Civic Si [Sedan] vs. ...

[Terrain.org]

The other day I posted some comments in the Civic vs. Mazda3 thread about my recent test drives of the 3 in comparison to the Civic, after driving both the LX AT and a habanero red Si. Since I've got so much time to burn until "my" Si sedan arrives---and yet still have that decided new car fever---I thought I'd post some very short reviews and quips about new cars I'll drive until the Si arrives. I plan to drive a different sports sedan every one or two weeks.

If this turns out to be lame (or has already started that way), let me know and I'll stop. Until then, though, let's start with the Lexus IS 250, which I drove this morning.



The IS 250 6-speed MT sports a 2.5-liter V6 that pumps out 204 HP and 185 lb-ft of torque. Its MSRP, with the optional-but-not-available-without-them 18" alloy wheels/performance tires, is $31,494.

But as Edmunds.com and other review sites have pointed out, all-out performance is not the IS 250's forte. Rather, it's about an aggressive stance wrapped around luxury, comfort, and a sporty elegance. There, it doesn't disappoint.

What was disappointing, though, was that the local Lexus dealer didn't have a 6-speed MT for me to drive; only the 6-speed sequential-shift automatic. Turns out that, as of this morning, there's only one MT available in the entire Southwestern U.S. So I drove the AT on-hand, which goes for $31,750 plus options.

Walking around the Lexus, I find its shape very attractive: an arrowy front, slightly bulging fenders, large wheels, and sleek but short windows. Much better than the IS 300 it has replaced. Inside, the car is as finely crafted as any I've ever been in, with very comfortable leather seats (standard), an awesome radiant-dialed instrument cluster, and a superb sound system. My tester had the nav system, as well, but I didn't pay attention to that.

Unfortunately, I found that, no matter how I adjusted the 8-way driver's seat, it wouldn't go quite low enough. My hair brushed against the roof, whether the sunroof shade was open or not. Additionally, the cockpit---and that's really what it feels like---is tight. That's not bad for the driver, but renders the backseats, even though they're accessible by their own doors, mostly useless except for small children. This four-door is really a coupe masquerading as a sedan. And a coupe and convertible are rumored to be on the horizon.

But onto the drive. What Edmunds.com and others point out is true: the car is so quiet and comfortable, and the shifting on the sequential AT so seamless, that you're removed from the road itself. That's a knock if, like me, you're interested in a sports sedan where you feel the road and hear the engine. That's part of the fun. Too bad I couldn't drive the 6-speed to see if that holds as true.

Some other points worth mentioning: the back seat doesn't fold down---there's only a pass-through for a skibag; visibility is not great but not too bad, bolstered by large side mirrors; the leather is exquisite; the sunroof has a cool dial that makes it really user-friendly to operate; the automatic has + and - shift paddles on the wheel, though (sadly) I didn't have the opportunity to use them. No doubt that makes the AT driving a bit more fun.



My overall impression is that this is truly a well-crafted machine, but one that's too tight on its interior for a guy who's 6'5", and one also that doesn't engage the driver enough. Still, it's the best exterior and perhaps interior design at this price I've seen for a four-door.

While I had numbers run to see if I could score a great lease deal (the dealership, which is super professional and friendly, offered me $1,500 off MSRP even though I'd have to order one), the price was a fair bit more than I wanted. And at $29,500 plus tax, etc., I'd have to lease rather than buy. For the Si sedan, I plan to purchase/finance.

On Monday I'll drive a 325i, and then next week---time permitting---an Acura TSX, and then an Audi A4, and then a Subaru WRX, and then.... After all, there's still lots of time between now and the fall release of the Civic Si sedan!

[mmm def]

im too tired from a long ass day and a few too many glasses of wine to add to this post, but those sideview mirrors are way too freaking big!

[2000civic]

my dad has a is 250 with the six speed transsmission. it is pretty nice, it has a good pick up. i have heard that the six speed is pretty rare. my dad picked up one in one night. no searching around for a six speed. i guess it was just luck.

