Fuel Injector Chat and Discussion

[mucter]

Post up all your questions/data/experiences with different fuel injectors on our car.

Regarding Injector Dynamics injectors:

Originally Posted by soxfan143

The ID 1000s only flow 880cc at 53psi. Stock Si fuel pressure. They flow close to 1000cc at 65psi. The 750s flow about 600cc at 53psi. So That's what I'm told. So the 1000s are perfect for someone that is running the stock fuel pressure.

Originally Posted by nycclaye

according to their website, you don't have to have any clips for the K Series, it's perfect fit for the stock sizing.

Injector Dynamics 1000cc Saturated injector

We have the necessary adaptors and pieces to make these injectors fit almost any application
ALL ACCESSORIES ARE INCLUDED WITH EACH SET OF INJECTORS, INCLUDING THE INJECTOR CLIPS
Honda applications - B series, H series, K series, F series, D series, NSX
Mitsubishi EVO and all 4G63
Toyota Supra
Subaru WRX
Nissan RB and SR with top feed
Nissan VQ
Hayabusa
Kawasaki ZX14
RX7 with top feed rails
Almost any domestic application
If you're unsure if these will work in your application, give us a call and we'll help you figure out what it will take
These are a 48mm long body, shorter than normal injectors. The adaptor tops make them "normal" 60mm length and adapt them to 11mm or 14mm top orings. The K series guys can run the injectors with no adaptors at all and they are the same length as the OEM rsx injectors so no spacers needed on the rail.
These have a droplet size comparable to a 600cc Siemens injector and way better spray pattern and atomization than any other 1000cc injector on the market. The proper battery comp values are also provided with each set so you can set it up in your computer and have consistent a/f ratios as battery voltage fluctuates. Most other injectors don't offer that information at anything other than 1 voltage level. Price is per injector and includes the adaptor for the top and an injector clip with pins Please put your engine type in the comments section when purchasing

Originally Posted by Supa Ninja

You'll still have to solder in the different clips. I had to use some thick washers between my rail and manifold, but not the stock spacers.

Originally Posted by BlueSi4

So that means I will end up having to buy the clips for the ID's, correct?

Originally Posted by Alphi

Yes, you can get the Bosch PnP adapter.

Originally Posted by Supa Ninja

You can put me in the awesome results catagory with the ID's. My car has been grounded for the last couple of days(has absolutely nothing to do with drivetrain/powertrain) but before I got the boost to hold to redline i was at 61% duty cycle at 14.5 psi. I never imagined injectors could make such a huge difference on my car. Shoot I gained 4 psi up top just from the injectors and the different base map i'm using(that is all I changed), thats insane.

My car should be back on the road, I'll get another 3rd gear pull at a solid 20psi. Street tuning them was super easy (probally because of my return setup).

Regarding RC Injectors:

Originally Posted by Hondata

All RC injectors are tested at 43.5 psi. In our injector calibrations the we needed to remove 15% fuel from the 750cc calibration to run the ID 1000cc injectors at the same air fuel ratio. That would place the ID1000 injectors at approximately 860cc as compared to the RC 750s. (we did not flow test these injectors)

Originally Posted by soxfan143

Don't buy RC injectors. They are terrible. If you're going to buy injectors just get the ID 1000s. They are NOT too big. Your car will run SOOO much better and you will have extremely linear fuel delivery to each cylinder. The RC injectors are a 20 year old design that just can't keep up anymore. They are awful. You want the smallest pulse you can get from your injectors to keep your fuel system from having reversion from sudden pressure drop from too long of a pulse. Trust me, your tuner will love you with the ID 1000s.

Regarding Fuel return systems:

Returnless Fuel Systems - what is the limit?

DIY: Supa Ninja fuel return setup with a side of F*** OPEC!!!!

http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/force...-pump-diy.html

Helpful posts about fuel injector issues:

Upgraded injectors + cold start = rev hang

Injector Latency explained


The evolution of Bosch injectors



Image supplied courtesy of Paul@Yawpower (Injector Dynamics)

The RC's, while they look similar to the Bosch injectors above that were made in 76, are actually made from a Lucas design with a very different design internally. That said, they're still a similarly dated design that's very in-efficient in comparison to the technology available today. (Thanks to Paul Yaw for b1tch slapping me and correcting me on this)

It's unfortunate that RC haven't updated their products to include the benefits provided in the newer designs. ID knows this and bases their injectors off the newest, most efficient injector technology.

Originally Posted by mucter

I recently decided that I'd had enough of being worried about fuel on my car. I simultaneously went about getting a Walbro 255lph HP pump, CT-e FPR crushing tool and Injector Dynamics 1000cc injectors.

