Ultimate World War II fighter discussion

[NitrousG35]

Because of all the interest in World War II planes that came up in my cowl induction thread, I got the greenlight from Webby to start a thread about World War II fighters here in the Garage.

Yes, I know they are not cars, but there is a connection, believe it or not. Much of the technology employed on performance cars over the last 50 years has been as a result of fighter technology from the period of 1939-1945.

To get started, I will nominate my all time favorite fighter-the P51 Mustang, as the ultimate fighter of World War II.

The Mustang came about as a result of the British wanting American fighters during their desperate fight in 1940-1941. The British wanted to buy Curtiss P40 Warhawks. Instead, North American Aviation offered to design and build a prototype aircraft that would be better than the P40 in less time than it would take to set up a production line for the Warhawk.

North American took NACA research and created a stunningly beautiful airplane utilizing the latest research on laminar flow in the wings. Another technology that was used was in the belly scoop that fed air to the radiator. This scoop used the heated air from the radiator as a form of jet thrust.

At first, the Mustang used an Allison V-1710 V12 liquid cooled motor. Unfortunately, the performance at altitude left a lot to be desired although the Mustang performed admirably at low levels.

The British, in true hot rodding fashion, took a Rolls Royce Merlin V-1650 V12 motor and fit it to the Mustang frame. The result was a plane that was incredibly fast with a range far beyond any other fighter of the era.

The Mustang was quickly put into service with its Merlin powerplant. Its coming was not too soon as American bombers were being shot down left and right by the Luftwaffe. German pilots would wait just outside of the range of P47 Thunderbolt and P38 Lightning pilots, waiting to pounce on American bomber formations.

The Mustang caused an immediate uproar when it was able to escort bomber formations all the way deep into Germany and back. Ultimately, the Mustang turned the tide of the air war in Europe. The Mustang ruled the day shooting down countless Me 109's and FW 190's.

The reason I nominate the P51 D Mustang as the greatest fighter of the era is because of its incredible speed, rate of climb, dive speed, turning ability and most of all, its stellar range and endurance. The Mustang also served towards the end of the war in the Pacific theater and escorted B29 formations to Japan and back to homebase.

The Mustang continued service in Korea and even served in Viet Nam with Cavalier conversions done to the airframe. Its length of service is beyond any other propeller driven fighter ever.

One note of interest is the fact that the Ford Mustang was named after the P51 Mustang. Ford knew of the fame of the P51 and wished to capitalize on the name to promote its new hot car in 1964. Also, Dodge gave credit to the P51 for the hoodscoop used on its Challenger T/A in 1970.

I would like others to share their favorite planes of the era as there are many fine planes that were produced. Post up your thoughts and pictures as well.

[habitat]

Holy crap... that F22 raptor is much much much bigger then that ... Spitfire?
It's like putting a LS460L next to a smart car... LOL

[GoHuskies]

Perhaps you can answer a question Nit?

I've heard (from war buffs) that in WWII the US military was a joke and our planes were no match for any other European or Japanese power. According to these select 21-23 year old (experts) Germany and Japan had the best planes just bad commanders. The US never had any good aircraft except for something with a P-Lightning? and a Mustang?

Are they full of biases crap or did we really just win WWII of our greater industrial capacity to win by attrition?

[NitrousG35]

Originally Posted by GoHuskies

Perhaps you can answer a question Nit?

I've heard (from war buffs) that in WWII the US military was a joke and our planes were no match for any other European or Japanese power. According to these select 21-23 year old (experts) Germany and Japan had the best planes just bad commanders. The US never had any good aircraft except for something with a P-Lightning? and a Mustang?

Are they full of biases crap or did we really just win WWII of our greater industrial capacity to win by attrition?

I would say so. If you look at the combat record of American pilots vs. both the Germans and the Japanese, we reamed they royally. Besides the Mustang and Lightning, there were the P47 Thunderbolt and F6F Hellcat and F4U Corsair , they all were highly feared and respected by their respective opponents.

