Turbo and CAI

[CaliGuy]

I am planning on getting a GReddy turbo (once they are available) for my Si. My buddy at work (who generally knows what he is talking about when it comes to cars) claims that most turbo setups come with a new intake and header. Is this true? If not would the CAI still fit in the engine bay?

Thanks all!

[2000civic]

im pretty sure that he is correct. im not to educated on turbos but im pretty sure that it comes with a new intake and headers. i have heard people who are planning to turbo their cars say not to bother with a cai cause it will be usless after the turbo anyways, so i assume that your friend is correct.

[NoBottleJustThrottle]

First of all, turbo's are not for beginners...I would HIGHLY recommend reading, reading, reading, and do more reading about turbos and how they work. Then once you think you know enough, keep reading. Go to Honda-Tech.com and start there with all of the Forced Induction forum stuff.
Ok now specifically with your question.
If this is the info that your buddy "that generally knows what he is talking about when it comes to cars" never listen to him again.
A turbo setup should come with plumbing to route the air from the turbo to the intake manifold...but it isnt an intake system. The turbo essentially is the intake system. A turbo doesnt have a header anymore...it has an exhaust manifold that routes to the turbo. So you will be basically throwing out your header, and replacing it with this new manifold that the turbo will bolt to.
A quick run down of how the turbo works can be found with a simple search on something like ask.com. But I will give it to you real quick like.
You have an air filter...that sucks in air with is sucked in toward the turbo. This air goes toward the intake manifold and into the motor. I hope you know how a motor works...so after its done all of its stuff, the exhaust gas is sent through the turbo manifold to the other side of the turbo. The two sides of the turbo are connected with a rod...the exhaust gases spin the fin in the turbo, which in turn spins the rod that its connected to, when spinds the fin on the other side of the turbo, which sucks in more air from the filter, which forces more air into the turbo. MY GOD thats a very rough run through, but you get the idea.
Like I said at the start...read read read. I have been working on cars for quite a number of years, I race cars on tracks, auto cross, worked at a performance shop, test drove more cars than I can count, spent probably too many hours reading on the internet about cars, and mods, and I am still learning about things. I would suggest doing the same. If you dont know exactly how the turbo works, and have respect for it, it will own you. Ive seen entire cars catch on fire because of mis-use. Be careful, and educate yourself.
Good luck

[NoBottleJustThrottle]

Sweet! Double Post!

I am feeling generous...
Read First:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/turbo.htm
Read from here (Honda-Tech.com - Forced Induction Forum):
http://honda-tech.com/zeroforum/16
When you have questions, search here:
http://honda-tech.com/zerosearch

Between these three things (mainly the last two) you will find more than you will ever need to know about turbos. PM me if you have anymore questions.

[CaliGuy]

Originally Posted by NoBottleJustThrottle

First of all, turbo's are not for beginners...I would HIGHLY recommend reading, reading, reading, and do more reading about turbos and how they work. Then once you think you know enough, keep reading. Go to Honda-Tech.com and start there with all of the Forced Induction forum stuff.
Ok now specifically with your question.
If this is the info that your buddy "that generally knows what he is talking about when it comes to cars" never listen to him again.
A turbo setup should come with plumbing to route the air from the turbo to the intake manifold...but it isnt an intake system. The turbo essentially is the intake system. A turbo doesnt have a header anymore...it has an exhaust manifold that routes to the turbo. So you will be basically throwing out your header, and replacing it with this new manifold that the turbo will bolt to.
A quick run down of how the turbo works can be found with a simple search on something like ask.com. But I will give it to you real quick like.
You have an air filter...that sucks in air with is sucked in toward the turbo. This air goes toward the intake manifold and into the motor. I hope you know how a motor works...so after its done all of its stuff, the exhaust gas is sent through the turbo manifold to the other side of the turbo. The two sides of the turbo are connected with a rod...the exhaust gases spin the fin in the turbo, which in turn spins the rod that its connected to, when spinds the fin on the other side of the turbo, which sucks in more air from the filter, which forces more air into the turbo. MY GOD thats a very rough run through, but you get the idea.
Like I said at the start...read read read. I have been working on cars for quite a number of years, I race cars on tracks, auto cross, worked at a performance shop, test drove more cars than I can count, spent probably too many hours reading on the internet about cars, and mods, and I am still learning about things. I would suggest doing the same. If you dont know exactly how the turbo works, and have respect for it, it will own you. Ive seen entire cars catch on fire because of mis-use. Be careful, and educate yourself.
Good luck

Thanks for the info. I understand how turbos work, I've rebuilt an engine (VW ) before, had several mods on my various cars ive owned, and read quite a bit.

Never had a turbo or superchager.

