Hondata Reflash & Greddy E-Manage Ultimate Together

chilipepper · 08-08-2007, 01:14 AM

I don't get it. I've seen the posts that say if you get the Greddy turbo kit for a '06+ Civic Si and you already have the Hondata I/H Reflash, then you have to have your ECU flashed back to stock. I understand to some degree, but I don't believe the real answer is that simple.

I understand that Greddy built their base tuning for their kit on the stock ECU. And, yes, if you use the base tuning from Greddy, then you should have a stock ECU and not the Hondata Reflash.

However, just suppose that Honda had produced the '06 Si with a less restrictive intake and had programmed the stock ECU exactly as Hondata did with the Reflash. Does that mean that Greddy would not be able to produce a turbo kit for the Si?? No. They'd simply have a different base tune that took into account the ECU from Honda.

Now, why can't I do the same thing? Suppose I was the best tuner in the world (or more likely, I hired a great tuner). Why can't that tuner toss the Greddy base tune and create a tune from scratch that works with the Hondata Reflash? Does that make sense? I just don't believe that you can't run the Greddy turbo and the Hondata Reflash together, as long as you toss the Greddy tune and build you own in the E-Manage from scratch?

HONDACARE · 08-08-2007, 02:45 AM

you need to find someone who can tune drive by wire first

***GalaxyGreySi*** · 08-08-2007, 02:57 AM

Chuck, now that I think about it, that makes total sense. In fact, it seems to me that this would be the BEST setup EVER. If you had the reflash and a GOOD tune on the E-Manage, I bet you'd have one killer ride. I wouldn't run the two simultaneously without a tune, but since the reflash doesn't advance timing, why not do both??? Especially since the reflash lowers VTEC to 4500 RPM at WOT, and you're already at full boost by then. You'd run a serious risk of running lean without a tune, but WITH one, that might be pretty damn sick. I'm all for it. Be our guinnea pig Chuck!!

chilipepper · 08-08-2007, 09:04 AM

Thanks, Phil! I've found a local guy who can either install the Greddy kit and tune it from scratch, or build a custom turbo and tune it with the e-Manage Ultimate, but I'm still trying to get all my ducks in a row. It may still be a bit before I can move forward, but this is what I'm think of doing - especially if I go for the custom kit (which would give me more whp for the same money). I just want to make sure that my thinking about the Reflash and E-Manage makes sense...

chilipepper · 08-08-2007, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HONDACARE

you need to find someone who can tune drive by wire first

Thanks, HondaCare, but I don't fully understand. I know what drive by wire is - I build real-time control systems for a living, but I don't understand what you mean. Are you saying there's no one at all that could do the tuning because of a lack of tools? Or something else. Please explain for me. Thanks!

HONDACARE · 08-08-2007, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chilipepper

Thanks, HondaCare, but I don't fully understand. I know what drive by wire is - I build real-time control systems for a living, but I don't understand what you mean. Are you saying there's no one at all that could do the tuning because of a lack of tools? Or something else. Please explain for me. Thanks!

If you have figured out an EMS to tune this car then you are god to 10,000 people on this site. please let the secret out

chilipepper · 08-08-2007, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HONDACARE

If you have figured out an EMS to tune this car then you are god to 10,000 people on this site. please let the secret out

Well, no. Unless something new has been released recently, we all know that there is not a standalone EMS for us yet.

But, I don't see that a standalone EMS is required to get a good tune, either. Greddy obviously developed a tune that is good enough to sell as a product. My point, on my original post, is simply, why can't a good tuner simply develop a new, yet different, tune for the e-Manage Ultimate piggyback EMS that works with the Hondata I/H ECU Reflash and the Greddy turbo kit by throwing away the Greddy base tune for the stock ECU and starting from scratch? This seems very logical to me. Granted, it assumes that you have a tuner that is very good with the e-Manage Ultimate product, but it certainly seems possible.

I do realize that a good standalone EMS would have the potential to provide a better tune than the e-Manage Ultimate, but it seems to me that the e-Manage should work and do a good job.

Edit: Spell check...

