California musician sues Honda for overstating fuel economy of Civic hybrid

xcopx · 07-09-2007, 01:25 AM

http://www.mercextra.com/blogs/vindu...-civic-hybrid/

California musician sues Honda for overstating fuel economy of Civic hybrid
By Vindu Goel

Southern California musician John True has never gotten close to the fuel economy advertised by Honda for his Civic hybrid. Instead of the 49 mpg city/51 mpg highway listed on the sticker, the jazz pianist says he averaged just 32 mpg in 6,000 miles of mixed driving.

Rather than just complain about it, True has filed a class action lawsuit against Honda, reports MediaNews. (AutoblogGreen has also published an interview with True in which the Ontario, Calif., resident discusses his experience with the Civic hybrid and why he filed the suit.)

I think True faces an uphill legal battle, since Honda’s ads clearly stated that “mileage may vary.” But the discovery process could open up a lot of interesting documents about hybrids and just how hard or easy it is to achieve the stated fuel economy.

True’s suit also intensifies the already spirited debate over hybrids’ fuel economy advantages. (The last time I wrote about the topic, I got 48 comments from readers, second only to my post about the iPhone. And the version of the MediaNews story on the Mercury News Website has already generated 33 comments, some supporting and some opposing True’s position).

The official fuel-economy ratings advertised on the sticker of every new car are calculated by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, which has long used unrealistic driving patterns to test auto mileage. Starting with the 2008 model year, the EPA has modified its test patterns to reflect real-world driving by today’s drivers – reducing the listed fuel economy of every car, but especially hybrids. (The Civic hybrid drops to 40 city/45 highway under the new system.)

Hybrid fans say you can achieve or even exceed the EPA fuel economy if you change your driving patterns, including slowing your acceleration. Driving the speed limit also helps tremendously.

But skeptics say that hybrids, which run on a mix of gas and electric power, just don’t have a big enough advantage over gas-fueled cars to justify the higher price tag. (True says he paid $7,000 more for his hybrid Civic than a comparable conventional Civic.)

Consumer Reports, whose auto ratings are followed closely by millions, says that it got 37 mpg overall for the Civic hybrid during its last round of testing, compared with 28 mpg for the automatic and 31 mpg for the manual gas-fueled versions.

If a driver got CR’s mileage, it would take an awful lot of driving to make up for the difference in cost, especially since the upfront tax incentives to buy hybrids are drying up. (The cash cost excludes other hybrid benefits, such as reduced greenhouse-gas emissions, which might make people willing to pay more.)

Rather than posting a single mileage number, I wonder if the EPA or automakers could be more helpful to car buyers by giving them a range of fuel economy numbers, with the low and high ends defined by specific driving patterns. Or clearly state that actual mileage may be 20 to 30 percent less (or whatever is accurate) than the listed number based on individual driving habits.

TJ213 · 07-09-2007, 03:29 AM

So.. he's suing honda for a number that they don't decide?

e60.deluxe · 07-09-2007, 03:47 AM

people need to understand that acceleration is a huge part of feul economy. hybrids are slow. dont try to drive them as quickly as a gasoline engine.

kenchan · 07-09-2007, 12:24 PM

who? john wat?

***illusionstwice*** · 07-09-2007, 12:27 PM

Sounds like his Music career just SUCKS and he needs some money.

Anubis · 07-09-2007, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenchan

who? john wat?

hence the lawsuit

career must not be going to well.......

Axian · 07-09-2007, 12:50 PM

I drive an '07 Civic Coupe LX 5 spd. and I live in Vermont (lots of hills) When I fist got my civic I was a little bit dissappointed that I was getting ~35 MPG... after about 1k miles I noticed that is was getting 37-38 MPG... now after 2K miles I am getting 40-41 MPG. I do not drive fast or hard and I accelerate slowly.

I couldn't be more happy with my MPG.

This dude needs to stop hauling that 2000lbs of cinder blocks around or maybe go on a diet. Either that or he drives his Hybird like he stole it.

-Ax

Tastycakes · 07-09-2007, 12:58 PM

32 MPG? LMAO i could geat high 30's in my yaris w/o even trying and close to 30 in my Si if i drive like a bit*h.

He's totally going to lose. I mean Honda has nothing to do w/ the MPG ratings, thats all EPA stuff. Even still the EPA ratings are pretty close to what my cars have gotten. I mean the Si went from 23/32 to 20/29 for the new ratings i think. I have never gotton under 23 in my Si for a tank and i drive like a dick

.

Its people in big cities that drive their cars cold for 5 miles to work everyday. Yea their gonna average 20 MPG in the Si i guess, i dunno.

xcopx · 07-09-2007, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axian

Either that or he drives his Hybird like he stole it.

-Ax

vtekin' the hybrid

***Janizary*** · 07-09-2007, 12:59 PM

Heh. One of my neighbors drives/owns a new Prius. He complains all the time about his 'crappy' MPG, ranting about not getting anywhere near the specs that are listed for that car.