Kill ratios:

P51 Mustang 19:1 [Overall]
P47 Thunderbolt 8:1 [Overall]
P38 Lightning 11:1 [Pacific]
F6F Hellcat 19:1 [Pacific]
F4U Corsair 11:1 [Pacific]

[NitrousG35]

Originally Posted by habitat

Holy crap... that F22 raptor is much much much bigger then that ... Spitfire?
It's like putting a LS460L next to a smart car... LOL

Wow. I started a thread and nominated the P51D Mustang as the all time best fighter of WWII and even supplied pictures and you call it a Spitfire?

Joking aside, you are right about the size. The Mustang looks positively tiny when compared to the F22. I like your analogy of a Smart vs. an LS460L.

[illusionstwice]

holy crap ...8thcivic hits the air! I know its not a WWII plane, but I figured I could say my favorite plane is the f117 stealth.


Waiting on DobieJoe to comment on this thread. He's a pilot in the USAF

[gx4th]

Originally Posted by GoHuskies

Perhaps you can answer a question Nit?

I've heard (from war buffs) that in WWII the US military was a joke and our planes were no match for any other European or Japanese power. According to these select 21-23 year old (experts) Germany and Japan had the best planes just bad commanders. The US never had any good aircraft except for something with a P-Lightning? and a Mustang?

Are they full of biases crap or did we really just win WWII of our greater industrial capacity to win by attrition?

As far as the Japanese are concerned, I thought it was our planes that were lacking at the start of the war. Then the US built superior aircraft as the war went on, so the zero became outclassed.

The zero was among the most maneuverable planes up until Japan surrendered, but the US built Mustangs and Corsairs that could out dive it and had more top speed. So essentially, the US planes could dive + attack, climb up again, dive + attack, repeat.

Then again, college history classes were so long ago so take that with a grain of salt

[djphoenix18]

To the OP, thanks for posting this thread up... Im a HUUUGE fan of WW2 aircraft as well as aircraft in general... Here in Houston (well Galveston) actually there was a huge airshow and i took hundreds of awesome pictures! Ill post some of my best ones here...

Heres and F-15 breaking the soundbarrier...



Heres an P-47 and P-38, 2 awesome aircraft, i was lucky to catch these two...




Heres one i wasnt expecting to see... A Mohawk!!




By the way if you all are interested in seeing some of my pics that i took of all kinds of aircraft, check my photo page out...

Flickr: pablolopez26's Photostream

[aki]

As for high kill ratio of Mustangs:

That doesn't necessarily establish that Mustangs were better than the Luftwaffe of Japanese offerings. Two things:

1) Luftwaffe: Germany dragged its foot in getting its better fighters ramped up for production. The FW-190A could've been put to production earlier, but they kept trying to make it a bomber. Same goes with the Me-262. Instead of the FW190 Dora, they insisted on using the Bf-109K, which I always thought to be a mediocre fighter.
2) F6F Hellcat: By the end of the war it wasn't the best fighter by any means, but then again it didn't need to be. Japan was still producing the A6M5 en masse, a fighter woefully outmatched by the F6F. In addition, F6F went against Kamikaze planes. Japan in its desperation used slow trainer planes, outdated planes, and even wooden planes (Tsurugi) to plow into US ships. They didn't call the battle at the Marianas islands a "Turkey shoot" for nothing.

Japanese fighters that emerged at the end of the war didn't appear in large enough numbers. And most of the veteran pilots by then were killed--US had a larger pool of pilots so they could rotate them out, whereas Japanese pilots pretty much had to slog through sortie after sortie. If you compare aces, US aces scored the least kills.

Dick Bong, the highest US ace, scored 40 kills. By comparison, Iwamoto Tetsuo scored 100 kills. To top it off, Iwamoto did it in the Zero, which by the end of the war was getting badly outclassesed by the F6F and F4U. Most of the kills in a Zero are done by their piddly 7.92mm machine gun.