[Terrain.org]

After emailing the Internet manager of the local BMW dealership, I headed over to test drive a BMW 6-speed MT with the sport package (MSRP of $33,348). My preference for this particular package is alpine white with the biege leatherette.

When I entered the dealership I was greeted by an older fellow who, when I asked for the Internet manager named Jenni, directed me to a hallway in the back. I walked back and thought I was entering an administrative area. Jenni seemed surprised to see me back there (or anywhere?), was---um, well, gosh---a sort of goddess---and didn't want to shake my hand because she just broke a nail. But she was otherwise a nice enough lass, even if it was, well, hard for my eyes not to wander.

But back to the vehicle at hand. She informed me, after I reminded her of my interest, that she wasn't sure if there were any MTs on the lot. A quick check revealed that in fact there weren't. What is it with these luxury car dealers? Do people really not want manual transmission luxury sports sedans? That's just plain meekness.

So we instead drove an automatic 325i with the sport package and premium package, listing for over $38K. Like the MT, the AT comes as a 6-speed, though it's a Steptronic transmission with Adaptive Transmission Control. It's linked to a 3.0-liter dual overhead cam, 24-valve inline six cylinder with 215 hp and 185 ft-lb torque.



Sitting in the BMW 325i, I realized it is a bit roomier than the last time I sat in one (a 2005 model), and Jenni informed me it's now as large as the late-model 5 series. The seats are very comfortable and, unlike the Lexus IS 250, move low enough so that there's plenty of headroom for this tall drink of water.

The instrumentation is good---not great like the Lexus nor unique like the Civic Si---and includes a real-time MPG analog gauge. The sunroof is standard, though nothing otherwise spectacular. The center armrest is nice and wide, and there's definitely more room all around in the 325i than the IS 250. It's not as cool-looking inside (I'm not a fan of the walnut trim) or outside, but it works and still sings of Old World craftsmanship and charm.



The first thing I noticed in driving the BMW was that the shifting of the automatic---in pure auto mode---is not nearly as smooth as I would have thought. It seems almost to lag, with a slight delay from standstill, and shifting both up and down is too noticeable. In the IS 250, the transmission is absolutely seamless. Like the Lexus, though, the BMW is very quiet and really smooth. It holds corners well---Jenni found me a fun patch of curvey road---and is still plenty of fun to drive. But the 215-hp inline 6 with its rear-wheel drive doesn't feel like more than 150 hp. I didn't gun it or anything, but it feels surprisingly passive.

A few other items of note: The cupholders are in the dash, and are odd, at best; the headlights are completely cool: halogens, though Xenon Adaptive Headlights are also available for a mere $800; the 17x.8.0 front/17x18.5 rear double-spoke wheels on the sports package are pretty sweet---but then all of the BMW wheels looks great, in my opinion.



In the end, though, like the Lexus the BMW isn't nearly as spirited as the Si, and of course this particular model is $18K more. Why, that's enough for an Si and a little sister LX! Undoubtedly the 6-speed MT would have made a huge difference, as all the mags rave about that being the best clutch/shifter combo available. Still, when the lease rates came back to me I had to let Jenni know I'd pass.

Next, I'll drive the TSX (this Friday, I think), and there's definitely a 6-speed MT available (though it has Navi). My Si sales rep will be with me on that drive. Another report coming then....

[2RotorMotor]

All bmw auto trannys suck...(I dunno about the 6-7 series) but a bmw was meant to be mt. Its a big big difference. The IS is OK, not all that great. the is300's had more standard features.. All came with adaptive hid's and 6 disc indash changer and sunroof. Although the power sucked and the mpg was even worse...

[Terrain.org]

Before I ever thought of looking at the Civic---knowing that I like to take trips down to Mexico every now and then that invariably require a bit more ground clearance---I was seriously considering the Toyota FJ Cruiser. But that's impractical both because it doesn't have four true doors, and because it gets standard SUV gas mileage; i.e., crappy. So then I settled on the Subaru Outback, and specifically the XT Limited. After finding out about the Civic Si sedan, I dropped that idea, but now that I'm driving all these different vehicles, and I continue to be antsy as I wait, I thought another drive necessary.

