Flash pro and rev matching.... hmmm...

TinoCivicSi · 03-31-2010, 04:45 PM

I remember when I first plugged in my flashpro a couple ago I quite literally said 'oh ****! This thing does EVERYTHING!'

I'm very impressed and its very daunting to someone that doesn't know much about tuning, so I've been leaving my 'tuning' to stock maps etc until I learn more etc.

My question is with all the technology and innovation in the flashpro is there going to be a function developed for rev matching when downshifting eventually? Evo's and GTI's I believe both have this stock where the ecu detects a down shift and it blips the throttle before the clutch is disengaged to ensure a nice smooth down shift while tromping thru the foothills... This shouldn't be to hard to create in FP would it?

I kinda put it out the tuner powers that be to discuss... hey this might already be in the software and I"m just too dumb to recognize it... but I do know that there are no stupid questions, just stupid people and I can live with being the latter.

Anybody?

G-Ray · 03-31-2010, 04:52 PM

Good question. I would like to know also!!

grmachine · 03-31-2010, 04:52 PM

Why not just learn how to rev-match, double clutch and/or heel-toe? Why depend on an electronic component when you can easily do the same thing yourself? Relying on a computer to do everything for you teaches you to be lazy about how you drive and it definitely won't improve your driving skill. Might as well just get an A/T.

That's just my 2 cents... Sorry OP, I know that wasn't the question; I couldn't help myself.

TinoCivicSi · 03-31-2010, 04:58 PM

I have size 15 EE feet... heel/toe = face in steering wheel...

lol its not quite that bad but it guess precarious if i'm wearing shoes with a bit of a heel on them (boots etc) compared to some skateshoes.

I hear what your sayin tho man totally... learning the true technique will always be better. do you know of somewhere on line that gives GOOD pointers on doubleclutch and heel-toe?

grmachine · 03-31-2010, 05:08 PM

Damn dude!!! You play basketball or something? LOL

Yeah, there are a few good clips somewhere on the site that give you pointers for double-clutching and heel-toe. There are a ton of them on YouTube too... I'll see if I can find a good one and post it up here.

If you have a hard time with heel-toe down shifts don't worry... concentrate on getting the double-clutch down pat and then try heel-toe again when you are comfortable with double-clutching. Also, don't think that because you have big feet you can't do it... you'll just have to find the foot positioning that works best for you.

PS: Driving with boots is generally more difficult than driving with something that has a flat, narrow, soft sole. Try getting some Chucks or even some of the "sporty" Adidas or Puma type shoes... they are great for driving because they really let you feel the pedals, etc...

bludragon · 03-31-2010, 05:16 PM

First, don't try to actually use your heel. Use the ball of your foot on the brake, and the outside of your foot on the throttle.
Second, shoes matter, don't expect to be able to easily switch between skateshoes and cowboy boots!
Third, the only car I know of that has this for a manual transmission is the 370z. I expect that has a bunch of extra sensors in the gearbox to figure out what gear you're aiming for and so would not get my hopes up for the flashpro to simply enable this. The Evo and GTI auto's will take care of this which is maybe where the confusion comes from.
Finally, when you perfect it yourself, it is very satisfying, but be careful! Don't blame anyone but yourself if you accelerate into a lamp post instead of slowing down for a corner :-)

grmachine · 03-31-2010, 05:21 PM

Here you go man... this is a decent video showing the footwork and a text version showing the steps.

Double-Clutch

Once you get good at this, then try heel-toe, don't bother now. This will improve your shifting speed and give you the basics that you need to know to make heel-toe down shifting easier.

