Does Nitrous ruin your engine?

[2RotorMotor]

Originally Posted by Tom1222

True, Nitrous Oxide is not a Fuel at all. It simply introduces a way of adding more Oxygen in order to allow more fuel to be burned at a higher rate.
The Engergy comes from the fuel not the Nitrous. This engergy accellerated by the Nitrous procudes tremendous amount of addtional heat or force to move those cylinders up and down more quickly. If the fuel mixture and the timing are sufficiently set and retarded at the time of this delivery then there is nothing to worry about but if the engine's timing is too high or there is not enough fuel delivered to the pistons then you have a "Lean" condition which causes detonation which is like hitting your cylinders with a sledghammer. Over time this will cause broken rods or even holes burned into the top of the cylinders. Especially if you don't have forged internals.
Now with a mild set up of 55 or 65 shot of Nitrous this is not as common as with a 100 + shot of Nitrous on a car that isn't really set up for Nitrous.

Check out this webpage. It has some Great info and tips about using Nitrous Oxide. Very imformative:
http://www.aircooled.net/gnrlsite/re.../n2otheory.htm

N20 actually helps prevent detanotion because of the cold nature of the gas... So you would really have to have a big shot + not enough fuel+too much timing, in order to produce severe damage to your motor...

[Tom1222]

Originally Posted by 2RotorMotor

N20 actually helps prevent detanotion because of the cold nature of the gas... So you would really have to have a big shot + not enough fuel+too much timing, in order to produce severe damage to your motor...

The gas might be cold but when it mixes with the fuel and ignites it makes for a hell of a reaction and creates a lot of HEAT. And in turn creates more cylinder pressure like BOOST.

[augydog]

by Hib Halverson
copyright 1997 Shark Communications
Used by permission.


Nitrous oxide injection is probably one of the most misunderstood modifications in our hobby.
Nitrous oxide is an oxygen bearing compound. Its chemical designator is N2O, so we know each nitrous oxygen molecule has two nitrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Nitrous oxide is sometimes incorrectly known as "NOS". That is an acronym for the company, Nitrous Oxide Systems, which is the largest marketer of nitrous oxide injections system for automotive use.

Injection of nitrous oxide into the combustion chambers of an internal combustion engine as a way to increase power output was discovered by the German air craft industry early in the Second World War. Thousands of German figher and reconassance aircraft were equipped with the so-called "GM-1" system which added nitrous oxide to the intake charge to compensate for reduced air density and less oxygen high altitude. The British Royal Air Force also used aircraft engines with performance enhanced by nitrous oxide. Interestingly, there was no use of nitrous oxide injection by the American military air forces other than very limited experimental use. It is interesting to ask oneself that, if nitrous oxide injection was so dangerous to an engine's reliability, why would so many airplanes have used it?

In this country during 1950s the famed stock car racer Smokey Yunick rediscoverd nitrous oxide injection as one of his many schemes for winning races until discovered and outlawed by NASCAR. Neverthesless, there have been several nitrous oxide cheating scandals in NASCAR over the years and it is probably still used today by the slowest of backmarkers. In the late-70s/early-80s nitrous oxide was "rediscovered" by drag racers and hot rodders.

Today nitrous oxide injection, like many other modifications such as more aggressive camshafts, bigger carburetors, higher compression ratios, more free flowing intake and exhaust systems, can be a pracitical way to more horsepower. And..like any other modification...perhaps even more so because it so easily lends itself to misuse...there can be a reliabity and durability price to pay.

Nitrous oxide is a colorless, non-flammable gas. It has a slightly sweet taste and odor. It is non-toxic and non-irritating and when inhaled in small quantitites can produce mild hysteria and giggling or laughter. This is were the nickname "laughing gas" comes form. When inhaled in pure form it will cause death by asphyxiation because at atmospheric temperatures and pressure, the oxygen in nitrous oxide is not available to the body.

A property of nitrous oxide is that at about 565 degrees F., it breaks down into nitrogen and oxygen. When it is introduced into the intake tract of an internal combustion engine, it is sucked into the combustion chamber and, on the compression stroke, when the charge air temperature reachs 565 deg., a very oxygen-rich mixture results. If we add extra fuel during nitrous oxide injection, the effect is like a super charger or increasing the compression ratio of the engine. Automotive nitrous systems work like the automotive eqivalent of a jet's "afterburner" and is used for short duration extra bursts of power.

Nitrous oxide has this effect because it has a higher percentage of oxygen content than does the air in the atmosphere. Nitrous has 36% oxygen by weight and the atmosphere has 23%. Additionally, nitrous oxide is 50% more dense than air at the same pressure. Thus, a cubic foot of nitrous oxide contains 2.3 times as much oxygen as a cubic foot of air. Just do a bit of math in your head and you can see if we substitute some nitrous oxide for some of the air going into an engine than add the appropriate amount of additional fuel, the engine is going to put out more power.

Simply stated, nitrous oxide injection is very much like a supercharger or a compression ratio increase in that, during combustion, it can dramatically increase the dynamic cylinder pressure in the engine.