Doug@Hondata noticed I was about to install all of this and stopped me before I did the install. He asked me to run a series of tests to see how each mod increased my fuel pressure and the resultant duty cycle at WOT. He sent me his Honda fuel pressure tester and asked me to test each mod with a 3rd gear pull, monitoring the fuel pressure at the tank outlet and the fuel rail.

I have to give a shout out to my buddy Adam for helping get this done. He had to hold the fuel pressure gauge routed through the window of the car. Trying to hold on and look at the resultant pressure while we're hurtling through the dark rainy Oregon weather...LOL

When I started the test, I had the stock fuel pump, stock un-crushed FPR and RC 550cc injectors. We started by measuring the output of the stock fuel pump. Some of the mods showed a variance in pressure from idle to cruise. Of course since the stock system is returnless, there is a dramatic pressure drop under boost. The resultant psi under boost will be signified by "WOT".

Stock fuel pump, stock FPR, RC 550cc Injectors
Duty Cycle - 100% @ 10.1psi/8000rpm

Fuel Pressure
At tank outlet:
- Idle & cruise: 54.5psi
- WOT: 49psi

At fuel rail:
- Idle & cruise: 52psi
- WOT: 43psi

Walbro 255lph HP Fuel Pump, stock FPR, RC 550cc Injectors
Duty Cycle - 98% @ 10.1psi/8000rpm

Fuel Pressure
At tank outlet:
- Idle: 58psi
- Cruise: 56psi
- WOT: 50psi

At fuel rail:
- Idle & Cruise: 56psi
- WOT: 45.5psi

Walbro 255lph HP Fuel Pump, stock FPR, Injector Dynamics 1000cc injectors
Duty Cycle - 62% @ 10.1psi/8000 rpm

Fuel Pressure
At tank outlet:
- Idle & Cruise: 56psi
- WOT: 51psi

At fuel rail:
- Idle: 56psi
- Cruise: 54psi
- WOT: 44psi

Walbro 255lph HP Fuel Pump, CT-e Crushed FPR, Injector Dynamics 1000cc injectors
Duty Cycle - 53% @ 10.7psi/8000 rpm

Fuel Pressure
At tank outlet:
- Idle & Cruise: 72psi
- WOT: 64psi

At fuel rail:
- Idle & Cruise: 70psi
- WOT: 58psi

[BlueSi4]

Yes, thank you! Sorry about getting the other thread out of topic.

[BlueSi4]

Originally Posted by soxfan143

The ID 1000s only flow 880cc at 53psi. Stock Si fuel pressure. They flow close to 1000cc at 65psi. The 750s flow about 600cc at 53psi. So That's what I'm told. So the 1000s are perfect for someone that is running the stock fuel pressure.

Originally Posted by Hondata

All RC injectors are tested at 43.5 psi. In our injector calibrations the we needed to remove 15% fuel from the 750cc calibration to run the ID 1000cc injectors at the same air fuel ratio. That would place the ID1000 injectors at approximately 860cc as compared to the RC 750s. (we did not flow test these injectors)

Can you guys explain this in a way that I can understand, I'm not up to par with the fuel injector numbers and such.

Does that mean that the ID1000 are better than the RC750 to use with the Greddy kit and the calibrations that you (Hondata) have?

[soxfan143]

Originally Posted by BlueSi4

Can you guys explain this in a way that I can understand, I'm not up to par with the fuel injector numbers and such.

Does that mean that the ID1000 are better than the RC750 to use with the Greddy kit and the calibrations that you (Hondata) have?

They are just better than the RC injectors in every way. It's not about what's better to use with a specific map. If you are going to get tuned use the best injectors you can. The best part of the ID injectors is the fact that they are matched based on actual flow AND dead times. This will insure that each cylinder is getting almost an exact amount of fuel.

[BlueSi4]

Ok. Now my question is, why use such bigger injectors with such a small turbo? At whatever power/psi I'm making now, the highest I've seen the duty cycle on the 550's is around 85%. Now, I'm assuming that once I get everything straightened out the 550's will be pretty much at their limit. So, if I do get the ID1000's, then I'm basically doubling the injector size, which should put the duty cycle around 50-60%, would that be correct/safe to assume? Then, on top of that, if down the road, I add a fuel return system, then the duty cycle should be even lower, correct?

I understand using ID1000's on the Full-Race kits, but with a Greddy? I'm just trying to understand things a little better, because I just think the ID1000 are just too big for the Greddy kit, maybe even unnecessary?

[mucter]

What Hondata was eluding to is that if you're still running a stock FPR, the ID1000's will only flow at 880cc. So you're not doubling the flow rate like you thought. You're actually giving yourself just the right amount of head room for future upgrades.

Also, Injector Dynamics includes the proper latency/opening time values for our car with the injectors. This results in better closed loop operation, smoother idle, and better fuel economy. Couple that with the AWESOME spray pattern/atomization of the ID's and you have a total win.

