Official BMW 1-Series Thread (Merged)

[aki]

Problem is, a 135i will easily cost $30k, probably into the mid to high 30k given BMW's penchant for high profit margins.

That's what sets Honda apart from BMW: value. With BMW, you spend a couple extra thousand dollars for the prestige value, whereas a car like the Si has much slimmer profit margins in order to stay competitive. At heart, BMW isn't a performance company. It's a luxury company catering to luxury performance enthusiasts. Or wannabe enthusiasts who like to stroll down Sunset Blvd at 25 mph showing their cars off.

[ender]

Originally Posted by aki

Problem is, a 135i will easily cost $30k, probably into the mid to high 30k...

And this is a problem? That's a great price range for a high-end RWD coupe that offers 300hp/300 lbs-ft tq. The $30k price range is right in line with the G35/G37, which are both high-end 300hp+ RWD coupes. Even cars such as the 350Z are just under $30k. You won't find many RWD sport coupes that are not close to the $30k mark, there are a few but not many. Besides, it's a bit early to be speculating on the price of the 135i.

Originally Posted by aki

That's what sets Honda apart from BMW: value. With BMW, you spend a couple extra thousand dollars for the prestige value, whereas a car like the Si has much slimmer profit margins in order to stay competitive. At heart, BMW isn't a performance company. It's a luxury company catering to luxury performance enthusiasts. Or wannabe enthusiasts who like to stroll down Sunset Blvd at 25 mph showing their cars off.

I'm sensing some unnecessary bias. The comparison doesn't make sense; BMW isn't in competition with any Honda. Now, Honda/Acura may be trying to compete with BMW but that is not the same. BMW doesn't even consider Audi a competitor let alone Honda.

You are incorrect in assuming that BMW isn't a performance oriented company just because their cars are luxurious as well as powerful. Are you trying to make a point that Honda is more of a performance company than BMW or are you trying to make a point that Honda is a pure performance car company? I'm not sure what you're getting at.

If you visit the BMW USA web site and go to the "About Us" section you will read, quite clearly, that BMW USA "...was established in 1975 as the United States importer of BMW luxury/performance vehicles." BMW produces cars that are both luxurious and high performing. I'm pretty sure that if BMW was merely "catering" to performance enthusiasts you wouldn't see such a long rich history of BMW in motor sports. Btw, what's wrong with someone buying a luxurious car and wanting to show it off? No offense but I think you're commentary was based on too much emotion and bias.

[e60.deluxe]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ender again.

i owe you one. ^^^

seriously. some people here are drooling over a Mugen Si. others are saying forget that, just spend a couple grand more and get a TL-S. yeah 38k for a front drive car screams value. no, what it screams is, "i wanted to buy a 335i, but i cared more about the things like free leather and navi, and will never drive this car properly to notice its FWD, and hey the HP is pretty close right? so its the same performance that means."

all over alot of car mags, especially in europe there is so much praise for the "Value" of the JCW Cooper S GP. thats 220hp, FWD and $32,000.

the 135i would be a steal.

aki is acusing BMW of going the way of being too much luxury. yet when BMWs are compared to the competition, they are THE MOST performance oriented company of the lot. they are practically the only company who hasnt switched to V6's instead of straight 6's because a V6 will provide more cabin space because an Inline 6 requires no dynamic balancing. they make Zero FWD vehicles sans the ones badged MINI. they are the only ones who offer stick shifts on the size luxury cars, 5 series. and previously did on the 7 series as well in europe back when they still offered them in I6 engines. (NA hasnt seen an I6 7er in a LONG time)

BMW is one of the only companies who never comprimises the drive, things like steering response, driver feedback for things like price and more cabin space. even Audi has gone the way of FWD and things like shoving the engine to the front to give most space inside. even the 7 series has a 50/50 weight balance. most other companies, if its not a sport oriented vehicle they let things like that go to hell.

and its funny... when the G35/G37 TL-S/ IS350 comparisons come up... BMW is accused of not including enough luxury features standard that the other companies do...haha and now look at aki.


edit:
if you look at same car stunts on the making of section of some movies...whenever a large luxury car is i remember in i think the transporter, they say how much a BMW is prefered... in cars the size of the 5 and 7 series, BMW are the only ones who make such a big car with a refined enough suspension and balance to actually handle properly with a couple hundred pounds of camera equipment hanging like 5 feet off to the side of the car stock. when they use other cars, the suspension is heavily modified and specified to counter the weight and position the camera will be.

