I think my Eclipse HU maxes out at 74 on the vol. but I seldom need to push it to that. Tonight I set it to 70-72 and listened. "hmmm." I said, "I hear hiss" There was a small amount of hiss there. I never noticed it before - but then I don't really ever listen to Jennifer Warnes, nor have I ever given the listening experience in my car such scrutiny. So nothing is perfect, right? The Highs were also very crisp and high and clear and the bass very tight and powerful. Best of all, it was LOUD. Louder than the Civic, anyway.

As I mentioned in my intro, my 12 hours spent in a rented Volvo V70 was the most fun I've ever had with a factory stereo. THAT was an experience. That stereo was loud enough by far. I honestly don't think I ever turned it ALL THE WAY UP.

So, I am sad to say that, while the Honda factory system sounds decent, it is only decent in my opinion. And the Jetta wins - at least w/ an after market HU. Unfortunately, the Si is not an option. I need the 4 doors.

Now, I need to find a HU that will suit my needs (any reccommendations?); but, the biggest challenge will be to convince my wife that I NEED an upgrade and that the factory unit is not good enough. I guess I can't ask for help on that part...

Wish me luck.

bearsfeat

Read whats in bold. You complained because honda's stereo maxes out at 40 whereas u want it to max out at 60 since you want it "Louder".
That scared that crap outta me especially when u mentioned u rented a volve and listened to your "songs" and quote "That stereo was loud enough by far". Even though you didn't turn it up all the way up as you stated in that same sentence.

BTW, on my previous post i apologize and take back the "You must be deaf to turn it up to 70 and drive on the road." since you did not state that anywhere but got me confused.

[yippieguy]

aside from the "automatic volume control versus speed"option...

i think my factory LX deck did some whacky eq stuff.. like changing the frequency curve as I changed the volume. Stuff that engineers may consider "intelligent" for use in a car.. you know.. boost the bass and treble at lower volumes.. kill some bass once you crank the volume up high. Maybe I'm crazy, but that's something that I noticed... I didn't care for it.

i ALSO noticed that with the SAME speakers, I was able to get much more treble using my aftermarket alpine deck. Maybe the gain at the given frequency has more boost range on the alpine, or is in a 'sweeter' spot for these factory speakers.

I'm kinda torn. I really like the amount of mid-bass that my factory speakers have (when powered by around 16 watts rms each from my alpine) .. and I KNOW that my Infinity kappa's won't come close to that amount of bass once i put them into the doors... and I'll be left with the same old mid-bass hole that I used to have in my last installation using the same speakers.

sigh.

.. please.. comment.

[lostdaytomorrow]

Holy old thread batman.

[lexusguy]

you wonder why the volvo sound good,those old volvos have vifa drivers.allot of high end companies use their drivers,from car audio to 20k home speakers.

[yippieguy]

yup. sure is.

I found it interesting just the same. a good read stands the test of time.