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Old 01-24-2013, 10:54 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Question Thinking about jumping into an FRS? Opinions? Owners?

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I'm thinking about dropping my lease and getting into a 2013 Scion FRS. I've done a lot of research on the car and I still can't pull the trigger. The biggest thing that's holding me back is the extra $100 a month (lease) to drive it.
I will be losing a sunroof, back seat room, trunk space, fog lights and steering wheels controls. I could care less about the rear seat room and trunk space because I barely use these two features. At most I use my rear seats 10 times a year and my trunk for a snowboard a couple times a year. The fog lights i will miss but I would install a set into the FRS. I do enjoy my sunroof but only use it 2-3 months of the year.

Seeing that I come from a Honda family and that my dad has worked for Honda for almost 30 years, he really didn't have much to say about the FRS. He hated the fact that it's running a Boxer Motor. He's a big fan of sports cars and Toyota so I didn't see how he didn't like it. He owns an S2000 and can't see some other the comparisons.

Anyways, long story short, I took him with me to test drive the car and he didn't want to even come. Once my dad saw the car he was quite impressed. He liked the exterior and he didn't mind the interior much. He mentioned that the back seats were too small (again, i could care less) and he still didn't like the fact that it had the Boxer motor.

We test drove the car and he enjoyed the drive. My dad enjoyed the torque, the transmission (manual) because its the EXACT same feel of the S2000 transmission. At the end of the day he didn't mind the car but he still thinks i'm wasting money on the FRS.

At the end of the day, it's my decision to get the car or not. I did want my dad's opinion on the car seeing he's worked in the automotive industry for over 40 years and owned a lot of different cars. I plan on getting married sometime in the next 2-3 years but no kids for atleast 7 years. *knock on wood*.


Are there any Si owners that have test drove the FRS or own one now? what are your opinions? I would greatly appreciate it if anyone that has knowledge/ experience with this car could chime in a bit! Would love to hear your guys' opinions!

Thanks in advance guys!

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Old 01-25-2013, 10:03 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Old 01-25-2013, 10:58 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Any lease or even new car purchase is a waste.

You said what your dad thought but what did you like about the frs?
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Old 01-25-2013, 11:34 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Don't do it.

Extra $100/mo. for a LEASE?
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Old 01-25-2013, 03:19 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Your dad probably didn't see anything special int he frs because he already has a s2k.
The s2k is like a grand daddy of the frs/brz's, but you can expect so with the extra 10K price difference.
I really like the car, not sure if id want it as my daily car though. Sometimes when people end up trading in these types of cars early because it just doesn't meet there day to day requirements.
Also, what exactley is wrong with a "boxer" engine? I like how they dont need a harmonic balancer, and they more compact and lower then a typical inline4.

Last edited by pks17; 01-25-2013 at 03:21 PM.
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Old 01-25-2013, 03:51 PM   #6 (permalink)
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On one of the twin forums they had a good thread of what current owners dislike. Common complaints are small trunk, no arm rest, no storage and lack of auto return for seat adjustments.
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Old 01-25-2013, 04:13 PM   #7 (permalink)
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The FR-s would be great if you wanted to actually track the car or get it sideways. if you are not planning to do either of those you are really wasting your money if you are coming from and SI as (i have not driven an si) many SI owners say they are pretty close to the same besides the drivetrain.

i have gotten the fr-s sideways and it is awesome, it handles better than the cars i have driven stock for stock, but if you are going to use it as a grocery getter then it isn't really worth it as you will be spending more for less creature comforts and a smaller trunk.
plus you plan on getting married soon so having an fr-s isnt the best investment because of kids, yes i know you said that you aren't planning on having kids for 7 years but in 7 years are you willing to buy a new car because you have them?

you want a sports car? get an older RWD and make it a project.

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Old 01-25-2013, 04:15 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Good toy, but too small and too little power for a DD.

And how do you "drop your lease"?
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Old 01-25-2013, 04:23 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Leonard1818 View Post
Don't do it.

Extra $100/mo. for a LEASE?


And your location says you in Vancouver and you only use your sunroof 2-3 months...? Clearly you experience cold/winter months, I'm just not sure how practical a RWD DD would be in that climate.
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Old 01-25-2013, 06:08 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I'm just not sure how practical a RWD DD would be in that climate.
Good point.