[aki]

Originally Posted by ender

I'm sensing some unnecessary bias. The comparison doesn't make sense; BMW isn't in competition with any Honda. Now, Honda/Acura may be trying to compete with BMW but that is not the same. BMW doesn't even consider Audi a competitor let alone Honda.

Funny you talk about unnecessary bias, when your post (and e60, but that's predictable) beams with it.

It's not a bias, you didn't read my post carefully. My point was about profit margins and how the PEOPLE who buy them care more about prestige than performance. That, and also about how for the money you can always find a better performing car. And no, BMW would be stupid to not consider Audi a threat, considering Audi's marketshare continually increases. Oh, and who sweeps Leman year after year? Audi, not BMW.

Strange you bring up Transporter, considering Transporter 2 used an A8 and A3.

For the money there's always better performing cars than BMW, and that's why I mentioned not being a performance-oriented company. Evo IX spanks a 335i on skidpad, acceleration and braking. But pardon me, an Evo IX doesn't look as classy as a 3 series when you're in the car sipping on an Orange Mocha Frappuccino whilst listening to Akon on your spiffy iPod.

when the G35/G37 TL-S/ IS350 comparisons come up... BMW is accused of not including enough luxury features standard that the other companies do...haha and now look at aki.

I'm not sure where you get this from, considering G37 has more rattles and creaks than the new 3 series, and was criticized for being less refined. Oh and the G37 is as quick as the 335i, for $7k less.

Since you bring up the notion of a BMW fan: oldschool BMW lovers (esp. E30 M3 buffs) have long lamented how BMW has steered away from performance and has focused more on luxury. People have been hoping the 1 series would be the return to form, so to speak. So no, even if you were a hardcore BMW enthusiast (and not the fairweather Bangle fan that oogles at whatever new iDrive'd Pontiac doppelganger that hits dealers), you wouldn't be gloating w/ praise of how performance-oriented BMW has been.

BMW isn't about creating sheer performance cars. If you disagree then I'd say you're the one that's being biased. I guess Motor Trend must be biased against the "Ultimate Driving Machine"?

Scans of G37 and 335i. Motor Trend deems G37 the superior vehicle. Start spinning that story.

http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread/260025

[e60.deluxe]

transporter used a 735i. the comment was the fact that such a big car didnt need the suspension modifying that other cars do and that they are preffered. not always used. remember there are things like $$. maybe Audi gives them more $$. maybe the director just wanted an Audi. WHO THE F really knows?

the point was the commentary by the stunt director. and Lemans doesnt use normal cars. the entire point was that even on a car thats not meant to be a sports car, BMW still makes them handle well for what they are. way to miss the point. but im sure you didnt miss the point, your just arguing and nitpicking my examples because your wrong. if you werent, wrong, youd argue the that the A8 handles as well stock, or that the FWD A4's drive equal or better to a 3 series or somethign like that.

you said what seperated Honda from BMW is the value...and now its EVO??

sorry, the EVO is a different car for a different purpose. just because you dont buy an EVO doesnt mean your buying a car only for its prestige. by that rationalization, you should say Honda is rip off city too because you pay like $3k more for a TL-S. you know what, the Si is a rip off too... you can buy a light kit car that smokes it for the same $.

and first its more luxury than performance, now its become ''they are not sheer performance''? lol. keep on backpedaling dude.

the G37 comment is from this board. just search 335i. youll find loads and loads of posts complaining about how the 335i doesnt offer enough luxury items as standard equipment, and thats what makes it a bad value. performance of either car is irrelavent to this comment. its about how most people complain about one thing and your complaining about the exact opposite.

[aki]

Originally Posted by e60.deluxe

the G37 comment is from this board. just search 335i. youll find loads and loads of posts complaining about how the 335i doesnt offer enough luxury items as standard equipment, and thats what makes it a bad value.

Therein lies the crux of my point. You can always find cheaper alternatives with equivalent performance AND better features. So where is this supposed BMW superiority?

[e60.deluxe]

Originally Posted by aki

Therein lies the crux of my point. You can always find cheaper alternatives with equivalent performance AND better features. So where is this supposed BMW superiority?

no, the performance is not equal. the 335i smokes an S2000, yet an S200 was brought up because it came with leather. the TL-S was brought up because of Navi. almost NO ONE arguing against BMW brought up performance with any proof. and the full specs of the G37 were NOT AVAILIBLE during the majority of my observations, and the 335i BEAT ALL THE REST in performance. ALL OF THEM.\

by the way, again according you your logic... i dont see any articled about a TL-S beating a 335i or a G37. therefore, Honda is also a ripoff. therefore, according to more of your logic (ie the one your applying to the 135i) cheaper Hondas must also a ripoff.