That said, we now drive about half way to work on the same road and leave about the same time in the morning. He regularly outaccelerates and passes me on my way into work when driving any of my vehicles (truck, Jeep, the wife's EOS) and I see him zipping along passing other traffic ahead of me.

As the person above stated. It you drive it like you stole it, its going to return poor MPG figures.

Tastycakes · 07-09-2007, 01:05 PM

I know its so funny seeing a prius or a insight driving like a nut. Like whats the point? lol. Its like trying to get good MPG in a Escalade, not gonna happen

.

xxhaimbondxx · 07-09-2007, 08:21 PM

I guess it's just the principle. I would sue them too, but few things stop me: No time, no perspective $$ in law suit. The best they can do is refund you your money. So other than the principle, why bother?

***organiz3d_chaos*** · 07-09-2007, 08:39 PM

what a douche

**atruhondagrl** · 07-09-2007, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by illusionstwice

Sounds like his Music career just SUCKS and he needs some money.

Agreed.

TJ213 · 07-09-2007, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tastycakes

I know its so funny seeing a prius or a insight driving like a nut. Like whats the point? lol. Its like trying to get good MPG in a Escalade, not gonna happen

.

A lot of people in high traffic areas get them so they can use the HOV lane.

Personally I get 18mpg premium, which is a good bit under the EPA's ratings, but I'm not going to sue, although I wish there was something I could hook up to the ECU to count the number of times I've hit 8k

RJJensen · 07-09-2007, 09:59 PM

when r we gonna sue for the paint and other probs...actual legitimate reasons for a lawsuit?...y would ne one pay 29k for a civic...lol

The Shishpanik · 07-09-2007, 10:12 PM

That guy is dumb. It's the music equipment he hauls around that gets him poor mpg. And like someone said before, it was the epa ratings. If you go to www.greenhybrid.com some guys are getting 70+ mpg in their HCH's.

jocasti · 07-09-2007, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by organiz3d_chaos

what a douche

damn, beat me to it

taffysi · 07-09-2007, 10:58 PM

He's just doing it for the publicity and promoting himself for his near extinct music career. Not to try to sound negative, I'm a musician as well and its a tough business!

07-09-2007, 01:25 AM	#1 (permalink)
xcopx Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: from NorCal, stationed in NC Age: 25 Posts: 217 Nee-kon Squad! #4 iTrader: 0 / 0%	California musician sues Honda for overstating fuel economy of Civic hybrid http://www.mercextra.com/blogs/vindu...-civic-hybrid/ California musician sues Honda for overstating fuel economy of Civic hybrid By Vindu Goel Southern California musician John True has never gotten close to the fuel economy advertised by Honda for his Civic hybrid. Instead of the 49 mpg city/51 mpg highway listed on the sticker, the jazz pianist says he averaged just 32 mpg in 6,000 miles of mixed driving. Rather than just complain about it, True has filed a class action lawsuit against Honda, reports MediaNews. (AutoblogGreen has also published an interview with True in which the Ontario, Calif., resident discusses his experience with the Civic hybrid and why he filed the suit.) I think True faces an uphill legal battle, since Honda’s ads clearly stated that “mileage may vary.” But the discovery process could open up a lot of interesting documents about hybrids and just how hard or easy it is to achieve the stated fuel economy. True’s suit also intensifies the already spirited debate over hybrids’ fuel economy advantages. (The last time I wrote about the topic, I got 48 comments from readers, second only to my post about the iPhone. And the version of the MediaNews story on the Mercury News Website has already generated 33 comments, some supporting and some opposing True’s position). The official fuel-economy ratings advertised on the sticker of every new car are calculated by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, which has long used unrealistic driving patterns to test auto mileage. Starting with the 2008 model year, the EPA has modified its test patterns to reflect real-world driving by today’s drivers – reducing the listed fuel economy of every car, but especially hybrids. (The Civic hybrid drops to 40 city/45 highway under the new system.) Hybrid fans say you can achieve or even exceed the EPA fuel economy if you change your driving patterns, including slowing your acceleration. Driving the speed limit also helps tremendously. But skeptics say that hybrids, which run on a mix of gas and electric power, just don’t have a big enough advantage over gas-fueled cars to justify the higher price tag. (True says he paid $7,000 more for his hybrid Civic than a comparable conventional Civic.) Consumer Reports, whose auto ratings are followed closely by millions, says that it got 37 mpg overall for the Civic hybrid during its last round of testing, compared with 28 mpg for the automatic and 31 mpg for the manual gas-fueled versions. If a driver got CR’s mileage, it would take an awful lot of driving to make up for the difference in cost, especially since the upfront tax incentives to buy hybrids are drying up. (The cash cost excludes other hybrid benefits, such as reduced greenhouse-gas emissions, which might make people willing to pay more.) Rather than posting a single mileage number, I wonder if the EPA or automakers could be more helpful to car buyers by giving them a range of fuel economy numbers, with the low and high ends defined by specific driving patterns. Or clearly state that actual mileage may be 20 to 30 percent less (or whatever is accurate) than the listed number based on individual driving habits.