Cuban Si · 08-08-2007, 11:45 AM

ive thought about that as well, +3 between chuck and galaxy

HONDACARE · 08-08-2007, 11:48 AM

you keep throwing me off by repeatedly saying tune. the could develop a new flash, but i was under the impression that you could only be so agressive with these flashes and the factory ecu will blow out most piggyback devices

chilipepper · 08-08-2007, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HONDACARE

you keep throwing me off by repeatedly saying tune. the could develop a new flash, but i was under the impression that you could only be so agressive with these flashes and the factory ecu will blow out most piggyback devices

Sorry, maybe I'm using the term "tune" incorrectly, but there are parameters stored in the e-Manage EMS. I'm not a tuner, so I don't really know what all is there, but when I say "tune", I'm referring to the set of all these parameters, data values, configuration settings, fuel maps, etc. Greddy provides a "base tune" with their kit. I believe you can modify their "base tune" to improve the performance of the e-Manage and your engine, but changing these parameters may require clearing all the parameters, settings, etc. and starting from scratch in order to do so. I'm not certain about this. What I do know is that you can start from scratch and develop your own "tune" if you have the ability (or the funds to pay someone else to do it).

Also, I haven't heard of the stock ECU "blowing out" any piggyback EMS devices. Where did you see this?

***Highrev1*** · 08-08-2007, 12:47 PM

In theory you could use the V-manage and E-manage, and have quite a bit of control over the si's ECM. Have a tuner do a complete custom setup...

chilipepper · 08-08-2007, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Highrev1

In theory you could use the V-manage and E-manage, and have quite a bit of control over the si's ECM. Have a tuner do a complete custom setup...

Is RedShift only planning to use Hondata Reflashes for tuning, or might there be other choices down the road (such as this)? I'm still torn between turbo and sc...

Edit: Never mind. I just saw your post on the RedShift thread...

xcellr8n · 08-08-2007, 02:10 PM

The only problem you may have with the reflash and boost are the cam angles have been altered from hondata for N/A motor. You may not get as good of a gain under boost with more overlap but the extra rpms and lower vtec should be helpful.

Tim

HONDACARE · 08-08-2007, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chilipepper

Sorry, maybe I'm using the term "tune" incorrectly, but there are parameters stored in the e-Manage EMS. I'm not a tuner, so I don't really know what all is there, but when I say "tune", I'm referring to the set of all these parameters, data values, configuration settings, fuel maps, etc. Greddy provides a "base tune" with their kit. I believe you can modify their "base tune" to improve the performance of the e-Manage and your engine, but changing these parameters may require clearing all the parameters, settings, etc. and starting from scratch in order to do so. I'm not certain about this. What I do know is that you can start from scratch and develop your own "tune" if you have the ability (or the funds to pay someone else to do it).

Also, I haven't heard of the stock ECU "blowing out" any piggyback EMS devices. Where did you see this?

a few people have tried the apexi sfac and the ecu overrides it

Mr Bigs · 08-08-2007, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HONDACARE

a few people have tried the apexi sfac and the ecu overrides it

The same will happen with almost any piggyback. The ecm wants to run the show.

blueroadster · 08-08-2007, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Bigs

The same will happen with almost any piggyback. The ecm wants to run the show.

Yup.

chilipepper · 08-08-2007, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Bigs

The same will happen with almost any piggyback. The ecm wants to run the show.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueroadster

Yup.

It's true that the ecm wants to runs the show, but the one who really runs the show is the one whose output signal is actually connected to the control devices. The ecm can generate output signals, but if those signals do not make it to the control device (e.g., injectors, timing, spark ignition, etc.), then the ecm really isn't in control.

What I don't know (or have any knowledge of), is when you add e-Manage or v-Manage, do these devices insert themselves in-between the ecm's output and the control device? Or, do these simply provide modified input signals to the ecm in order to manipulate the ecm's output? Or both?

blueroadster · 08-08-2007, 06:29 PM

I'll try to explain in simpler terms. Say for example the flow rate of fuel going through the injectors and controlled by the ECM is rated at a flow rate of 1 through 5, where 5 would be the the most amount of fuel dumped.

Now lets say that the ECM regulates the fuel at a flow rate of 3.

You decide to add more fuel via a piggy-back fuel controller to increase the flow rate one more number higher (i.e., to 4) to make it run more rich.