I am planning on buying a GReddy kit once it's out and most likely having it professionally installed (I would only diy if i really thought i could do it, which I doubt)

As I understand it a turbo can work in pretty much any automobile at a given boost. So, as long as not too much boost and a good install it really can't damage the engine.

Again, I appreciate the info and please correct me if I am wrong ( I need the help:) )

Back to my origional question. Can a CAI work with a turbo? If so does it require modification? Is it a good or bad idea?

[NoBottleJustThrottle]

You are mostly right...you can turbocharge just about any car.
Doesnt mean that you can just throw it on like an intake and be happy. I would highly recommend checking your oil level whenever you get gas for your car...check hoses weekly, have the proper gauges in your car so that you can monitor the engine and make sure it is opporating safely, etc.
GReddy normally doesnt sell the intercooler with their kits...they sell it as an extra...GET IT! Throw away their e-manage (if thats what it comes with) and get the Hondata with boost program (when they come out with it) or AEM EMS. A good tune is the difference between a happy experience with your turbo, and a bad one. Well...that and constant maintinance.

[haroman311]

puttin a CAI on a turbo would kinda be retarded. once the cold air hits the hot turbo, it would defeat the purpose of a CAI, most companies provide a short ram. they will come with a header, but its your responsability, usually that is, is to proved a downpipe or otherwise a turboback exhuast

[larryd]

Actually thats not true. While putting a CAI on a turbo is kinda pointless it is not because the cold air wouldn't help.

The longer the intake tube from the turbo to the filter or also the longer the intercooler piping from the turbo to the intercooler and then to the throttle body the laggier the response is. When it comes to turbo's shortest route is the best route.

A CAI would still pick up denser colder air for a turbo but since a majority of turbos are intercooled the air charge temperature wouldn't be significant.

[CivNick]

a rule of thumb that i like to say about boosting a car

if the car doesn't come with boost.. don't boost it.. it was not made for boost.. ive boosted man N/A cars.. and it ends up costing the owner alot more money in the long run because of repairs...

if u want to drive a turbo car.. invest into a turbo car like a sab.. that way u can play with it alot easier and its more friendly with the motor

boost is fun until ur car is on a tow truck .. ive seen it happen way to offten

its a honda man.. N/A is the way to go!.. guys here in kitchener ontario have CRX's and 91 HB doing 12.1 in the QM on NA motors.. and now they are upgrading there frankistien b16/b18 motors to k20 motors

good luck

[Rocklobsta1109]

Originally Posted by CivNick

a rule of thumb that i like to say about boosting a car

if the car doesn't come with boost.. don't boost it.. it was not made for boost.. ive boosted man N/A cars.. and it ends up costing the owner alot more money in the long run because of repairs...

if u want to drive a turbo car.. invest into a turbo car like a sab.. that way u can play with it alot easier and its more friendly with the motor

boost is fun until ur car is on a tow truck .. ive seen it happen way to offten

its a honda man.. N/A is the way to go!.. guys here in kitchener ontario have CRX's and 91 HB doing 12.1 in the QM on NA motors.. and now they are upgrading there frankistien b16/b18 motors to k20 motors

good luck

Boosting NA cars does have its benifits and, if done correctly, isn't a big reliablility issue. High compression, low boost applications can yeild great off boost response with stong bottom end power, just like and NA with the great top end of a turbo. If those frankenstein NA crx's are running 12's what are the boosted crx's running??? Id say at most 12's more likely in the 11's for about the same amount of money it would take to get an NA to the same level.

CAI on turno is pretty much a waste, what cool air does make it to the turbo is just super heated to a pretty constant temp that the turbo it at, HOT. An efficent intercooler setup is where its at.

[TreeFrog]

Originally Posted by CivNick

a rule of thumb that i like to say about boosting a car

if the car doesn't come with boost.. don't boost it.. it was not made for boost.. ive boosted man N/A cars.. and it ends up costing the owner alot more money in the long run because of repairs...

if u want to drive a turbo car.. invest into a turbo car like a sab.. that way u can play with it alot easier and its more friendly with the motor

boost is fun until ur car is on a tow truck .. ive seen it happen way to offten

its a honda man.. N/A is the way to go!.. guys here in kitchener ontario have CRX's and 91 HB doing 12.1 in the QM on NA motors.. and now they are upgrading there frankistien b16/b18 motors to k20 motors

good luck

Agreed. I've see it way too often. no one realizes the supporting mods you need. like the fuel system. I know a girl around here with a turbo integra. i wipe her car away. its because it runs so crappy its not any fast than it was stock. she was running it lean like i warned her about and she fried some piston rings. running lean a a long while is very bad. she had a stock fuel system and no way of tuning or logging. she just slapped a kit on and drove. she thought you adjusted a bov for sound. she had no clue and blew up her engine. i guess its fixed now, but still i've never ever seen that car run well. what a waste of money to get a bov sound.

trust be guys, turbos aren't that big of a deal. been there done that.