To the OP: Given all of the pertinent data you've provided, it sounds like more of a lateral move to me. A tradeoff of sorts... sacrificing in some areas and gaining in others. Overall sounds like a wash -- all things considered. Sure when pressed against a specific set of performance criteria the FRS/BRZ sounds better but it sounds like you're not buying a car JUST for performance reasons...
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Old 01-26-2013, 12:46 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Lol no Kids for 7yrs, trust me they will come. I bought my FA5 to keep my S2k. I drove the Brz auto and 6spd, it was very quite inside. I found the motor to be gutless, the dealer really let me drive the car and i found it to be boring. But i respect the idea and glad that its sell well.
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Old 01-26-2013, 02:02 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Hey man, Im also from around the GVRD. I also just traded up my FA5 for the FRS. My civic was my DD but also my autox and track toy. I moved to the FRS because the compromises of the civic were starting to show too much as a I grew with more seat time, instruction and more serious events. I always said to all my friends and racing buddies, the Si is a perfect DD *except* the fact that its FF. I really enjoy getting some proper slip angle, and whenever I got the chance, pretty much any car that was rwd I would drive sideways and have a ball.

That being said, unless you are going to do some kind of racing, or just casual autox, I don't think the tradeup is worth it. The FRS is an amazing sports car, and an exceptional value in those terms. But without the driver training and appreciation for racing, I dont know if you will be able to feel or appreciate the minute differences the FRS offers, as an advantage to someone like me. For the record I had a rollbar in my civic, so my 4 door was technically a 2 seater, so I never used the back seats except for groceries anyways. The stereo is about the same, the comfort is about the same (again, the FRS offers a much more superior driving position but most people cannot appreciate the difference it makes), the engine makes about the same power but the honda sounds better and shifts slightly smoother. I enjoy the girth of the FRS wheel and the feedback the car provides is what gives me the most joy with this car but the civic wasn't bad and had the steering wheel controls which I really liked.

Basically for DD duties and given our situations are similar (young, don't need to ferry a ton of people can do with two seats) I can say that the civic is just as good if not better. I have zero regrets with my car (what is the opposite of buyers remorse ?) but for a casual DD I would not say its worth the extra $. As far as DD capable, and power and all that, don't listen to these fools. The toyobaru is no worse as a DD then the civic, in fact its basically comparable to the FG2. For the street I enjoy something with lower power that I can drive properly than something like say a vette, which you can't drive at even 8/10ths without endangering a city block or doing double the speed limit. These kind of cars make a PERFECT street and daily driver.

Last edited by eunos; 01-26-2013 at 02:07 AM.
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Old 01-26-2013, 12:24 PM   #13 (permalink)
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^ good point about the vette. I've owned one for over 15 months and have only went full throttle maybe twice. I can't afford to risk of such speeds. Just 3/4 throttle is quicker 0-60 than most other cars. Even just passing a car can easily result in tripple digits in mere seconds.

I went full throttle in the frs several times in the test drive. My wife didn't even notice.....
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Old 01-26-2013, 07:16 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by testify View Post
Good toy, but too small and too little power for a DD.

And how do you "drop your lease"?
too small yes but too little power? wtf??

its lighter than a civic and has more power and the civic has plenty of power for a dd.....its a perfect city car and has enough power for the highway (civic) so why wouldnt the frs/brz?

you make no sense with what you said.
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Old 01-27-2013, 04:07 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Thanks for all the posts guys! Keep them coming!



Quote:
Originally Posted by ryker View Post
Any lease or even new car purchase is a waste.

You said what your dad thought but what did you like about the frs?
I like a lot of things about the car. By far the two things I like is the history/ heritage of the car and the overall look of it. The RWD portion is really nice and I think i want a change up. I've never owned a RWD car, just driven my dads s2000 here and there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pks17 View Post
Your dad probably didn't see anything special int he frs because he already has a s2k.
The s2k is like a grand daddy of the frs/brz's, but you can expect so with the extra 10K price difference.
I really like the car, not sure if id want it as my daily car though. Sometimes when people end up trading in these types of cars early because it just doesn't meet there day to day requirements.
Also, what exactley is wrong with a "boxer" engine? I like how they dont need a harmonic balancer, and they more compact and lower then a typical inline4.
I do agree that the s2000 is a superior car and I did expect him to look down on it in comparison. He's recieved a lot of subaru trade ins and a majority of them have had some sort of motor issue. He also complains that they are loud (motor, not exhaust) and aren't as reliable. Funny thing is the guy wanted a Porsche Boxter at one point...