The Subaru Outback XT Limited has a lofty MSRP of $31,620, including destination and handling. That's more than both the BMW 325i and the Lexus IS 250. On the other hand, it comes with quite a bit more, as well: 250-hp 2.5-liter DOHC intercooled, turbo boxer engine; 250 lb-ft of torque at 3,600 rpm; Symmetrical All-Wheel Drive; 4-wheel independent heavy-duty raised suspension. This particular Outback, in fact, has 8.7" of ground clearance, which is nearly 2 inches more, for example, than the Jeep Liberty. With these "off-road" features and the guttoral turbo, however, comes an offset: gas mileage is rated at 19/26, and the turbo required premium fuel. Reviews from Edmunds.com and other sites give it an average of about 21 mpg, though I've seen it as low as 15 mpg.



I've always been attracted to the quirky Outback design, and with the redesign in 2005, Subaru has definitely taken it up a notch. The lower cladding and large fog lamps have been made a bit more subtle, turn signals integrated into the side view mirrors have been added, and the hood and windshield have been given more of a rake. The functional turbo scoop on the hood, along with the raised suspension, definitely given this wagon an aggressive stance.

On the interior, there are two color choices: taupe (tan) or black. In the desert, since the Limited package comes with leather, there's really only one choice in my opinion: taupe. In the Civic, I don't like the ivory/tan interior. In the Outback, however, I think it works very well. Additionally, the instrument panel---despite the XT Limited's electroluminescent cluster (I'd prefer the silver-ringed cluster of all other Outback wagon models)---and center stack are every bit as well laid out and luxury-feeling as that of the BMW or IS 250. Personally, I like the Outback's layout better than both, though I'm still very wooed by the IS 250's instrument cluster.



I drove an Atlantic Blue Pearl Outback XT Limited with 5-speed. It's one I've driven before, and has been on the lot a long time (at least three months, which seems like a long time to me...). It has the taupe interior. I've driven both the Outback i (with its 175 hp) and the XT, and the turbo absolutely blows the i away. The i feels sluggish from a start into 1st and 2nd gear, but there's none of that in the XT, even before the turbo kicks in. There's not much turbo lag early on, surprisingly.

Perhaps my favorite feature of all, though, is the panoramic moonroof of the Limited, which spans the front and well into the back. This is a moonroof made for passengers in all seats, and one my kids would really dig, as does their dad.

The XT drives in a spirited way. Though it has 250 hp it's not as spirited as the Si, but does deliver power sooner. With the AWD system, it corners exceptionally well, though not as tight as a sportscar, obviously, because of its sheer size. It is a wagon, after all. The 5-speed shifts well, and a short-throw shifter (used in the WRX STI) is also available, for $280 plus installation (which I imagine would be a lot).

A few other thoughts: Subaru is clearly trying to go upscale---not just in its price (I mean, the MSRP is $10K higher than an Si coupe! though there's always at least a $1,500 rebate, it seems) but in its fit and finish, which is excellent. Reliability is similarly impressive, I hear. Two options/accessories that nearly every other 2006 vehicle has but the Subaru doesn't are significant: steering wheel controls for audio and cruise (cruise is on an awkardly placed bar behind the wheel) and a 6th gear, especially for the MT, as it revs at over 3,500 RPM at 75 mph. I wouldn't be surprised if the 2007, which may included a mid-model makeover, includes those. Or at least, it should.

So needless to say, I am very tempted by the XT Limited, even if blue isn't my first choice of color. If the dealership---which I expect to provide pricing today or tomorrow---can make me a deal that takes, say, $5,000 off MSRP, then I might be swayed to get it. (Yes, it's true: this wait for the Si sedan is killing me!). But that's not likely, so... today I'll drive an Acura TSX!

[CHRIS]

very nice write ups, keep em coming, btw i love the lexus is250. im also 6'5" so i hear ya on any discomfort, i actually bought the lx instead of the ex cause of the 2" extra headroom its hard being so tall!

[2RotorMotor]

Originally Posted by CHRIS

very nice write ups, keep em coming, btw i love the lexus is250. im also 6'5" so i hear ya on any discomfort, i actually bought the lx instead of the ex cause of the 2" extra headroom its hard being so tall!