Of course, when we significantly increase the cylinder pressure in the engine, we also increase the engine's tendancy to detonate. This is why almost all nitrous motors require retarded spark timing during nitrous oxide operation. The cylinder pressure increase is also why, when misused or improperly installed, operation with nitrous causes problems with head gasket seal and failures of the rings or pistons. I should point out that any number of things that put an engine into severe detonation, such as too much boost from a supercharger, low octane fuel, excessive compression ratio or overly lean air-fuel ratio will also cause the same kinds of damage.

Another challenge with a nitrous oxide system is getting the delivery of nitrous oxide and additinonal fuel at the correct proportions. If you feed nitrous to the engine without enough extra fuel, the lean air/nitrous to fuel mixture will make the detonation problem even worse. Combustion temperatures will skyrocket and catistropic failure is certain to occur. If the proportion is such that too much fuel is delivered, the power advantage degrades rapidly.

As you can see, nitrous oxide is like any other power increasing modification in that, when used wisely and installed properly, it works well. Then used foolishy or installed incorectly it can significantly reduced the reliability/durability of your engine.

Small doses of nitrous oxide can be used in stock engines to gain 25-35% more power. In my opinion, any more than nitrous than that with a stock engine compromises durability too much. This is not only true of nitrous but any modification. Take a stock 82 or 84 engine, up the horsepower to 300hp and do nothing to improve durability and your engine will eventually suffer. Once you pass the 35% power increase mark with nitrous oxide you need to look at things like forged pistons, better connectiing rods, better bearings, etc.

Nitrous oxide is also a great value on a dollar-per-unit-power increase when installed and operated properly. The downside, of course, is the fun ends quiclky. The power boost lasts as long as the nitrous. The average bottle is a 20 pounder and with a street V8 that might be worth 20 seconds of use.

So, nitrous oxide is not the instant-engine-failure many people think it is. When used properly and when dispensed by a properly designed and installed system nitrous oxide can be responsible for some phenominal increases in power.

cYa
Hib Halverson

augydog

[vicSi]

so the point of this whole essay cus i did read it is, if nitrous is installed improperly it can f**k up your engine and if you do installed properly then good for you.

[Tom1222]

Originally Posted by vicSi

so the point of this whole essay cus i did read it is, if nitrous is installed improperly it can f**k up your engine and if you do installed properly then good for you.

It's not only the installation but also the proper balance between Nitrous, fuel and timing that come into play. Any Monkey with tools can install a Nitrous kit. Setting it up properly for your application is a whole different story. And Nitrous, no matter how you slice it is never "GOOD" for you.
Any mod that increases Cylinder pressure by tremendous amounts no matter how well it is set up will put more wear and tear on your engine.
Simple fact.

[2RotorMotor]

Listen bottom line, n20 is THE BEST power adder. Not only is there no lag, but uniform gains are seen all through out the power band from when you press the button, till you let go... Its better than s/c and turbo... NOw.. The problem with nitrous, is that same reason that makes it a superior power adder. When you add an extra 100-200hp, the tq that it creates is instant and kind of "shocks" the rods/pistons.. That "shock" is what cause engine damage. Now progressive setup's are really good, which they deliver the n2o like a turbo would, linear. But thats realy expensive, and its a bitch to use it consistently. But As far as 75shot, this car takes it like nothing.. It wants more and has no problem @ all.

[Tom1222]

Another Limitation with Nitrous is the bottle. A 10 lbs bottle will last about 30 seconds or less. A turbo or Supercharger last forever.

[DAB2005]

Let me clarify a couple things for you guys the forging process used for the oem rods and pistons is of nowhere near the quality of a true aftermaker style JE Wiseco style piston. it is however better than your older style aluminum cast pistons but not of a high enough quality to warrant excessive abuse.

nitrous prefers nigher compression. nitrous doesnt react the same way in the combustion chamber are heated turbo/sc iinduction. you will notice that the majority of nitrous honda engines have always been built with higher compression pistons. so all the people on here saying the R18 motor is better suited for nitrous than the k20 are off their rocker. to properly setup a nitrous system i would recommend a window switch taking the guess work out your hand when to engage and disengage the spray. the window swicth should be setup to shut off aroung 300rpm prior to the rev limit. dont want to hit the fuel cut with the solenoids still on.

[FckThatSht]

Nitrous is for bitches, get a turbo or supercharger

[Tom1222]

Originally Posted by DAB2005

Let me clarify a couple things for you guys the forging process used for the oem rods and pistons is of nowhere near the quality of a true aftermaker style JE Wiseco style piston. it is however better than your older style aluminum cast pistons but not of a high enough quality to warrant excessive abuse.

nitrous prefers nigher compression. nitrous doesnt react the same way in the combustion chamber are heated turbo/sc iinduction. you will notice that the majority of nitrous honda engines have always been built with higher compression pistons. so all the people on here saying the R18 motor is better suited for nitrous than the k20 are off their rocker. to properly setup a nitrous system i would recommend a window switch taking the guess work out your hand when to engage and disengage the spray. the window swicth should be setup to shut off aroung 300rpm prior to the rev limit. dont want to hit the fuel cut with the solenoids still on.