Quote:
Originally Posted by testify View Post
Good toy, but too small and too little power for a DD.

And how do you "drop your lease"?
The power doesn't bother me. I think 200hp is more than enough for DD. I like opening my cars up time to time but with the new 40km over impounding law is rediculous in BC! It's just not worth risking anymore. I'll push it to the law limit time to time but thats about it.

As for dropping my lease, I tend to put low km on my car and keep them great condition so by the time i'm half way through my lease, my buyout is positive and they'll let me terminate my lease at no charge. I've done this a few times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonard1818 View Post
Good point.

To the OP: Given all of the pertinent data you've provided, it sounds like more of a lateral move to me. A tradeoff of sorts... sacrificing in some areas and gaining in others. Overall sounds like a wash -- all things considered. Sure when pressed against a specific set of performance criteria the FRS/BRZ sounds better but it sounds like you're not buying a car JUST for performance reasons...
I 100% agree! I do gain and lose in different areas. I want to drive a true sports car. I don't have high expectations to the point where i have to jump into lexus' and bmw's. I love the fact that toyota/ subaru revived the 86!

Quote:
Originally Posted by eunos View Post
Hey man, Im also from around the GVRD. I also just traded up my FA5 for the FRS. My civic was my DD but also my autox and track toy. I moved to the FRS because the compromises of the civic were starting to show too much as a I grew with more seat time, instruction and more serious events. I always said to all my friends and racing buddies, the Si is a perfect DD *except* the fact that its FF. I really enjoy getting some proper slip angle, and whenever I got the chance, pretty much any car that was rwd I would drive sideways and have a ball.

That being said, unless you are going to do some kind of racing, or just casual autox, I don't think the tradeup is worth it. The FRS is an amazing sports car, and an exceptional value in those terms. But without the driver training and appreciation for racing, I dont know if you will be able to feel or appreciate the minute differences the FRS offers, as an advantage to someone like me. For the record I had a rollbar in my civic, so my 4 door was technically a 2 seater, so I never used the back seats except for groceries anyways. The stereo is about the same, the comfort is about the same (again, the FRS offers a much more superior driving position but most people cannot appreciate the difference it makes), the engine makes about the same power but the honda sounds better and shifts slightly smoother. I enjoy the girth of the FRS wheel and the feedback the car provides is what gives me the most joy with this car but the civic wasn't bad and had the steering wheel controls which I really liked.

Basically for DD duties and given our situations are similar (young, don't need to ferry a ton of people can do with two seats) I can say that the civic is just as good if not better. I have zero regrets with my car (what is the opposite of buyers remorse ?) but for a casual DD I would not say its worth the extra $. As far as DD capable, and power and all that, don't listen to these fools. The toyobaru is no worse as a DD then the civic, in fact its basically comparable to the FG2. For the street I enjoy something with lower power that I can drive properly than something like say a vette, which you can't drive at even 8/10ths without endangering a city block or doing double the speed limit. These kind of cars make a PERFECT street and daily driver.
Good to here from a fellow GVRD member! I've wanted to own an s2000 for the last 8 years but over the last 4 years i've just realized how impractical the car really is for me. This would never make it as a DD for me. No rear seats, soft top, low and not as fuel eff. I've been looking for a new car that reasonably priced to replace my s2000 dream. The closest thing IMO is the Scion FRS. I love the history/ heritage of the car and a lot of the spec on it!

I do agree with you about tracking the car. I've never gone out to actuall autoX or track my civic because its FF. Not that it's a big deal and I know hundreds of members here do. Something has just held me back.. If I did get the FRS i would for sure want to get it a little sideways. I'm not going to lie, i would probably get it sideways a little here and there on my local streets. Please keep in mind that i don't support street racing and anything like that. I would pretty much limit this to deserted streets and rainy nights. I'm sure everyone has been guilty of this! everyone is human!