If you run out of injector with the ID's they also respond really well to increased fuel pressure, so you can always crush the FPR or add a return and raise the pressure to get more flow later.

[Supa Ninja]

The only negative with running huge injectors is the crappy idle they cause, the ID1000's don't have that problem they idle fantastic. So now you will have plenty of overhead and just a silk smooth idle and everything inbetween.

BTW you don't want duty cycles above 80%. A fuel return will lower the duty cycle since it boost matches the fuel pressure.

[BlueSi4]

Originally Posted by mucter

What Hondata was eluding to is that if you're still running a stock FPR, the ID1000's will only flow at 880cc. So you're not doubling the flow rate like you thought. You're actually giving yourself just the right amount of head room for future upgrades.

Also, Injector Dynamics includes the proper latency/opening time values for our car with the injectors. This results in better closed loop operation, smoother idle, and better fuel economy. Couple that with the AWESOME spray pattern/atomization of the ID's and you have a total win.

If you run out of injector with the ID's they also respond really well to increased fuel pressure, so you can always crush the FPR or add a return and raise the pressure to get more flow later.

Originally Posted by Supa Ninja

The only negative with running huge injectors is the crappy idle they cause, the ID1000's don't have that problem they idle fantastic. So now you will have plenty of overhead and just a silk smooth idle and everything inbetween.

BTW you don't want duty cycles above 80%. A fuel return will lower the duty cycle since it boost matches the fuel pressure.

OK, now that's starting to make more sense. Thanks for putting it in easier terms for me to understand

I hate when I know I've read about things but I'm still clueless, and for some reason, the whole injector/fuel is a hard topic for me to understand.

[Alphi]

Originally Posted by BlueSi4

OK, now that's starting to make more sense. Thanks for putting it in easier terms for me to understand

I hate when I know I've read about things but I'm still clueless, and for some reason, the whole injector/fuel is a hard topic for me to understand.

Your not alone on that one bro. I feel the same when it comes to fuel talk. It's easy to get the basics but when it comes down to getting further into it and understanding the terminology, I'll admit...I get a bit confused...lol.

Thanks guys for clarifying that.

[mucter]

Nick, you received your ID1000's... did they come with a datasheet for the latency? Can you share that info with everyone? I think it'd be interesting to look at/discuss.

[Supa Ninja]

ya i got but not on me

[Str8JDM]

how do they rate fuel injectors? by hp? by psi? im lost on that part. like how do i go about chosing the right injector for me...i know everybody is on the ID bandwagen because they are the best, buy theres other sizes/ brands out there for a reason...

i dont know if im making sense, but say i buy ID 750s. what is the factor that is going to max the duty on them and make me have to upgrade to the 1000s?

[Str8JDM]

for example, theres a couple of people running the precision 680cc injectors with their SRT kits...one kid makes 375whp at 10psi maxed out injector duty, another kid makes 407whp at 12psi with still alittle room left on duty, then you have that one custom build where the kid is making 460whp at 11psi or so with 80% duty on 680s

my head spins

[BlueSi4]

Originally Posted by Str8JDM

for example, theres a couple of people running the precision 680cc injectors with their SRT kits...one kid makes 375whp at 10psi maxed out injector duty, another kid makes 407whp at 12psi with still alittle room left on duty, then you have that one custom build where the kid is making 460whp at 11psi or so with 80% duty on 680s

my head spins

You have to find out if they have any other mods (crushed FPR, different fuel pump, fuel return system, etc)

But yes, it's confusing

[Str8JDM]

Originally Posted by BlueSi4

You have to find out if they have any other mods (crushed FPR, different fuel pump, fuel return system, etc)

But yes, it's confusing

ya, but it not like we talking 10-15whp differences...it goes from 375whp 100% duty to 460whp at 80% duty, 100% duty can put him at 475whp probably and thats a 100whp difference...whats the factor?

[mucter]

Oriol is correct, differences in how the fuel system is setup make a MASSIVE difference in flow.

A 680cc injector on a returnless system (stock) and stock FPR will flow ~10% less than one with a crushed FPR. A 680cc injector with a full on return system will feasibly flow 20%+ more than either of those depending on the fuel pressure set on the FPR.

So you have to pay attention to other parts of the fuel system when people start talking about what power they've made with which injectors. It makes a big difference and can definitely lead to confusion if you don't understand how the different parts work together.

[mucter]

^^^ OP updated with a comparison of the different injector styles over the last 30 years.

[nycclaye]

fyi.... i'm allowing 8thcivic to take away from my family time..


back to topic...

I just spoke to Mike from T1 Race tonight. I ordered my stuff this am, and he called to tell me they are out of stock of the ID1000cc's til thursday. I'm on the list of the first batch to go out.

[mucter]

Tony@T1R is going to try to get on here tomorrow and clarify a few things for us on this topic.

[Supa Ninja]

Wow, they must be selling like hot cakes.