07-09-2007, 12:59 PM	#10 (permalink)
*Janizary* Minister of Discord Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sith Ferret dojo Posts: 6,497 Gas thread Nazi iTrader: 0 / 0%	Heh. One of my neighbors drives/owns a new Prius. He complains all the time about his 'crappy' MPG, ranting about not getting anywhere near the specs that are listed for that car. That said, we now drive about half way to work on the same road and leave about the same time in the morning. He regularly outaccelerates and passes me on my way into work when driving any of my vehicles (truck, Jeep, the wife's EOS) and I see him zipping along passing other traffic ahead of me. As the person above stated. It you drive it like you stole it, its going to return poor MPG figures. __________________ • Official BMW 1-Series Thread • DX/LX/EX Gas Mileage Thread • Civic Si Gas Mileage Thread • Civic Hybrid Gas Mileage Thread

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07-09-2007, 03:29 AM	#2 (permalink)
TJ213 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Pennsylvania Age: 18 Posts: 3,037 iTrader: 0 / 0%	So.. he's suing honda for a number that they don't decide?

07-09-2007, 03:47 AM	#3 (permalink)
e60.deluxe Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Lake Forest, CA Age: 22 Posts: 4,627 iTrader: 3 / 100%	people need to understand that acceleration is a huge part of feul economy. hybrids are slow. dont try to drive them as quickly as a gasoline engine.

07-09-2007, 12:24 PM	#4 (permalink)
kenchan Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Midwest Posts: 2,064 iTrader: 1 / 100%	who? john wat?

07-09-2007, 12:27 PM	#5 (permalink)
*illusionstwice* I party better than you Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: DiRtY JerZ Age: 25 Posts: 18,421 The original --> "J" <-- iTrader: 7 / 100%	Sounds like his Music career just SUCKS and he needs some money.

07-09-2007, 12:50 PM	#7 (permalink)
Axian Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Eden Mills, Vermont Age: 34 Posts: 355 Geezer Squad member #131 iTrader: 0 / 0%	I drive an '07 Civic Coupe LX 5 spd. and I live in Vermont (lots of hills) When I fist got my civic I was a little bit dissappointed that I was getting ~35 MPG... after about 1k miles I noticed that is was getting 37-38 MPG... now after 2K miles I am getting 40-41 MPG. I do not drive fast or hard and I accelerate slowly. I couldn't be more happy with my MPG. This dude needs to stop hauling that 2000lbs of cinder blocks around or maybe go on a diet. Either that or he drives his Hybird like he stole it. -Ax

07-09-2007, 12:58 PM	#8 (permalink)
Tastycakes Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Libertyville, IL Age: 24 Posts: 2,525 Mike iTrader: 0 / 0%	32 MPG? LMAO i could geat high 30's in my yaris w/o even trying and close to 30 in my Si if i drive like a bit*h. He's totally going to lose. I mean Honda has nothing to do w/ the MPG ratings, thats all EPA stuff. Even still the EPA ratings are pretty close to what my cars have gotten. I mean the Si went from 23/32 to 20/29 for the new ratings i think. I have never gotton under 23 in my Si for a tank and i drive like a dick . Its people in big cities that drive their cars cold for 5 miles to work everyday. Yea their gonna average 20 MPG in the Si i guess, i dunno.

07-09-2007, 01:05 PM	#11 (permalink)
Tastycakes Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Libertyville, IL Age: 24 Posts: 2,525 Mike iTrader: 0 / 0%	I know its so funny seeing a prius or a insight driving like a nut. Like whats the point? lol. Its like trying to get good MPG in a Escalade, not gonna happen .

07-09-2007, 08:21 PM	#12 (permalink)
xxhaimbondxx Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Brooklyn=>Albany, NY Posts: 524 iTrader: 0 / 0%	I guess it's just the principle. I would sue them too, but few things stop me: No time, no perspective $$ in law suit. The best they can do is refund you your money. So other than the principle, why bother?

07-09-2007, 08:39 PM	#13 (permalink)
*organiz3d_chaos* VIP Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Stillwater, OK Posts: 1,077 Billy iTrader: 2 / 100%	what a douche

07-09-2007, 09:59 PM	#16 (permalink)
RJJensen Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: NJ Posts: 820 iTrader: 0 / 0%	when r we gonna sue for the paint and other probs...actual legitimate reasons for a lawsuit?...y would ne one pay 29k for a civic...lol

07-09-2007, 10:12 PM	#17 (permalink)
The Shishpanik Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: College park, MD Posts: 2,044 Fear the Turtle! iTrader: 1 / 100%	That guy is dumb. It's the music equipment he hauls around that gets him poor mpg. And like someone said before, it was the epa ratings. If you go to www.greenhybrid.com some guys are getting 70+ mpg in their HCH's.

07-09-2007, 10:58 PM	#19 (permalink)
taffysi Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 530 iTrader: 0 / 0%	He's just doing it for the publicity and promoting himself for his near extinct music career. Not to try to sound negative, I'm a musician as well and its a tough business!