The steps for double-clutching are actually quite easy... being good at it just comes with practice. Don't give up; nobody does it perfectly at first. You learn something about your car, about weight transfer and how that translates to a smoother and ultimately faster ride... on top of it, you don't rely on a fallible electronic component to do the work for you.

wowwitsgau · 03-31-2010, 05:24 PM

First of all, this technology is called synchro rev match, and it's optional in the nissan 370z, NOT the evo or GTR. Secondly, you should learn how to at least rev match, if not heel toe correctly on your own. Otherwise, whats the point of buying a manual car?

grmachine · 03-31-2010, 05:28 PM

Sorry OP... didn't mean to turn this into a hatin' session. LOL

Ryan33 · 04-01-2010, 02:21 AM

That would be kinda cool to have a perfect down shift rev match everytime.
But then again rev matching and heel-toeing is all part of the fun of a manual right.
Im sure you can get the heel-toe down although i had some problems at the beginning and i have small feet. Im pretty sure there's no need to double clutch in our cars

TinoCivicSi · 04-02-2010, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grmachine

Sorry OP... didn't mean to turn this into a hatin' session. LOL

lol thx bro... no worries, I appreciate the help

srnich · 04-12-2010, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grmachine

Here you go man... this is a decent video showing the footwork and a text version showing the steps.

Double-Clutch

Once you get good at this, then try heel-toe, don't bother now. This will improve your shifting speed and give you the basics that you need to know to make heel-toe down shifting easier.

The steps for double-clutching are actually quite easy... being good at it just comes with practice. Don't give up; nobody does it perfectly at first. You learn something about your car, about weight transfer and how that translates to a smoother and ultimately faster ride... on top of it, you don't rely on a fallible electronic component to do the work for you.

There is absolutely no reason to double clutch a modern car. This would only make your downshift slower and with unnecessary complication. Double clutching came from the pre-synchro transmission days when it was necessary to match input shaft and gear rotational speeds. About the only people you'll see doing this anymore is truck drivers. Simple clutch in rev match downshifts should be learned and then taken to heel toe technique.

Firestrife · 04-12-2010, 01:45 PM

Yad yad not double clutching, double clutching what matters is that, no the ECU cannot perform this as it does not have the proper sensors and capability installed.
Evo's and GTi's do this only in their Double Clutch/DSG style transmissions, but then again they are more of automatic cars than manuals.
The only real stickshift manual that is capable of rev matching on the downshift is the 370z.

WhiteFrog · 04-12-2010, 02:15 PM

Kinda being a party pooper here, but I don't think it would be a good idea for them, just on the basis of liability alone.

Haven't heard any issues with the synchro-match feature the 370z has, but if you are giving the ECU the ability to rev your engine for you, the code better be done right or you could end up in a tree.

I think the capability to implement this is there though.. It's already drive by wire and what additional sensors do you think you would need? You can figure out what gear you're in just from the speed you're traveling and the rpm.

Firestrife · 04-12-2010, 02:29 PM

Thing is the 370z has sensors where the shifter is to tell what gear your in and when downshifting what gear your going to try to get into. The problem is if your gonna go do one gear down that would probably be adequate for the ECU to handle. However if yoru gonna go from like 6th to 3rd or 5th to 2nd or 3rd. The ECU doesn't know what your trying to get into.

grmachine · 04-12-2010, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by srnich

There is absolutely no reason to double clutch a modern car. This would only make your downshift slower and with unnecessary complication. Double clutching came from the pre-synchro transmission days when it was necessary to match input shaft and gear rotational speeds. About the only people you'll see doing this anymore is truck drivers. Simple clutch in rev match downshifts should be learned and then taken to heel toe technique.

I can double clutch downshift faster than a lot of people can clutch in... so, no, it doesn't slow your downshift unless you are slow on your clutch.

Also... yes, there are good reasons to double clutch. This has been debated a million times though, so I don't really want to get into it again. Let's just say that it's a matter of personal opinion (but mine is right... LOL).

srnich · 04-16-2010, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grmachine

I can double clutch downshift faster than a lot of people can clutch in... so, no, it doesn't slow your downshift unless you are slow on your clutch.

Also... yes, there are good reasons to double clutch. This has been debated a million times though, so I don't really want to get into it again. Let's just say that it's a matter of personal opinion (but mine is right... LOL).