You do know he doesn't write these himself...

[CHRIS]

Originally Posted by 2RotorMotor

You do know he doesn't write these himself...

how would i know that? u devious bastards

[2RotorMotor]

Originally Posted by CHRIS

how would i know that? u devious bastards

Reviews from Edmunds.com and other sites give it an average of about 21 mpg, though I've seen it as low as 15 mpg.

How would he know that, unless he's had the car for a period of time...

[SiGTi]

i have a 2006 BMW 330i


it blows away all those cars, and the lexus is a joke

[Terrain.org]

Originally Posted by 2RotorMotor

Reviews from Edmunds.com and other sites give it an average of about 21 mpg, though I've seen it as low as 15 mpg.

How would he know that, unless he's had the car for a period of time...

WTF? I do write these myself. I'm, um, a writer (at least, on the side). A good writer does some research, so I went and read the reviews on Edmunds.com and another site that exclusively tested the XT Limited, which in general discusses the 21 mpg (well, 20.4 to be specific) and saw someone post about only getting 15 mpg on Edmunds.com consumer reviews.

TSX overview coming shortly (probably this weekend), and some sh*tty news to share about my dealer's change of tune, but more on that elsewhere....

[mmm def]

I had an 05 Legacy GT Limited which I sold for my Si. I'll type up a comparison if you'd like.

[2RotorMotor]

Hol up.... you traded an 05 legacy GT??? Damn I knew I forgot to test drive that car... ****... IM in love with that car... If I would've remembered to go check out that car, I would've most likely and bought it...

[Terrain.org]

Originally Posted by mmm def

I had an 05 Legacy GT Limited which I sold for my Si. I'll type up a comparison if you'd like.

Yeah, just some bullet points perhaps about why you traded in: what you didn't like, comparison, etc.

[Stewthebassman]

Okay, people....my first post here. I traded a 2004 BMW 325i for 2005 Subaru Leg GT Ltd. After 12k kms, I was out of it. The seat was as cramped as the IS250 seat. I'm only 6'1" too! There is NO telescoping wheel.....jeez, even a Mazda and a Honda have that!!! The power was impressive, and the AT thumbshifters on the steering wheel were very cool and functional. The car needed to be muscled thru turns, nowhere near as tight and light as the Bimmer.
After that I got a 2006 BMW 325xi. Terrain, once the car gets used to your driving, it rocks. I have the Steptronic, and while it may not shift as well as the Lexus (which I didn't actually drive), it's very smooth (downshifts are a blast too), and when you open up the throttle, the engine changes character at 4200 rpm, and it screams its way to 6500...it's a GAS!!!! I'll be doing 140km/h in 4th at 5000rpm....and it begs for more! I have the AWD, which is simply amazing in winter. My '04 Bimmer was MT, and I found the clutch and the shifter WAY too long. Nowhere near as tight as a the new Civic nor even the Mazda 3. I wish I could put a Civic shifter and clutch in a Bimmer!!! Even the new BMW shifting is long-ish and the clutch too long.

Great reviews!! Great thread! Fun board!

Go 8thcivic.com!

[Terrain.org]

Thanks Stew (if I may abbreviate). I remember the clutch being way long (or deep, I guess) on the 2004 BMW I test drove, too. I was surprised after reading all of the praise; but so it goes.

[mmm def]

2005 Subaru Legacy GT 5sp

Likes:
* Reliability-I had 35k on it when I sold it, 0 problems. The car was stg2 too, more on that.
*Stealth factor-nobody ever looked at it, but it was very fast.
*Tranny was nice-I had the STI short shift kit, very precise but smooth.
*Sound-hard to beat a boxer engine with a full exhaust (Catless UP/DP, CB)
*Great value-heated power lthr, moonroof, 6 ch in dash, auto climate, etc.

Stage 2 is pretty much a chip (Accessport for the Suby guys) and a bigger downpipe. I also had a catless up-pipe, borla catback, Perrin TMIC, Cusco Rear sway. This thing was good for low 13's with a good driver. I even held back an E46 M3 75-120, it had some sac.