[ender]

Originally Posted by aki

Funny you talk about unnecessary bias, when your post (and e60, but that's predictable) beams with it.

Not really, my post lays out factual information. BMW does not compete with Honda and they make both luxurious and performance oriented cars. Those are facts, not opinion.

Originally Posted by aki

It's not a bias, you didn't read my post carefully. My point was about profit margins...

That is called speculation given that BMW NA has not announced the price of either of the 1-series cars. I already addressed this point in my last post.

Originally Posted by aki

...and how the PEOPLE who buy them care more about prestige than performance. That, and also about how for the money you can always find a better performing car.

Both of these points are opinion based. Your comments were quite obviously against BMW. There will always be a "better deal" to some people; in my eyes the 135i seems like the better deal. Yes, I do care about prestige because I'm a car enthusiast and I love a car company with rich racing heritage and an outstanding track record of making great cars.

Originally Posted by aki

And no, BMW would be stupid to not consider Audi a threat, considering Audi's marketshare continually increases.

What are you arguing here? Are you trying to support my comment or are you arguing with yourself?

Originally Posted by aki

Oh, and who sweeps Leman year after year? Audi, not BMW.

Again, what are you arguing here? I did not once mentioned anything about Audi's Le Mans win record. I'm fully aware of Audi's achievements in Le Mans. Are you making a point that Audi is better than BMW? You can make that argument all day and I'm perfectly fine with it considering that BMW hasn't competed in Le Mans since 1999. BMW moved onto F1 after winning the 1999 24 Hours of Le Mans. Keep in mind that Toyota, Mercedes and Nissan all left Le Mans after the 1999 season, which oddly enough is when Audi's winning streak began.

Originally Posted by aki

For the money there's always better performing cars than BMW, and that's why I mentioned not being a performance-oriented company.

How exactly does value tie into BMW not being a performance-oriented company? Are you saying that just because are car is not your ideal value car that it isn't performance oriented?

Originally Posted by aki

Evo IX spanks a 335i on skidpad, acceleration and braking. But pardon me, an Evo IX doesn't look as classy as a 3 series when you're in the car sipping on an Orange Mocha Frappuccino whilst listening to Akon on your spiffy iPod.

Why are you bringing up the Evo? I'd really like you to quote the sentence where I claimed that the BMW 335i was the best value car ever. I'm quite aware that the Evo is an amazing car for the price, but if I wanted an Evo I wouldn't have submitted my OP at all.

Originally Posted by aki

So no, even if you were a hardcore BMW enthusiast (and not the fairweather Bangle fan that oogles at whatever new iDrive'd Pontiac doppelganger that hits dealers), you wouldn't be gloating w/ praise of how performance-oriented BMW has been.

Ok, I'll be honest, I have no idea what a "fairweather Bangle fan" is. I've been a BMW fan since I first learned what an M3 and M5 where back when I began playing Gran Turismo 2. I've never wanted any other BMW except the last model year M3 with the I-6. I never wasted my time reading or daydreaming about any other BMW until I read that the 135i would be coming with a bi-turbo motor pushing 300hp/300lbs-ft tq. Seeing as how I don't know any of the chassis or engine codes I really don't consider myself a fan boy of BMW.

Originally Posted by aki

I guess Motor Trend must be biased against the "Ultimate Driving Machine"? Scans of G37 and 335i. Motor Trend deems G37 the superior vehicle. Start spinning that story.

Again, you're arguing with yourself. Please go back and quote the exact spot where I said that the 335i was better than the G37? I don't care about the 335i or the G37.

I took your words exactly

Originally Posted by aki

Problem is, a 135i will easily cost $30k...

and replied with

Originally Posted by ender

And this is a problem? That's a great price range for a high-end RWD coupe that offers 300hp/300 lbs-ft tq. The $30k price range is right in line with the G35/G37, which are both high-end 300hp+ RWD coupes.

Please show me exactly where I say that the 335i is better than the G37. Having trouble? Let me help you...I didn't write it. You literally made up an argument with yourself.

Note: If some of your comments were directed at e60 and I replied to them then I apologize for the misunderstanding.