What will happen is that the ECM would send a flow rate of 3, the piggy-back would add one number to make it 4, but when the ECM senses that the engine is running rich, then it will self-correct and bring the resulting number back to 3 (i.e., the ECM would send a flow rate of 2 and the piggy-back fuel controller would increase it to 3 which is exactly what the ECM wanted in the first place even without the fuel controller).

There is a lot more to it than that, but hope the above example makes sense.

chilipepper · 08-08-2007, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueroadster

I'll try to explain in simpler terms. Say for example the flow rate of fuel going through the injectors and controlled by the ECM is rated at a flow rate of 1 through 5, where 5 would be the the most amount of fuel dumped.

Now lets say that the ECM regulates the fuel at a flow rate of 3.

You decide to add more fuel via a piggy-back fuel controller to increase the flow rate one more number higher (i.e., to 4) to make it run more rich.

What will happen is that the ECM would send a flow rate of 3, the piggy-back would add one number to make it 4, but when the ECM senses that the engine is running rich, then it will self-correct and bring the resulting number back to 3 (i.e., the ECM would send a flow rate of 2 and the piggy-back fuel controller would increase it to 3 which is exactly what the ECM wanted in the first place even without the fuel controller).

There is a lot more to it than that, but hope the above example makes sense.

Thanks, blue, and I am trying to learn how these work with our engine.

In a real world example, the piggyback wouldn't add 1 to make the engine run rich, it would add 1 to keep it from running lean, right? Then, the ecm would sense that the engine is running within limits (because it really needed more fuel to be correct), and the ecm would continue to generate an output of 3 with the piggyback adding 1 to get to a constant 4. This would continue until the fuel requirements change again. Does that make sense, or am I still missing something?

blueroadster · 08-08-2007, 07:07 PM

What I am trying to say is that the ECM is fed data from various sensors in order for it to calculate the running state of the engine. It has a MAF, MAP, barometric pressure sensor, temperature sensor, O2 sensor, etc. All of these work in conjuction in some form or fashion enabling the ECM to calculate data in realtime and to autocorrect when running in closed loop faster than you would ever be able to notice. For example, if you had a datalogger and external fuel pressure regulator, you would never see a difference in the AFRs when quickly changing the fuel pressure from say 30 to 60 PSI. On the datalog file, you would not even see a blip of a change in the AFR.

The ECM can auto compensate for a number of things based upon the data that it is fed from the various sensors. The only thing that has yet to be said is the range extent for timing and other things that the ECM can deal with verses what it cannot deal with. Know what I mean?

08-08-2007, 01:14 AM	#1 (permalink)
chilipepper Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Houston, TX Age: 49 Posts: 394 Chuck iTrader: 1 / 100%	Hondata Reflash & Greddy E-Manage Ultimate Together I don't get it. I've seen the posts that say if you get the Greddy turbo kit for a '06+ Civic Si and you already have the Hondata I/H Reflash, then you have to have your ECU flashed back to stock. I understand to some degree, but I don't believe the real answer is that simple. I understand that Greddy built their base tuning for their kit on the stock ECU. And, yes, if you use the base tuning from Greddy, then you should have a stock ECU and not the Hondata Reflash. However, just suppose that Honda had produced the '06 Si with a less restrictive intake and had programmed the stock ECU exactly as Hondata did with the Reflash. Does that mean that Greddy would not be able to produce a turbo kit for the Si?? No. They'd simply have a different base tune that took into account the ECU from Honda. Now, why can't I do the same thing? Suppose I was the best tuner in the world (or more likely, I hired a great tuner). Why can't that tuner toss the Greddy base tune and create a tune from scratch that works with the Hondata Reflash? Does that make sense? I just don't believe that you can't run the Greddy turbo and the Hondata Reflash together, as long as you toss the Greddy tune and build you own in the E-Manage from scratch?