Dislikes:
*Clutch-I HATED IT! out of my 6 or so cars this was 100% the worst, this is 90% why I sold the car. You either would slip the clutch or stall, try starting off on a hill, this thing was a nightmare. there was no feeling of the engagement point, no feel. Yeah I could have changed it, but it was a lease (I had originally planned on buying it out, that's why I put 35k on it in the 1st yr and didn't think twice), but was going to turn it in so I stopped driving it and put it for sale, I was lucky and sold it for a decent penny.
*Brakes, eh they were ok, 12.3" F 11.3" back so they had the size but not that good of feel, I actually think it was the stock pads, garbage.
*RE92-worst tire EVER! I took these off at 8k miles and put on some Pirelli PZero Nero M+S, loved them and I might get them for my Si if I don't go SO3.
*Gas mileage was 21, so so.
*Stock suspension a little floaty.

Come to think of it, the clutch is really why I sold it, and although I don't regret selling it for my Si I do miss it. It was a beast!!! Great in the snow, decent quality interior. I had my fun though.

I love my SI, the gearbox and clutch are excellent, the handling is superb even with the stock shit all-seasons, engine sounds great. For the $ you really can't beat the car imo. I'm 100% happy.

[Stewthebassman]

Originally Posted by mmm def

2005 Subaru Legacy GT 5sp

Likes:
* Reliability-I had 35k on it when I sold it, 0 problems. The car was stg2 too, more on that.
*Stealth factor-nobody ever looked at it, but it was very fast.
*Tranny was nice-I had the STI short shift kit, very precise but smooth.
*Sound-hard to beat a boxer engine with a full exhaust (Catless UP/DP, CB)
*Great value-heated power lthr, moonroof, 6 ch in dash, auto climate, etc.

Stage 2 is pretty much a chip (Accessport for the Suby guys) and a bigger downpipe. I also had a catless up-pipe, borla catback, Perrin TMIC, Cusco Rear sway. This thing was good for low 13's with a good driver. I even held back an E46 M3 75-120, it had some sac.

Dislikes:
*Clutch-I HATED IT! out of my 6 or so cars this was 100% the worst, this is 90% why I sold the car. You either would slip the clutch or stall, try starting off on a hill, this thing was a nightmare. there was no feeling of the engagement point, no feel. Yeah I could have changed it, but it was a lease (I had originally planned on buying it out, that's why I put 35k on it in the 1st yr and didn't think twice), but was going to turn it in so I stopped driving it and put it for sale, I was lucky and sold it for a decent penny.
*Brakes, eh they were ok, 12.3" F 11.3" back so they had the size but not that good of feel, I actually think it was the stock pads, garbage.
*RE92-worst tire EVER! I took these off at 8k miles and put on some Pirelli PZero Nero M+S, loved them and I might get them for my Si if I don't go SO3.
*Gas mileage was 21, so so.
*Stock suspension a little floaty.

Come to think of it, the clutch is really why I sold it, and although I don't regret selling it for my Si I do miss it. It was a beast!!! Great in the snow, decent quality interior. I had my fun though.

I love my SI, the gearbox and clutch are excellent, the handling is superb even with the stock shit all-seasons, engine sounds great. For the $ you really can't beat the car imo. I'm 100% happy.

Looks like you went all the way with your Leg.....and still dumped it! I had heard about that clutch, a real deal-breaker. For me it was the seat. Numb right leg all the time! And the mileage was horrible, but I understand, it's a turbo etc.......

I found the brakes in the Leg were way too squishy, but once you get used to a Bimmer everything seems squishy I guess.

I assigned my lease to someone and I lost a bundle in the end, but that's the way it goes, live and learn.

[Terrain.org]

A couple years ago, when I was also in a serious round of car-looking and the Acura TSX had just come out, I was set on buying the TSX. I was initially interested in the redesigned Accord, but with that redesign came a wide center stack that hit my long legs uncomfortably, so while I could get that Accord EX at just slightly over invoice, its wide center stack and, admittedly, the mediocre power on the 4-cylinder, made me look upstream. But the TSX was new enough that at least locally the Acura dealer wasn't negotiating much.