How did your car handle this winter? That was one of my biggest concerns. I know i'll have to pick up a set of winters for the FRS. I really should have this year for my Si but i just snuck by not getting them. Granted our winters are unpredictable and we see more rain than snow anyways. How's motor reliability? I've heard of ECU issues and what not.
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Old 01-28-2013, 05:52 PM   #16 (permalink)
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So jbsali wanted me to give some more feedback on the car and I figured I would drop it in here for anyone who is also looking at getting into the toyobaru! Having owned both cars I hope to give some non-biased insight.

First with respect to the s2000:

The s2000 is probably a slightly better sports car and the only other car I was considering against the FRS. As an overall vehicle and only vehicle the FRS offers a more lucrative package I believe. Stock for stock, the s2000 is faster. With the same mods, the cars are about equal laptimes wise. There is an experienced trackrat on ft86club.com (CSG Mike I believe) who owns both cars and readily admits that while he loves the s2000, the FRS is the faster car with the same mods.

The S2000 has the more exciting motor and sounds better, it's a convertible (this could be a pro/con depending on what you want). However, its no more exciting to drive and while it has very precise steering, it does not offer the same feedback as the FRS does through the steering wheel. The s2k offers a better interior, but the leather is a big no-no for me. Doesn't matter too much because I would replace the stock seats in any car I have. Both cars will have relatively high NVH. Im guessing the insurance is a little higher on the s2k and we know the mileage is worse.

Both cars are extremely fun to drive, my favorite rwd cars under 50k without a doubt. The FRS is easier to drive sideways but both cars readily throw the tail out. I never found the s2000 to have the infamous snap oversteer but I have always set up my cars to oversteer readily. However, the aerodynamics of the s2000 are quite poor relative to the FRS and the s2k develops a lot of lift at the rear at higher speeds. This is where the FRS can make a lot of time up, its much more stable at higher speed, a lot of guys who track/tt the s2k say the car "needs" a wing on the faster tracks. The brakes on the FRS are better, but I will be replacing mine with the AP Racing sprint kit, which saves an unbelievable 10lb of unsprung weight per front corner!

In the end it came down to me wanting only one color combination of the s2k: white with red interior. This color is very hard to find and a lot of the local cars are in questionable condition and would still cost me as much as the FRS for a low mileage car, except used. Because I was very impressed with the steering of the FRS, wanted to support this sports car and was offered the convenience of just trading my car in and not dealing with the used car market I pulled the trigger. I got the car I wanted brand new, in the color I wanted, with the options I wanted and zero hassle.

Something to keep in mind, as an apples to apples comparison the s2k was a 45k car. So not even in the same market as the Toyobaru twins.

In the GVRD and vs the FA5:

My FA5 (2008) honestly never had the VSC or traction and I was always on ultra summers or race tires so my civic was always terrible in snow. However, in the last couple years we have been getting less than a week of snow so I have managed. In that sense the FRS is even better with the all seasons and traction control.

The frameless windows lower on the FRS every time you open the door. This has caused some people grief in colder climates, because they freeze, or the motors struggle...etc. I think we don't have temps low enough to cause any serious problems like this, but I can see it eventually developing into a problem if you live in the colder climate.

Some people have "crickets" where there is a constant chirping noise coming from the engine bay, Im sure it will eventually get figured out. Also the FRS is more sensitive to bad gas (Probably because of the DI) as can be seen on MotoIQ - Automotive Tech, Project Cars, Performance & Motorsports. If the car detects bad gas it will cut back power.

Aside from that I haven't seen anything too common or major. All cars have problems, all manufacturers have lemons and people with the problems are the vocal ones whereas people happy with their car keep quiet. The cars are built in Japan and overall show good quality control, I am very happy and no problems.

The steering feel and weight is much better in the FRS and the sitting position is superior by far. But you give up the steering wheel controls. The seat hugs you better in the FRS but overall quality wise the Si looked to have the slightly higher quality seats. The radio in the FRS wins because it has a bluetooth and modern audio stuff, much better than just the AUX input on the Si. I never bother changing the audio in my cars so its nice to get something better spec.