Congrats on your driving abilities, you sound pretty good. I agree there is no reason to debate this as it has been debated a lot before. The results from those debates are that theoretically it can slightly prolong life in a transmission, however, has no benefit for performance or real reason to be performed in a modern synchronized transmission. Lots of F&F kids will think its cool though! Enjoy your opinion (it's wrong.....LOL)

TinoCivicSi · 04-16-2010, 03:13 PM

Kool! Thanks guys I appreciate it... I'm going to lock this down just incase something gets taken wrong and an arguement breaks out... I've just gotta work on my heal/toe

TinoCivicSi · 04-16-2010, 03:16 PM

Apparently I'm not locking it I'll get a Mod to, lol I thought OP's could lock their own threads... I can't find it anywhere.

03-31-2010, 04:45 PM	#1 (permalink)
TinoCivicSi Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Surrey, BC Age: 27 Posts: 927 Austin iTrader: 3 / 100%	Flash pro and rev matching.... hmmm... I remember when I first plugged in my flashpro a couple ago I quite literally said 'oh ****! This thing does EVERYTHING!' I'm very impressed and its very daunting to someone that doesn't know much about tuning, so I've been leaving my 'tuning' to stock maps etc until I learn more etc. My question is with all the technology and innovation in the flashpro is there going to be a function developed for rev matching when downshifting eventually? Evo's and GTI's I believe both have this stock where the ecu detects a down shift and it blips the throttle before the clutch is disengaged to ensure a nice smooth down shift while tromping thru the foothills... This shouldn't be to hard to create in FP would it? I kinda put it out the tuner powers that be to discuss... hey this might already be in the software and I"m just too dumb to recognize it... but I do know that there are no stupid questions, just stupid people and I can live with being the latter. Anybody?

03-31-2010, 05:08 PM	#5 (permalink)
grmachine Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 893 Steve iTrader: 0 / 0%	Damn dude!!! You play basketball or something? LOL Yeah, there are a few good clips somewhere on the site that give you pointers for double-clutching and heel-toe. There are a ton of them on YouTube too... I'll see if I can find a good one and post it up here. If you have a hard time with heel-toe down shifts don't worry... concentrate on getting the double-clutch down pat and then try heel-toe again when you are comfortable with double-clutching. Also, don't think that because you have big feet you can't do it... you'll just have to find the foot positioning that works best for you. PS: Driving with boots is generally more difficult than driving with something that has a flat, narrow, soft sole. Try getting some Chucks or even some of the "sporty" Adidas or Puma type shoes... they are great for driving because they really let you feel the pedals, etc... Last edited by grmachine; 03-31-2010 at 05:11 PM.

03-31-2010, 05:21 PM	#7 (permalink)
grmachine Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 893 Steve iTrader: 0 / 0%	Here you go man... this is a decent video showing the footwork and a text version showing the steps. Double-Clutch Once you get good at this, then try heel-toe, don't bother now. This will improve your shifting speed and give you the basics that you need to know to make heel-toe down shifting easier. The steps for double-clutching are actually quite easy... being good at it just comes with practice. Don't give up; nobody does it perfectly at first. You learn something about your car, about weight transfer and how that translates to a smoother and ultimately faster ride... on top of it, you don't rely on a fallible electronic component to do the work for you. Last edited by grmachine; 03-31-2010 at 05:22 PM.

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03-31-2010, 04:52 PM	#2 (permalink)
G-Ray Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: @home Posts: 834 time iz money, so iz $peed iTrader: 7 / 100%	Good question. I would like to know also!!

03-31-2010, 04:52 PM	#3 (permalink)
grmachine Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 893 Steve iTrader: 0 / 0%	Why not just learn how to rev-match, double clutch and/or heel-toe? Why depend on an electronic component when you can easily do the same thing yourself? Relying on a computer to do everything for you teaches you to be lazy about how you drive and it definitely won't improve your driving skill. Might as well just get an A/T. That's just my 2 cents... Sorry OP, I know that wasn't the question; I couldn't help myself.

03-31-2010, 04:58 PM	#4 (permalink)
TinoCivicSi Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Surrey, BC Age: 27 Posts: 927 Austin iTrader: 3 / 100%	I have size 15 EE feet... heel/toe = face in steering wheel... lol its not quite that bad but it guess precarious if i'm wearing shoes with a bit of a heel on them (boots etc) compared to some skateshoes. I hear what your sayin tho man totally... learning the true technique will always be better. do you know of somewhere on line that gives GOOD pointers on doubleclutch and heel-toe?