There were a lot of great Japanese fighters, that had they been produced in larger numbers would've given US pilots series trouble. The Ki-100 Tony (a Ki-61 swapped with a 2000hp Kinsei engine), the Ki-84 Hayate and the N1K1 Kawanishi Shidenkai would give US pilots a heck of a run for their money. Like I mentioned in the other thread, there were a lot of production troubles and part shortages, and the fuel used was of horrible quality, so the planes themselves never saw their true potential.

If Ki-84 fought on equal footing with the P51, I think it'd be evenly matched. Ki-84 had better maneuverability, but could also zoom & boom with its good armament (2x 12.7mm guns and 2x 20mm cannons), making it more verstatile in dogfights.

N1K1 Shiden (you can tell it's not the Shidenkai by its wing structure)


Ki-84

[aki]

On another note, much of the downfall of Japanese air superiority was due to military brass NOT wanting to upgrade the Zero (stupid stupid stupid). Whereas the Brits kept upgrading the Spitfire (to like Mark XVII or something), Japanese brass deemed it unnecessary to upgrade the Zero. Retarded. Engineers suggested putting a 2000HP Kinsei engine into the Zero, which would've been like a 50% increase in power... but the higher ups said no, saying that'd make the Zero "too powerful."

So while F6Fs were starting to dominate around 1943-44, Japanese brass kept putting closing their eyes to the reality that the Zero was no longer dominant. They only started putting bigger engines in the Zero right before the war ended (A6M8 Zero), but by then it was too late. The downfall of the Zero was in large part due to the arrogance of the brass thinking the Zero didn't need to be changed.

As for best interceptor of the war, I think that badge goes to the Ta-152, the final evolution of the FW-190. They were used as protectors of Me-262s when the 262s were taking off (the Me-262 was very vulnerable at take-off). Allied pilots would turn tail and run when seeing these planes hovering over an airfield. If you want automotive parallels, consider this: the Ta-152 was one of the first airplanes to use nitrous oxide boost. NAAAAWS! Haha. Interesting to think it had ties back to planes in the 40s.

[NitrousG35]

djphoenix18, great pics. I love the F18 breaking the sound barrier. As for the Thunderbolt, I have personally cleaned and polished that particular one you showed. I used to volunteer for Planes of Fame East Museum in Eden Prairie, Minnesota.

I got to be around many different warbirds. Once they had a get together of Thunderbolts and 6 showed up, including one razorback. The sound of 6 Pratt and Whitney R2800's flying by was incredible.

[NitrousG35]

Originally Posted by aki

On another note, much of the downfall of Japanese air superiority was due to military brass NOT wanting to upgrade the Zero (stupid stupid stupid). Whereas the Brits kept upgrading the Spitfire (to like Mark XVII or something), Japanese brass deemed it unnecessary to upgrade the Zero. Retarded. Engineers suggested putting a 2000HP Kinsei engine into the Zero, which would've been like a 50% increase in power... but the higher ups said no, saying that'd make the Zero "too powerful."

So while F6Fs were starting to dominate around 1943-44, Japanese brass kept putting closing their eyes to the reality that the Zero was no longer dominant. They only started putting bigger engines in the Zero right before the war ended (A6M8 Zero), but by then it was too late. The downfall of the Zero was in large part due to the arrogance of the brass thinking the Zero didn't need to be changed.

As for best interceptor of the war, I think that badge goes to the Ta-152, the final evolution of the FW-190. They were used as protectors of Me-262s when the 262s were taking off (the Me-262 was very vulnerable at take-off). Allied pilots would turn tail and run when seeing these planes hovering over an airfield. If you want automotive parallels, consider this: the Ta-152 was one of the first airplanes to use nitrous oxide boost. NAAAAWS! Haha. Interesting to think it had ties back to planes in the 40s.