The engine in the Si sounds better, the shifter shifts smoother. The FRS has well defined shift gates though and has much better throttle tuning (response, smoothness..etc). Hard to say from the butt dyno, but the FRS seems to have a bit better torque down low and doesn't struggle at 2000rpm like the Si did.

The car is much more fun to "just drive" than the Si it really communicates and gives you feedback which I really enjoy. This apparently gets even better on proper tires. Basically, if I had 50k, I would be looking at 996 GT3, Boss 302 or Cayman S for a DD than can handle some track time. For 30k, the FRS is the car for me, nothing even comes close in the price market for my purposes.
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Old 01-28-2013, 07:01 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eunos View Post
So jbsali wanted me to give some more feedback on the car and I figured I would drop it in here for anyone who is also looking at getting into the toyobaru! Having owned both cars I hope to give some non-biased insight.

First with respect to the s2000:

The s2000 is probably a slightly better sports car and the only other car I was considering against the FRS. As an overall vehicle and only vehicle the FRS offers a more lucrative package I believe. Stock for stock, the s2000 is faster. With the same mods, the cars are about equal laptimes wise. There is an experienced trackrat on ft86club.com (CSG Mike I believe) who owns both cars and readily admits that while he loves the s2000, the FRS is the faster car with the same mods.

The S2000 has the more exciting motor and sounds better, it's a convertible (this could be a pro/con depending on what you want). However, its no more exciting to drive and while it has very precise steering, it does not offer the same feedback as the FRS does through the steering wheel. The s2k offers a better interior, but the leather is a big no-no for me. Doesn't matter too much because I would replace the stock seats in any car I have. Both cars will have relatively high NVH. Im guessing the insurance is a little higher on the s2k and we know the mileage is worse.

Both cars are extremely fun to drive, my favorite rwd cars under 50k without a doubt. The FRS is easier to drive sideways but both cars readily throw the tail out. I never found the s2000 to have the infamous snap oversteer but I have always set up my cars to oversteer readily. However, the aerodynamics of the s2000 are quite poor relative to the FRS and the s2k develops a lot of lift at the rear at higher speeds. This is where the FRS can make a lot of time up, its much more stable at higher speed, a lot of guys who track/tt the s2k say the car "needs" a wing on the faster tracks. The brakes on the FRS are better, but I will be replacing mine with the AP Racing sprint kit, which saves an unbelievable 10lb of unsprung weight per front corner!

In the end it came down to me wanting only one color combination of the s2k: white with red interior. This color is very hard to find and a lot of the local cars are in questionable condition and would still cost me as much as the FRS for a low mileage car, except used. Because I was very impressed with the steering of the FRS, wanted to support this sports car and was offered the convenience of just trading my car in and not dealing with the used car market I pulled the trigger. I got the car I wanted brand new, in the color I wanted, with the options I wanted and zero hassle.

Something to keep in mind, as an apples to apples comparison the s2k was a 45k car. So not even in the same market as the Toyobaru twins.

In the GVRD and vs the FA5:

My FA5 (2008) honestly never had the VSC or traction and I was always on ultra summers or race tires so my civic was always terrible in snow. However, in the last couple years we have been getting less than a week of snow so I have managed. In that sense the FRS is even better with the all seasons and traction control.

The frameless windows lower on the FRS every time you open the door. This has caused some people grief in colder climates, because they freeze, or the motors struggle...etc. I think we don't have temps low enough to cause any serious problems like this, but I can see it eventually developing into a problem if you live in the colder climate.

Some people have "crickets" where there is a constant chirping noise coming from the engine bay, Im sure it will eventually get figured out. Also the FRS is more sensitive to bad gas (Probably because of the DI) as can be seen on MotoIQ - Automotive Tech, Project Cars, Performance & Motorsports. If the car detects bad gas it will cut back power.

Aside from that I haven't seen anything too common or major. All cars have problems, all manufacturers have lemons and people with the problems are the vocal ones whereas people happy with their car keep quiet. The cars are built in Japan and overall show good quality control, I am very happy and no problems.

The steering feel and weight is much better in the FRS and the sitting position is superior by far. But you give up the steering wheel controls. The seat hugs you better in the FRS but overall quality wise the Si looked to have the slightly higher quality seats. The radio in the FRS wins because it has a bluetooth and modern audio stuff, much better than just the AUX input on the Si. I never bother changing the audio in my cars so its nice to get something better spec.