08-08-2007, 02:57 AM	#3 (permalink)
*GalaxyGreySi* 280whp, 219tq, GReddy FTW Join Date: May 2006 Location: Albuquerque, NM Age: 24 Posts: 4,123 Phil iTrader: 1 / 100%	Chuck, now that I think about it, that makes total sense. In fact, it seems to me that this would be the BEST setup EVER. If you had the reflash and a GOOD tune on the E-Manage, I bet you'd have one killer ride. I wouldn't run the two simultaneously without a tune, but since the reflash doesn't advance timing, why not do both??? Especially since the reflash lowers VTEC to 4500 RPM at WOT, and you're already at full boost by then. You'd run a serious risk of running lean without a tune, but WITH one, that might be pretty damn sick. I'm all for it. Be our guinnea pig Chuck!! __________________ If you must whine about my Avatar, do it in this thread: http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35167

08-08-2007, 12:47 PM	#11 (permalink)
*Highrev1* 8thcivic Sponsor Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 3,681 iTrader: 1 / 100%	In theory you could use the V-manage and E-manage, and have quite a bit of control over the si's ECM. Have a tuner do a complete custom setup... __________________ BUY MY CIVIC

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08-08-2007, 02:45 AM	#2 (permalink)
HONDACARE Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Phoenix Age: 27 Posts: 1,561 Gabe iTrader: 10 / 100%	you need to find someone who can tune drive by wire first

08-08-2007, 09:04 AM	#4 (permalink)
chilipepper Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Houston, TX Age: 49 Posts: 394 Chuck iTrader: 1 / 100%	Thanks, Phil! I've found a local guy who can either install the Greddy kit and tune it from scratch, or build a custom turbo and tune it with the e-Manage Ultimate, but I'm still trying to get all my ducks in a row. It may still be a bit before I can move forward, but this is what I'm think of doing - especially if I go for the custom kit (which would give me more whp for the same money). I just want to make sure that my thinking about the Reflash and E-Manage makes sense...

08-08-2007, 11:45 AM	#8 (permalink)
Cuban Si Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Melbourne, Fl Posts: 238 iTrader: 0 / 0%	ive thought about that as well, +3 between chuck and galaxy

08-08-2007, 11:48 AM	#9 (permalink)
HONDACARE Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Phoenix Age: 27 Posts: 1,561 Gabe iTrader: 10 / 100%	you keep throwing me off by repeatedly saying tune. the could develop a new flash, but i was under the impression that you could only be so agressive with these flashes and the factory ecu will blow out most piggyback devices

08-08-2007, 02:10 PM	#13 (permalink)
xcellr8n Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: N.C. Posts: 46 iTrader: 0 / 0%	The only problem you may have with the reflash and boost are the cam angles have been altered from hondata for N/A motor. You may not get as good of a gain under boost with more overlap but the extra rpms and lower vtec should be helpful. Tim

08-08-2007, 06:29 PM	#18 (permalink)
blueroadster Senior Member Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Maryland Posts: 3,581 iTrader: 7 / 100%	I'll try to explain in simpler terms. Say for example the flow rate of fuel going through the injectors and controlled by the ECM is rated at a flow rate of 1 through 5, where 5 would be the the most amount of fuel dumped. Now lets say that the ECM regulates the fuel at a flow rate of 3. You decide to add more fuel via a piggy-back fuel controller to increase the flow rate one more number higher (i.e., to 4) to make it run more rich. What will happen is that the ECM would send a flow rate of 3, the piggy-back would add one number to make it 4, but when the ECM senses that the engine is running rich, then it will self-correct and bring the resulting number back to 3 (i.e., the ECM would send a flow rate of 2 and the piggy-back fuel controller would increase it to 3 which is exactly what the ECM wanted in the first place even without the fuel controller). There is a lot more to it than that, but hope the above example makes sense.

08-08-2007, 07:07 PM	#20 (permalink)
blueroadster Senior Member Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Maryland Posts: 3,581 iTrader: 7 / 100%	What I am trying to say is that the ECM is fed data from various sensors in order for it to calculate the running state of the engine. It has a MAF, MAP, barometric pressure sensor, temperature sensor, O2 sensor, etc. All of these work in conjuction in some form or fashion enabling the ECM to calculate data in realtime and to autocorrect when running in closed loop faster than you would ever be able to notice. For example, if you had a datalogger and external fuel pressure regulator, you would never see a difference in the AFRs when quickly changing the fuel pressure from say 30 to 60 PSI. On the datalog file, you would not even see a blip of a change in the AFR. The ECM can auto compensate for a number of things based upon the data that it is fed from the various sensors. The only thing that has yet to be said is the range extent for timing and other things that the ECM can deal with verses what it cannot deal with. Know what I mean?