Yeah, I agree that the Ta-152 was an incredible plane, but I don't think it would have been superior to either the P51H or the Spitfire Mk 22. At the end of the war, all the major combatants were turning out some incredible piston engined fighters. Germany, Japan, the US, England and Russia all had super high perfomance fighters that came out a liitle too late to see much action in the war.

[djphoenix18]

Actually i think that was an F-18... My bad... LOL

For the sake of overall air superiority during WW2 i would have to go with the P-51 Mustang...

The one plane that i really like though is the ME-262 Swallow... Now thats a nice looking plane!

[aki]

Originally Posted by NitrousG35

Yeah, I agree that the Ta-152 was an incredible plane, but I don't think it would have been superior to either the P51H or the Spitfire Mk 22. At the end of the war, all the major combatants were turning out some incredible piston engined fighters. Germany, Japan, the US, England and Russia all had super high perfomance fighters that came out a liitle too late to see much action in the war.

I think the P51H is superior to the Ta-152 as a high-speed interceptor, but I don't consider the P51H as being part of the war since AFAIK it never actually saw combat, whereas the Ta-152 actually did (albiet very little). As far as overall performance F8F Bearcat imo is the best.

Breaking down into theaters the best fighter in terms of wartime effectiveness (and not performance) I think it's:

European: P51 Mustang--they were a God-send for the B17s and B24s that escorted them. Prior to that US fighters didn't have the range to escort bombing runs, and many a bomber was downed. The great range of P51 made it an awesome escort.

Pacific: F6F Hellcat--sure the P51 was invaluable in its B29 escorts from Iwo Jima/Saipan to Tokyo, but most of the key conflicts involved carrier battles. And to that end it was the F6F that was pivotal. Good range, maneuverability, speed--top it off it was easy to fly, so green pilots had a surviving chance when faced against veteran pilots in Rabaul. The F4U by contrast was unforgiving to fly (hence the term Ensign Eliminator), and was a clumsy adaptation into carrier-based duty... snap stalls made them a handful in hands of inexperienced pilots. I think F6Fs are ugly as sin though

As far as aesthetics, I've always preferred radial engines over inline. Another plane I think is cool is the Lavochkin La-7:



One of the most graceful planes (and an exception to my disdain for inline engines) is the late-war Spitfire w/ bubble canopy. So nice.

[habitat]

Originally Posted by NitrousG35

Wow. I started a thread and nominated the P51D Mustang as the all time best fighter of WWII and even supplied pictures and you call it a Spitfire?

Joking aside, you are right about the size. The Mustang looks positively tiny when compared to the F22. I like your analogy of a Smart vs. an LS460L.

I am by no means a WWII aircraft buff, I admit... I was only staring at the pretty pictures and did not read a word you said! Spitfire was a wild guess.

[NitrousG35]

Originally Posted by aki

I think the P51H is superior to the Ta-152 as a high-speed interceptor, but I don't consider the P51H as being part of the war since AFAIK it never actually saw combat, whereas the Ta-152 actually did (albiet very little). As far as overall performance F8F Bearcat imo is the best.

Breaking down into theaters the best fighter in terms of wartime effectiveness (and not performance) I think it's:

European: P51 Mustang--they were a God-send for the B17s and B24s that escorted them. Prior to that US fighters didn't have the range to escort bombing runs, and many a bomber was downed. The great range of P51 made it an awesome escort.