The engine in the Si sounds better, the shifter shifts smoother. The FRS has well defined shift gates though and has much better throttle tuning (response, smoothness..etc). Hard to say from the butt dyno, but the FRS seems to have a bit better torque down low and doesn't struggle at 2000rpm like the Si did.

The car is much more fun to "just drive" than the Si it really communicates and gives you feedback which I really enjoy. This apparently gets even better on proper tires. Basically, if I had 50k, I would be looking at 996 GT3, Boss 302 or Cayman S for a DD than can handle some track time. For 30k, the FRS is the car for me, nothing even comes close in the price market for my purposes.
thanks a lot Ivan for this review! This answered a lot of my questions/ concerns with the car! If I make the jump into an FRS I will most likely pick it up sometime between march-april unless the 2014's are just around the corner!

My last question is really about the purchase of your car. Is it really true that you can't haggle with Scion? I've heard from a lot of people that their prices are set and non-negotiable. I've heard of some people online that have had an accessory or two thrown in with the car versus cutting the price down. How was your experience and which dealer did you go through?

Again, thanks a lot for your help!
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Old 01-28-2013, 10:14 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I got mine at Jim Pattison Scion in Guildford, through Enky - Internet Sales Manager. Highly recommended, pleasant to deal with, no BS and humble; took care of me really well. Let him know I referred you if you end up going there.

As far as the MSRP, its hard to say. You will have a bit of bargaining power if you are buying a car on the lot that they already have, I doubt they will move much if you order one. My situation was different because I was working a trade in, so I did pay MSRP but I am happy with what I got for my car in the end, which is what was important for me. I got the BeSpoke audio face and pearl white both of which added to the cost. A lot of people are really unhappy with the Bespoke in the states, but there it costs them almost 1k, whereas here I think its a 400-500$ option. I just didn't want the ghetto looking stock head unit more-so for aesthetics and because I won't be touching the audio.

It seems basically you are looking at around 30k out the door in Canada, which is what you will get on the website. Im not complaining since that is what they ask for an Si and even more so for an Mx5 (what a joke

Also forgot to mention the car has some cool little e-gimicks that I appreciate and didnt have with the Si: Adjustable shift light, optional beep with said light, gear indicator with an indicator when to upshift for optimal mpg...

New Modified Mag just did an Si vs FRS comparo, both stock and with same mods. Stock it was 5 seconds faster around a 1:30 track, haha!

Last edited by eunos; 01-28-2013 at 10:30 PM.
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Old 01-29-2013, 05:41 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by eunos View Post
I got mine at Jim Pattison Scion in Guildford, through Enky - Internet Sales Manager. Highly recommended, pleasant to deal with, no BS and humble; took care of me really well. Let him know I referred you if you end up going there.

As far as the MSRP, its hard to say. You will have a bit of bargaining power if you are buying a car on the lot that they already have, I doubt they will move much if you order one. My situation was different because I was working a trade in, so I did pay MSRP but I am happy with what I got for my car in the end, which is what was important for me. I got the BeSpoke audio face and pearl white both of which added to the cost. A lot of people are really unhappy with the Bespoke in the states, but there it costs them almost 1k, whereas here I think its a 400-500$ option. I just didn't want the ghetto looking stock head unit more-so for aesthetics and because I won't be touching the audio.

It seems basically you are looking at around 30k out the door in Canada, which is what you will get on the website. Im not complaining since that is what they ask for an Si and even more so for an Mx5 (what a joke

Also forgot to mention the car has some cool little e-gimicks that I appreciate and didnt have with the Si: Adjustable shift light, optional beep with said light, gear indicator with an indicator when to upshift for optimal mpg...

New Modified Mag just did an Si vs FRS comparo, both stock and with same mods. Stock it was 5 seconds faster around a 1:30 track, haha!
Thanks a ton Ivan! I only live 5 min away from the surrey automall so i'll drop in and check out the red and white again. Still can't make up my mind! ahhhh! i'm hoping that the 2014's will be released soon and that they will drop the price/ interest rate of the 2013's.

Thanks again!
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Old 01-29-2013, 09:17 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Great comparisons
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