[BLU BY U]

Originally Posted by TreeFrog

Agreed. I've see it way too often. no one realizes the supporting mods you need. like the fuel system. I know a girl around here with a turbo integra. i wipe her car away. its because it runs so crappy its not any fast than it was stock. she was running it lean like i warned her about and she fried some piston rings. running lean a a long while is very bad. she had a stock fuel system and no way of tuning or logging. she just slapped a kit on and drove. she thought you adjusted a bov for sound. she had no clue and blew up her engine. i guess its fixed now, but still i've never ever seen that car run well. what a waste of money to get a bov sound.

trust be guys, turbos aren't that big of a deal. been there done that.

+1000 , people don't realize what is needed to run a turbo properly on a non-turbo vehicle. If you are new to cars or boost....start out with a supercharger, the only thing you have to worry about is a pulley and a belt. I consider myself a very knowledgable automotive wise and i havent even considered a turbo for my si. Too much to worry about.

[CivicWithNav]

i was like 16...wanted turbo and started buying turbo and stuff

hahahaha I can laugh it off now but damn i was stupid back then thinking I can make a turbo kit from a scratch....

now i'm like screw the turbos... I'll buy one that came with it if i really wanted to. plus my friends got em so i've had plenty of explerience with 1.8Ts and 2.7T's so i know how they feel.

but if you are getting a "KIT", it should be okay. they generally come with EVERYTHING you need and nothing more/less. as long as someone with great knowledge installs the kit and you don't touch anything, car should run as it was designed(with the turbo)

[BLU BY U]

i guess basically what we are all saying is that if you have to ask if you can use your CAI with a turbo, you should stay away from forced induction in general.

[CivNick]

i had a good 3500 in new parts for a turbo setup for my sunfire (not installed).. and that was still not enough needed about twice that.. plus tunning to make it run right and fast


there is a guy in my town that has a 00 SiR S/C and that thing runs Slower in the QM than stock.. and its not the driver.. its the car... its a highway car..

truth be told a CAI should only get u like 4WHP on a good day if that

[JnLFG2]

Has anyone ever actually taken any measurements to see if a CAI setup helps the turbo in running at least a little cooler. I'm wondering if the cooler air might help keep the turbo a little cooler, while the intercooler would cool the air being forced into the engine. The short ram intake is definately a better route for throttle responce when adding a turbo... but it's just a thought I had and am wondering if anyone knows.

[CivNick]

Originally Posted by JnLFG2

Has anyone ever actually taken any measurements to see if a CAI setup helps the turbo in running at least a little cooler. I'm wondering if the cooler air might help keep the turbo a little cooler, while the intercooler would cool the air being forced into the engine. The short ram intake is definately a better route for throttle responce when adding a turbo... but it's just a thought I had and am wondering if anyone knows.

have u ever seen under a hood of a turbo car???

there is no room for one.. and if there is it really is pointless, the IC piping takes up alot of space.. and depends on the EM weather it being an equal length one or log style, u can't fit to much under that hood anymore

for every 90 degree in turbo piping (charge pipe) ussaly equals to 3' of straight pipe

[MastaShake06si]

i agree completely with what everyone has said up till the point of if its na leave it na thats all fine and dandy but if you want to boost it boost it just don't do it yourself as from the sounds of it you are fairly novice and turbo kits can be a pain in the ass to install and usually require further tuning than what is sent with the kit. Most kits include an ecu with a base map to start further tuning from so like i said its a fine idea just have someone familiar with this stuff do it. oh and like someone else said if you want something easy and reliable but without the topend charge of a turbo go supercharger those are far easier to install and are less time and money consuming

[tcel127]

a stock k20z3 swapped into a stripped '92 hatch is a mid 12 second car. the k20 motor is a very capable NA powerplant. if you are new to forcd induction, try NA first. these motors respond much better to na bolt on mods than previous honda blocks (H,D,B,F). no tuning headaches, just get a hondata reflash and bolt on some goodies, maybe a set of slicks and pull 13's at the strip all day than go hit the bars at night. shit i cant wait for some 12.5:1 pistons and other firged goodies. and some high output cams. i gotta stop talking before i go for a late night run

[BLU BY U]

Originally Posted by tcel127

a stock k20z3 swapped into a stripped '92 hatch is a mid 12 second car. the k20 motor is a very capable NA powerplant. if you are new to forcd induction, try NA first. these motors respond much better to na bolt on mods than previous honda blocks (H,D,B,F). no tuning headaches, just get a hondata reflash and bolt on some goodies, maybe a set of slicks and pull 13's at the strip all day than go hit the bars at night. shit i cant wait for some 12.5:1 pistons and other firged goodies. and some high output cams. i gotta stop talking before i go for a late night run

good point about the cams....should make the z3 quite the animal.