Pacific: F6F Hellcat--sure the P51 was invaluable in its B29 escorts from Iwo Jima/Saipan to Tokyo, but most of the key conflicts involved carrier battles. And to that end it was the F6F that was pivotal. Good range, maneuverability, speed--top it off it was easy to fly, so green pilots had a surviving chance when faced against veteran pilots in Rabaul. The F4U by contrast was unforgiving to fly (hence the term Ensign Eliminator), and was a clumsy adaptation into carrier-based duty... snap stalls made them a handful in hands of inexperienced pilots. I think F6Fs are ugly as sin though

As far as aesthetics, I've always preferred radial engines over inline. Another plane I think is cool is the Lavochkin La-7:

Aki, you make great points all. You may be right that had the Bearcat be deployed before the end of the war, it may have been the greatest all around dogfighter of them all. Grumman took FockeWulf design and technology from the FW 190 D model and used it in the Bearcat's design. That short fuselage and stubby wings, while making it a beast on takeoff, would have made for an insane turning and rolling aircraft not to mention the incredible rate of climb and dive speed.

As for the F6F Hellcat, it never got the press that the more glamorous Corsair got. Truth be told, it was the Hellcat that was responsible for devastating the Japanese Naval and Army Air Forces. It was a rugged plane that could stay with a Zero and have great firepower. It also was perfectly suited for carrier duty, certainly much better than the Corsair.

As for the Corsair, the bent wing of course was because of the huge prop being used on the R2800. I think you would agree that the F2G1 and F2G2 Super Corsair variants with the R4360 Wasp motor would have certainly been a formidable aircraft. Pappy Boyington loved his Corsair as did many other top American aces.

Regarding the Russian fighters, they never received the attention that Western fighters got. I read accounts where Yak 9's could eat a Mustang alive in the air. Yak, Mig and Lavochkin are produced fantastic fighters. I personally have been a fan of the Yak 9 for years. The Mig 3 was not too shabby either.

Remember, my reasons for the Mustang have to do with combat service, kill ratio, length of service and flight qualities. The Military Channel voted the P51 Mustang as history's all time greatest fighter, beating out the Mig 15, F4 Phantom and many other fine airplanes. Plus, no one can deny that the Rolls Royce Merlin is the sweetest sounding motor ever produced. I have a CD of a Mustang at start up, take off, in flight, fly-bys and the sound is to die for. Still puts a smile on my face every time I listen to it.

[razasasin]

Pretty cool thread! I used to be big into aircraft when I was young - my gramps (RIP) was a navigator on a B-17 over Germany in WWII - if you've seen Memphis Belle, it was basically his stroy - his plane was one of the first to complete their missions. Their turret gunner kept a diary and it was published for their squad - it's is a nerve racking read for a diary - they actually landed with holes in the wings, 1 engine ,etcc...

Anyways props on a great thread - my favorite wwII fighter;

P51!

[NitrousG35]

Originally Posted by razasasin

Pretty cool thread! I used to be big into aircraft when I was young - my gramps (RIP) was a navigator on a B-17 over Germany in WWII - if you've seen Memphis Belle, it was basically his stroy - his plane was one of the first to complete their missions. Their turret gunner kept a diary and it was published for their squad - it's is a nerve racking read for a diary - they actually landed with holes in the wings, 1 engine ,etcc...

Anyways props on a great thread - my favorite wwII fighter;

P51!

Wow, I know the Memphis Belle really well. I have Robert K. Morgan's autograph. The Belle was the first bomber to complete 25 missions, which was a miracle at the time. There is a 1944 documentary as well as the later movie that show the last mission it flew on. What a fantastic plane and crew. God bless your grandfather for serving those grueling 25 missions over Nazi Germany.

[Sirbelch]

oops. working on it.

[Sirbelch]

Originally Posted by NitrousG35

Plus, no one can deny that the Rolls Royce Merlin is the sweetest sounding motor ever produced.

Boooooooooo that man!!!!!! Booooooo Him.

Its ok. I'm assuming you have never been to the Reno Air Races. Other wise you would know better.

Nothing sound better than this plane right here. Nothing. Its an F8F with an R3350 and a 3 blade prop from an EP-3. I know its not a WWII figheter per say, but still sounds waaaaaaaaaaayyyyyy better than those stupid 12 cylinders when coming around the 9th pylon in a full bank at 497mph.