Fast-forward two years: Now in its third year, rumor has it that the TSX will be redesigned for 2008; but that does us little good in the second quarter of 2006. The Acura TSX remains a subtly-styled 4-door, but still an attractive "entry-level" luxury sports sedan. It features a 2.4-liter, 205-hp inline 4-cylinder that attains maximum horsepower at 7,000 RPM, with 164 ft-lbs. of torque. Like the Accord---and in fact the TSX is the European version of the Honda Accord---it is front-wheel drive.

The black TSX I drove yesterday was fortunately coupled with a tight 6-speed MT, as well as a navigation system that is considered (at least by Edmunds.com) to be one of the finest DVD-based Navi units around. Since I'm not interested in Navi on this particular model, though, I mostly ignored that; though for AC controls you can use either the buttons alongside the Navi screen, or the touch screen itself. In the end, it was sort of confusing figuring out what was what, though I'm sure once you've done that a couple times it's no problem.



Like the Si, the TSX really kicks in at higher RPMs. It's a fairly spirited drive, and the shifter moves fluidly and quickly between gears, with easy clutch motion. While the transition from standstill into first gear was a slight bit hesitant (perhaps due to this particular driver not being full acquainted with this particular system), shifting between the other gears at a variety of RPMs was not only natural but engaging, as well. I also found myself nearly mesmerized by the real-time MPG indicator between the speedometer and the tach. Cornering was fun, and a couple times I had my sales rep holding the "Oh sh*t!" handle---but that could be because he just told me about Chapman Honda's lame new Civic first-come, first-served policy that drops me out of line for the Si sedan. Bastards.

Ah well, back to the review at hand: The TSX's interior is elegant, though not necessarily exciting nor unique. Everything is within reach, and except for using controls on the touch-screen (which is something I'd prefer not to do, given there's no tactile sense to it), if not a perfect fit then it's at least close. The parchment leather interior is my preference, both because it seems a little higher quality than the quartz or black (though it's the same, I'm sure) and also because here in the desert, the lighter the interior the better. I'm not sure if the perforated leather keeps the driver and passengers cooler, but it certainly looks cooler.



As with all Acura products, fit and finish is excellent. Like the BMW and Lexus, the TSX looks and feels very well-crafted. In its favor, though, the TSX without Navi is at least $2,000 less than either the 325i or IS 250, coming in at $27,890 + $615 for destination, or $28,505 total. With Navi, which runs an additional $2K, the discrepancy becomes wider, with BMW and Lexus both approaching or exceeding the mid-30s while the TSX remains right near $30,000.

A couple other notes: The interior of the TSX, from a space perspective, is definitely bigger than the IS 250 and similar to that of the 325i. I think it may have a bit more rear seat room than the BMW, though. Like the Si, the TSX requires premium fuel, with slightly lower EPA estimates for gas mileage, coming in at 22/30 for the MT. That's pretty good all things considered, and exceeds everything else I've driven (with the exception of the Si coupe) to this point.

The Acura TSX's big advantage compared to other entry-level luxury sports sedans is what you get for the price. It pretty much comes with everything, from HID headlights to leather to sunroof and much more. Even from Chapman Acura, I can drive one home for about $400 over invoice before beginning negotiations, which means (sans any extra options such as tint, rear spoiler, etc.) $26,350 before taxes, including destination. Considering the Si sedan's price will not be negotiable, that means the Acura may be only $4K to $5K more. While that's a 25 percent difference, at this range it feels like an easy differential step to take to not have to wait for the Si, and to get what is I suspect a better quality car (though not quite as fun to drive, undoubtedly). The Acura also has a 4-year warranty compared to Honda's 3-year coverage.

Despite all that, however, the TSX doesn't leave me with a real sense of excitement. Neither its interior nor exterior designs, while high-quality, move me. The driving experience is good but not great. There is something that I cannot really define that keeps the TSX lower on my list than even my own review, above, would have it seem. Go figure.