03-31-2010, 05:16 PM	#6 (permalink)
bludragon Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 178 iTrader: 0 / 0%	First, don't try to actually use your heel. Use the ball of your foot on the brake, and the outside of your foot on the throttle. Second, shoes matter, don't expect to be able to easily switch between skateshoes and cowboy boots! Third, the only car I know of that has this for a manual transmission is the 370z. I expect that has a bunch of extra sensors in the gearbox to figure out what gear you're aiming for and so would not get my hopes up for the flashpro to simply enable this. The Evo and GTI auto's will take care of this which is maybe where the confusion comes from. Finally, when you perfect it yourself, it is very satisfying, but be careful! Don't blame anyone but yourself if you accelerate into a lamp post instead of slowing down for a corner :-)

03-31-2010, 05:24 PM	#8 (permalink)
wowwitsgau Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Irvine/Walnut Age: 20 Posts: 899 iTrader: 4 / 100%	First of all, this technology is called synchro rev match, and it's optional in the nissan 370z, NOT the evo or GTR. Secondly, you should learn how to at least rev match, if not heel toe correctly on your own. Otherwise, whats the point of buying a manual car?

03-31-2010, 05:28 PM	#9 (permalink)
grmachine Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 893 Steve iTrader: 0 / 0%	Sorry OP... didn't mean to turn this into a hatin' session. LOL

04-01-2010, 02:21 AM	#10 (permalink)
Ryan33 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Vancouver, BC Age: 20 Posts: 454 Director of Secret Service iTrader: 0 / 0%	That would be kinda cool to have a perfect down shift rev match everytime. But then again rev matching and heel-toeing is all part of the fun of a manual right. Im sure you can get the heel-toe down although i had some problems at the beginning and i have small feet. Im pretty sure there's no need to double clutch in our cars

04-12-2010, 01:45 PM	#13 (permalink)
Firestrife Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Gainesville, FL Posts: 5,536 Keenan iTrader: 20 / 100%	Yad yad not double clutching, double clutching what matters is that, no the ECU cannot perform this as it does not have the proper sensors and capability installed. Evo's and GTi's do this only in their Double Clutch/DSG style transmissions, but then again they are more of automatic cars than manuals. The only real stickshift manual that is capable of rev matching on the downshift is the 370z.

04-12-2010, 02:15 PM	#14 (permalink)
WhiteFrog Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Sac and the bay Posts: 959 iTrader: 0 / 0%	Kinda being a party pooper here, but I don't think it would be a good idea for them, just on the basis of liability alone. Haven't heard any issues with the synchro-match feature the 370z has, but if you are giving the ECU the ability to rev your engine for you, the code better be done right or you could end up in a tree. I think the capability to implement this is there though.. It's already drive by wire and what additional sensors do you think you would need? You can figure out what gear you're in just from the speed you're traveling and the rpm.

04-12-2010, 02:29 PM	#15 (permalink)
Firestrife Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Gainesville, FL Posts: 5,536 Keenan iTrader: 20 / 100%	Thing is the 370z has sensors where the shifter is to tell what gear your in and when downshifting what gear your going to try to get into. The problem is if your gonna go do one gear down that would probably be adequate for the ECU to handle. However if yoru gonna go from like 6th to 3rd or 5th to 2nd or 3rd. The ECU doesn't know what your trying to get into.

04-16-2010, 03:13 PM	#18 (permalink)
TinoCivicSi Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Surrey, BC Age: 27 Posts: 927 Austin iTrader: 3 / 100%	Kool! Thanks guys I appreciate it... I'm going to lock this down just incase something gets taken wrong and an arguement breaks out... I've just gotta work on my heal/toe

04-16-2010, 03:16 PM	#19 (permalink)
TinoCivicSi Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Surrey, BC Age: 27 Posts: 927 Austin iTrader: 3 / 100%	Apparently I'm not locking it I'll get a Mod to, lol I thought OP's could lock their own threads... I can't find it anywhere.