[ender]

Here's what all this boils down to; I want a well-made fast RWD coupe. I think the 135i is the best bang for my buck and I will buy it. You, aki, staunchly disagree and that's pretty much the end of the argument. I agree to keep wanting the 135i and you can keep not wanting it.

[e60.deluxe]

problem is now Aki will say that some points, mainly the G37/335i points are aimed at me.

but ill try and answer/recap in anticipation.

Aki starts out with BMW is luxury oriented and unlike Honda dont have good value. i say BMW is more performance oriented than most other cars, and is better value than Honda/Acura in the same class. now *poof* bye bye Honda value and its now BMW is bad value because it isnt as good of a value as an EVO. and also also *poof* luxury or performance orientation, BMW is bad because 1 model (which isnt the 135i) isnt as good as the G37. furthermore, the 135i is gonna have the same engine in a smaller car for probably less money than a G37..considering the G37 is suppoed to be $37,000 and the 335i is $39,000.

what Aki does is constant backpedaling his initial arguments and then makes new, irrelevent arguments with any examples you use. (read: Audi/Lemans, transporter 2, G37 performance etc)

and yes, the G37 performance is irrelevant in my example. the G37 was brought up to show that people acuse BMW of not being as luxurious as the G37. it really doesnt matter what any specs of any of the two cars are. my example was just that the majority of the people acuse BMW of not being luxurious enough and its funny that Aki is doing the opposite. thats all. the G37 could be the fastest car in the world, and the BMW could be the slowest car in the world and my example would be unchanged.

[MBK]

the pricing of the 135i will show us a lot about the company... if they do it for 29K or so then i really can't talk smack about them

[e60.deluxe]

they probably wont do it for 29, or if they do, itll be a MINI S type thing where you really need to tack on about $5grand after markup and needed options.

honestly though, it could be 40 grand and still not be a bad deal. itll probably be on a similar performance level to a Z4M which is 52,000.

i dont really see how it shows up alot about the company.. what if it is 40,000? what does that show us?
lets say it beats other cars that are 40,000, are those bad companies gouging customers. it seems to be that if a BMW model isnt the absolute best value in a class they are no good. that doesnt make alot of sense.

and guess what, it wont be 40,000 because the 335i is 38,900.

i dont look at the TL-S which is pathetic for such a powerful sport luxury car to be FWD, and say i dont like Honda.

[MBK]

remember the supra will be coming out along with the G37, new challenger, new camaro and redisgned mustang and honda's new sport coupe... so they should stay competitive here... toyota commented that they want to undercut everyone on their v6 supra, beating out the Z

PS: it be a wise move for them cuz they'll capture a new market, and as the market matures they'll go after the pricier models... kind of like how scion does for toyota

PSS: it be a wise move for us also lol 30K would be 2 good

[e60.deluxe]

the 135 isnt meant to compete with any of those cars, except probably the 350Z, which is also a pretty good deal i think, but it has some drawbacks also.

[MBK]

lol i c i c

[lexusguy]

looks like a fun car wonder how it would do in sales against the audi a3,acura tsx,lexus is250

[Janizary]

I am hesitant on low-balling MSRP on the 135i, particularly having read the autoblog story (if it is valid). It looks like the 135i will be coming 'standard' with a M-sport package (not M series, but the M-sport package). That alone will probably drive the MSRP up several $K.

I will go as far as saying that as having owned a G35C myself (and unfortunately was one of those with the 'oil consumption' issue...), that it is difficult to swallow the several grand difference for similar power specs. I do agree that there is a certain element of 'snobbery' in the BMW tag over the infiniti tag. Do I feel the price difference is 'worth it'? Well, that is not so much a factor for me, since it is other features, appearance, etc. that I have to weight against the price premium...not just power. If it were just about power specs, then aki is right on the money about price to performance. I think that how 'luxury' is defined is going to vary quite a bit from person to person (lifestyle, prior experience, income bracket, age, and 'expectations'). Sqeaks, rattles, etc. should certainly be quashed in any car that is touted as luxury, however.

Frankly, the hardest and most difficult item for me to swallow is the price premium for the RHT (on the 3 series), however, that is a large part of my attraction to it...

[MBK]

not only are you going to have a G37/Z to compare to but also a toyota and a honda offering, along with the american coupes who will offer a V8 for the same price point.

that's the thing w/ BMW... it is price snobbery; imo making one think that the more $$$ you dish out the more "performance" you are getting; not like a mercedes but at least mercedes admits to what it is