I hate to differ but unless you are building a total race car and not a street car you want a lower compression piston so you can add more nitrous since it incredibly will increase your compression ratio and if your timing isn't sufficiently retarded and you don't have enough fuel then you are running into a lean condition and your engine will self destruct. Sure you can have high compression pistons but you wont be able to use a very high shot of boost with it. Most stock kits don't recommend more than 55-65 shot of Nitrous with our Si engines. Also the activation switch is hooked into your throttle sensor and it will only activate past 3500 rpm at WOT. Which is a good thing because you really don't want it anywhere below that.

[HAQER]

That's what I would want, where it kicks in at WOT over 3500rpm. That way you don't have to press a button or worry about anything like that.

On that note, if I wanted to drive around on the street and floor it without the NOS kicking in, is there a way to shut it off without actually going over to the bottle and doing something?

If there isn't a way to do this, do the people who have NOS just never WOT when they don't want to use NOS? I don't know if I could drive around always under full throttle.

[RedSIinPA]

If you can't install it, you probably shouldn't use it. If you can't understand it, you probably shouldn't use it. Use your friend, Google, to read for a few hours and educate yourself before ever considering purchasing a nitrous kit. there are a hundred sites that explain clearly how this works. if you still don't get it, be content with your car the way it is.

Yes the Si has forged internals for those of you still asking. Not having foglights has nothing to do with the attention paid to the enginerring of the K20Z3. Yes this is a huge asset if you're considering forced induction or running the bottle, as other stock honda engines such as the H22A were not so safe running 75 shots. this one is reportedly safe running 75 (by several members of this board) and that alone says a lot to me about this engine.

And for the esteemed member "FCKTHATSHT", pull your head out of your ass. Sometimes I wish I were a mod so I could ban people who make half-assed comments.

[Tom1222]

Originally Posted by HAQER

That's what I would want, where it kicks in at WOT over 3500rpm. That way you don't have to press a button or worry about anything like that.

On that note, if I wanted to drive around on the street and floor it without the NOS kicking in, is there a way to shut it off without actually going over to the bottle and doing something?

If there isn't a way to do this, do the people who have NOS just never WOT when they don't want to use NOS? I don't know if I could drive around always under full throttle.

Of course you can. There is an arming switch that activates the system and the throttlesensor activates the Nitrous at WOT over 3500 rpm.
You can also get all sorts of accessories like remote bottle turn on and off,
bottle heater, pressure gauge, fuel/gas gauge, etc... Should be fairly easy to install.

[HAQER]

Originally Posted by RedSIinPA

If you can't install it, you probably shouldn't use it. If you can't understand it, you probably shouldn't use it. Use your friend, Google, to read for a few hours and educate yourself before ever considering purchasing a nitrous kit. there are a hundred sites that explain clearly how this works. if you still don't get it, be content with your car the way it is.

Yes the Si has forged internals for those of you still asking. Not having foglights has nothing to do with the attention paid to the enginerring of the K20Z3. Yes this is a huge asset if you're considering forced induction or running the bottle, as other stock honda engines such as the H22A were not so safe running 75 shots. this one is reportedly safe running 75 (by several members of this board) and that alone says a lot to me about this engine.

And for the esteemed member "FCKTHATSHT", pull your head out of your ass. Sometimes I wish I were a mod so I could ban people who make half-assed comments.

I know this has been discussed on another thread, but I am pretty sure we only have forged rods. We don't have all forged internals on the Si.

[RedSIinPA]

Originally Posted by HAQER

I know this has been discussed on another thread, but I am pretty sure we only have forged rods. We don't have all forged internals on the Si.

This is true. I made the mistake I loathe to make, which is repeating what I hear instead of what I know. :rolleyes: my bad.

[type-si]

i saw a NOS bottle displaying at my honda service, is that means they can install those without voding the warranty?

[CaliGuy]

Originally Posted by type-si

i saw a NOS bottle displaying at my honda service, is that means they can install those without voding the warranty?

Thats a bit shocking...Go read the Moss-Magnussen Warranty Act. Yes and no is the answer you seek young jedi....

[Nox]

When ford had the Nitrous installed from Saleen on the focus, it came with no bottle hooked up. They stated clearly in documents and press releases about the car that any activation of the system voided powertrain warranty immediately.

In the real world the MM warranty act is harder to rely on than people think. You have to fight them with an attorney, go to court, etc....they tie it up and sometimes it can take years to get a resolution. Most people finally end up eating the repair cost, so they can enjoy the damn car.

With all that said I had nitrous on my GTO with less than 100 miles on the odometer. I actually picked my kit up within 30 minutes of leaving dealer. :)

[2RotorMotor]

Originally Posted by HAQER

I know this has been discussed on another thread, but I am pretty sure we only have forged rods. We don't have all forged internals on the Si.

The rods are what usually go when spraying, since the power is basically on/off... But a 75-100shot wont do anything to our motors...

[CivicWithNav]

so stock TPS will only give WOT signal past 3500 rpm?

I had zex kit before and def would like to get zex again.